[Gareth Williams]

Gareth

That sounds a bit ominous!  I can't imagine that land would be freed up for new holes?

I don't know the full details for this and what or might not happen in relation the lease renewal. There is talk of the two current courses being blended into one but suspect that is a last resort I would think.

I can take some pics of the land that is currently being cleared if you like?

[Paul_Turner]

Gareth

Yes photos would be great.

It would be a travesty if a club of Sunningdale's means can't secure the future of both courses.  What could St John's College do with the land other than the current arrangement?  Develop it?

[BCrosby]

I am astonished to learn that Sunningdale Golf Club doesn't own its golf course. Is that common in England?

Bob

[Paul_Turner]

Bob

I think Lytham is similar and  has a lease from the town.

I can't believe there are even rumours of this happening at Sunningdale.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Biggest land owners in England I have been told.

1.  Government
2.  Royal family
3.  Oxford Univ., they do a lot of 99 year leases, including many of the biggest high rises in London.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Biggest land owners in England I have been told.

1.  Government
2.  Royal family
3.  Oxford Univ., they do a lot of 99 year leases, including many of the biggest high rises in London.

Quite likely accurate Lynn.  IN this case the land was/is owned by  St John's College Cambridge since 1524. 
Two builder bros built a house ‘Ridgemont’ near the 9th green of the new course.  TA and GA Roberts then organised 100 keen golfers and the book gets vague but I assume a lease was taken out in 1899.  Likely this was for 99 years.  However the land for the extension to the New would have been a later date and its possible both are still  being renegotiated.


Many clubs started in this way.  Most bought the land at a later date.  In many cases once Golf courses become established the chance of getting planning permission for housing lessens and the Landlord eventually sells up.  Cambridge College would take a longer term view of the value of land than most.

[Sean_A]

I am astonished to learn that Sunningdale Golf Club doesn't own its golf course. Is that common in England?

Bob

Bob

Neither does Swinley.  Incidentally, I think a major reason green fees have gone up at these courses isn't just down to supply/demand - its also because of much higher rents which more accurately reflect what the land is worth.  I think in the case of Swinley, the higher rent is the biggest reason riff raff like me have been allowed to play the course.  I think 25 years ago it was much more diffciult to gain access.

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

The problem comes when the land owner is a charity like St Johns College this means the trustees have a LEGAL responsibility to achieve the highest rent, sentiment cannot come into it. St Johns College is worth around £500m!

[Paul_Turner]

The problem comes when the land owner is a charity like St Johns College this means the trustees have a LEGAL responsibility to achieve the highest rent, sentiment cannot come into it. St Johns College is worth around £500m!

Mark

But I can't believe there would be much competition to bid up the rent value?  What else could the land be used for?  Surely planning permission would never be granted to develop that land?  If it was public land It would be designated as a SSI like Chobham Common.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mark has a good point they have to seek the highest rent.  IN the past decade the following occurred.  The world famous River Cafe is half owned by Ruth Rogers the wife of the architect Richard. The restaurant is located on the ground floor toft h building where the Architectural Practice is situated. Both businesses pay rent to the owner of the building which is Richard Rogers personal self administered pension fund.  Under the law his advisors had to invite other top restaurateurs’ to submit their bid for the restaurant premises.  A deal was done. 

A more pertinent example might be.
Home Park GC a private club founded in 1895, was on land owned by the Crown Estate.  They didn't take their negotiations seriously and it's now Hampton Court GC, a mix of members club and pay and play managed by the (mis)appropriately named Crown Golf.


From their website
http://www.hamptoncourtgolf.co.uk/history.htm

   2001
January
Historic Royal Palaces elect to put golf facilities operation out to tender.
February 28th
Home Park is closed to members and visitors due to the foot and mouth outbreak.
April 10th
Home Park is re-opened.
September 1st
American Golf (UK) Ltd took up the operation of the golf facilities at Home Park, formed the new club, Hampton Court Palace Golf Club and undertook to make considerable improvements to the course and build a new clubhouse. The members of Home Park Golf Club were invited to join the new club and 400 decided to do so.

[BCrosby]

Mark makes the key (and quite worrisome) point.

Thinking out loud, the St John's College trustees probably have a fiduciary duty to obtain a 'market' return on trust assets. That can mean a wide range on yields, but if comparable, privately held properties in the Chobham area are returning X and Sunningdale is paying rent of X-Y, then Sunny will be asked to step up and pay a rent increase of Y. If Sunny is unwilling or unable to do so, the trust will be obligated to rent the property to someone who can pay a market rate Or perhaps the trust has other rights. Don't know.

This is all very surprising. I don't know of an important private club in the US that does not hold title to its golf course in fee simple.

Bob  

[Mark Chaplin]

The truth is this is probably all about renewal negotiations, trustees say X which scares the tenant and the rent goes up considerably but the tenant remains happy(ish) and the landlord doesn't want to lose the tenant. Undoubtedly both sides in this case will be aware of the fate of Home Park.

