[Mike Hendren]

The redan threads got me to thinking.  The deep front bunkering of the redan is no big whoop for the man who can swing the sand wedge with modest aplomb.  

I can't fathom playing a Banks course without the trusty sand wedge.  Notably I played Forsgate with two older members who took great pains to play away from or around the deep greenside bunkers since they lacked the swing speed to extract themselves from them.  They also indicated the bunker depths there were a factor in an LPGA event moving away.  

I got up and down for par from the bunker fronting Knoll West's 18th.  I'd still be hacking away without the sand wedge. 

How has the sand wedge impacted golf course architecture in the U. S.?

Mike

[Mac Plumart]

I'll chime in and here and get the ball rolling...and I'll say the sand wedge has had a dramatic impact on golf course architecture.

As I've mentioned before, I have a set of hickory clubs that are designed to replicate a set from the 1890's (way before the sand wedge was invented).  The club I use to get out of bunkers is a smooth-faced 50 degree pseudo-niblick looking club.  Here is a picture of it from the place I bought it from...http://www.tommorrisclubs.com/clubdetails.php?cat_id=112...not the best picture, but anyway.

Now getting out of greenside bunkers is not really a massive problem, if you have the correct skill set and touch.  You've got to really open the face of the club to the sky and skim that ball off the sand.  It is doable, but not nearly as easy as with modern clubs. 

And the deeper the bunker, the more issues I have with this.  In fact, "Big Bertha" at Rivermont most likely requires as backwards shot out of it given my skill level with the hickories.



Downhill greenside bunker shots...UGH!!!  Try stopping this shot with a smooth faced iron.  I always have to play to an area where if I do roll off the green, more trouble doesn't lurk.

It is my understanding that the 1920's era hickories had better niblicks, which made getting out of bunkers a bit easier.  And, of course, they had grooves so stopping the ball should be easier as well.

I'd love for people with more expertise than me to chime in...BUT I think this type of technological advantage has had a major impact on golf course architecture.

[Tom_Doak]

Michael:

The sand wedge made a huge difference, because after its invention, players no longer actually steered away from bunkers.  There is no point in playing away from a greenside bunker and abandoning a chance at birdie if you think you've got a reasonable chance to get up and down for par even if you miss, and won't make worse than bogey no matter what you do.

That is why the invention of the sand wedge comes just a few years before architects turned to water hazards as a major line of defense.

[Lou_Duran]

Perhaps substantial because gca caters to the top 1%.  Within my peer group I am considered to be a good player out of the sand, and better than average with the putter.  Yet, I get up and down from the sand around 20% of the time, so to me, I steer away from the bunkers.  If what Tom D notes is true (greater use of water), maybe that's part of the reason why the avg handicap is mostly unchanged for years despite more user-friendly equipment.

[TEPaul]

"How has the sand wedge impacted golf course architecture in the U. S.?"


In my opinion, its impact was huge, probably just as much if not more than any other I&B or "playability" advancement, even though, oddly, few seem aware of it! Gene Sarazen was famous for a lot of his accomplishments with golf but THAT, in the final analysis, may've been his most significant.

[Mike Hendren]

That is why the invention of the sand wedge comes just a few years before architects turned to water hazards as a major line of defense.

Interesting.  I did not  make that connection but it makes perfect sense.

Mike

[Garland Bayley]

I think effect of the sand wedge invention is overblown. How is it that I can take any of my other lofted clubs, lay them open and play an explosion shot out of a bunker as well as I can with my "sand wedge"? How is it that Seve could get out of a green side bunker with a 3 iron? How is it that Bubba Watson can play an explosion shot out of a green side bunker with a fairway wood and post the video on the web?

I think the advent of the use of water hazards being a result of the invention of the sand wedge is highly unlikely.

Over and out.

[Mac Plumart]

Gambers...

Is your comment about your play out of a bunker an indictment of your sand wedge abililty or does your longer iron play out of a bunker deserve serious kudos?

Also, Seve was perhaps the greatest shot maker in the history of the game.  Using him as an example may not prove any point at all.

On Bubba's shot, it was so amazing it is featured on Youtube like you said.  As is Phil's backwards shot.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Downhill greenside bunker shots...UGH!!!  Try stopping this shot with a smooth faced iron.  I always have to play to an area where if I do roll off the green, more trouble doesn't lurk.
...

In an explosion shot, the club face does not contact the ball. Can you explain to me what effect grooves have if the club face does not contact the ball?

Also, if you read my previous post, I stated I could use a "lofted club". By that I meant 9, PW, GW, SW, LW. I made no claims about getting out of