Say Sunningdale were paying 500,000 a year and a Trump like character offered 2,000,000 a year the landlord would have to listen.

[Sean_A]

The truth is this is probably all about renewal negotiations, trustees say X which scares the tenant and the rent goes up considerably but the tenant remains happy(ish) and the landlord doesn't want to lose the tenant. Undoubtedly both sides in this case will be aware of the fate of Home Park.

Say Sunningdale were paying 500,000 a year and a Trump like character offered 2,000,000 a year the landlord would have to listen.

Mark

I am guessing the club has some rights to the course.  In other words, they rent the land, not the course.  So if a Trump came along and offered X amount more rent, the club could tell Trump he isn't getting the course (as it is recognized!) unless he pays the club a fee as well. 

Paul

Once the club is heavily invested in the course/house the owner of the land doesn't need an alternate bidder to get fair value rent. 

Ciao

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean I doubt the club would get any fee why would they if the lease had concluded they would have no rights on the land.

I have not heard of Home Park receiving compo and the circumstances are identical(ish). If you rent a house and make improvements the landlord doesn't compensate you for the improvements when you leave.

I would think there is 0% chance Sunningdale GC will fold but a 100% the rent will rise.

Bob - by the period 1880-1900 most of the best land close to London would have been owned and of value unlike the surrounds of major cities in other countries. Just look howRoysl Melbourne had to keep moving as the city developed.

Lynn - The Forestry Commission, National Trust, Ministry of Defence and Crown Estates are our largest landowners by acreage not value. The Oxbridge Colleges are wealthy landowners along with the Church and the Aristocracy.

[Sean_A]

Chappers

I am saying I doubt the club has any obligation to hand over the land as a golf course. 

Ciao 

[Mark Chaplin]

Sean - obviously everything is tied up in the terms if the lease, I'd be surprised if the club doesn't need permission to make material changes to the land so if the lease finished I doubt a club could legally plough the land. As seen at Home Park hundreds of members went to the new operator.

[Gareth Williams]

At the risk of sounding like a gossiping old lady ( ) my understanding was that Sunningdale Golf Club entered negotiations with the College some 8-9 years ago and they stalled very quickly. Allegedly the club were not prepared to entertain the increase being sought and left the negotiation table.

Since then there has been an awful lot of land/ground/tree clearing that could be (I don't know this for a fact but but it would make sense) in readiness for some of the present holes/course being "lost" and needing to be replaced.

Should this worse case happen I believe there are around 6-8 holes that are possibly affected-or maybe lost if the worst occurrred.

The reality is that the club will probably find the money needed to extend the lease but the fact there is evidence of room being made for new/replacement holes suggests there is more to this than meets the eye... ?

[Gareth Williams]

The problem comes when the land owner is a charity like St Johns College this means the trustees have a LEGAL responsibility to achieve the highest rent, sentiment cannot come into it. St Johns College is worth around £500m!

Mark

But I can't believe there would be much competition to bid up the rent value?  What else could the land be used for?  Surely planning permission would never be granted to develop that land?  If it was public land It would be designated as a SSI like Chobham Common.

The land around Chobham Common is so well protected you wouldn't believe it....

The land in question isn't really accessible by any local roads at the moment so it's hard to see what it could be used for as an alternative way to derive income for the College - unless they are purely taking a long term ownership view with no plan to develop the land should they take it back from the club.

[Paul_Turner]

At the risk of sounding like a gossiping old lady ( ) my understanding was that Sunningdale Golf Club entered negotiations with the College some 8-9 years ago and they stalled very quickly. Allegedly the club were not prepared to entertain the increase being sought and left the negotiation table.

Since then there has been an awful lot of land/ground/tree clearing that could be (I don't know this for a fact but but it would make sense) in readiness for some of the present holes/course being "lost" and needing to be replaced.

Should this worse case happen I believe there are around 6-8 holes that are possibly affected-or maybe lost if the worst occurrred.

The reality is that the club will probably find the money needed to extend the lease but the fact there is evidence of room being made for new/replacement holes suggests there is more to this than meets the eye... ?

Gareth

Clearing land for replacement holes doesn't make any sense to me.  I don't see how that would change the lease unless substantially less acreage was being used.

If there is clearing going on for the 3 dormant Colt holes on the New, then that's a different matter...an alterntive loop as suggested in the feature interview.  I guess the course could then be returned to its original routing and the current 6,7,8 stretch abandoned which would save some acreage.  But then we lose the awesome 6th

[Tony_Muldoon]

Speculation but...

On here we like to think that clubs like Walton Heath have been clearing out trees for the good of the golf. However there is a great deal of pressure from the outside world, "environmentalists" that first arose more than 30 years ago, to actively manage heaths and to prevent the invasion of trees that grazing livestock used to control.

It would not surprise me in the slightest if the trustee of St John’s  College, the landlords, were interested in this subject.  If they are the long term trustee’s of this land they want it preserved as Heath?   Reading Ran's interview I thought there was a larger subtext than the old members are agin it.

[Paul_Turner]

Tony

I think restoring both courses to heath could possibly help.

[Gareth Williams]

At the risk of sounding like a gossiping old lady ( ) my understanding was that Sunningdale Golf Club entered negotiations with the College some 8-9 years ago and they stalled very quickly. Allegedly the club were not prepared to entertain the increase being sought and left the negotiation table.

Since then there has been an awful lot of land/ground/tree clearing that could be (I don't know this for a fact but but it would make sense) in readiness for some of the present holes/course being "lost" and needing to be replaced.

Should this worse case happen I believe there are around 6-8 holes that are possibly affected-or maybe lost if the worst occurrred.

The reality is that the club will probably find the money needed to extend the lease but the fact there is evidence of room being made for new/replacement holes suggests there is more to this than meets the eye... ?

Gareth

Clearing land for replacement holes doesn't make any sense to me.  I don't see how that would change the lease unless substantially less acreage was being used.

If there is clearing going on for the 3 dormant Colt holes on the New, then that's a different matter...an alterntive loop as suggested in the feature interview.  I guess the course could then be returned to its original routing and the current 6,7,8 stretch abandoned which would save some acreage.  But then we lose the awesome 6th

"Clearing land for replacement holes doesn't make any sense to me.  I don't see how that would change the lease unless substantially less acreage was being used"

I suspect that the possible point here Paul is that the club could/would use land that they owned as opposed that land leased from the College.

The land that has been cleared to the left of the current 9th already looks like a golf hole to be honest - and could be room for 2-3 maybe. Will take a couple of pics this week and post them up for you.

[Gareth Williams]

At the risk of sounding like a gossiping old lady ( ) my understanding was that Sunningdale Golf Club entered negotiations with the College some 8-9 years ago and they stalled very quickly. Allegedly the club were not prepared to entertain the increase being sought and left the negotiation table.

Since then there has been an awful lot of land/ground/tree clearing that could be (I don't know this for a fact but but it would make sense) in readiness for some of the present holes/course being "lost" and needing to be replaced.

Should this worse case happen I believe there are around 6-8 holes that are possibly affected-or maybe lost if the worst occurrred.

The reality is that the club will probably find the money needed to extend the lease but the fact there is evidence of room being made for new/replacement holes suggests there is more to this than meets the eye... ?

Gareth,

That would be a real shame if that were to happen. I imagine it would be an extreme last resort, though, as you say. Have these negotiations had any appreciable affect on the club's attitude towards taking new members? Last I heard, the waiting list was about 3 years or so - presumably this is quite a bit down from what it would have been in the past? That is if clubs like Royal Mid Surrey are anything to go by, where the waiting list was at least 10 years prior to the clubhouse fire a few years back. Now a category of "temporary membership" exists to encourage those without proposers to apply.

Brian,

I'm not really sure on the possible effect to the membership side to be honest.





 

[Mark Chaplin]

Brian - I doubt the recession has had any effect on Sunningdale membership let alone some lease negotiations. The finest clubs will always have  unlimited numbers of people wanting to join.

[Gareth Williams]

As promised/requested a few pictures of the clearance work done already and currently in operation by the contractors.

If you walk down the fairway of the 9th hole on the New course and then over the brow of the hill, then look directly to the left over the public footpath this is the first view of the work being done.



This is the same view running parallel to the 9th fairway - you will note (if you know the area) that a number of public footpaths are now closed/removed in this area. This work was commenced about one year ago but the tree clearance and earthwork has only really taken hold of late.



A similar view but this one also shows new (as in today!) tree clearance to the rear of the current 10th hole (New) towards the 10th of the Old. There has also been extensive clearance on top of this hill behind and to the side of the current 10th hole (New) - which is where the tee used to be before the war.

From this view (with your back to the 9th hole) looking down the area cleared looks like a new hole being carved into the tree's;



Here you can see the extent of the tree felling currently being done near to the 9th/10th holes;



Similar but clearer view...would shape up a pretty downhill par 4 from an elevated tee position with the green framed by the wooded area left and the back (artistic licence applied for here  )



You will note in this picture how two tree's to the middle and left side have been kept (and one silver birch) where this was until a few months ago dense woodland with extensive tree cover.

What is clear is that the heathland area to the right of the current 6th Hole (New) is unaffected but it is this land (the 6th, 7th and 8th on the New - plus the surrounding heath land and other holes on that side of the property) that is "rumoured" to be part of the land that could be "lost" if the lease negotiations didn't reach a satisfactory conclusion.

At the moment it is not clear if the land where the old "Colt loop" was will be cleared and/or re-instated - or who owns it.

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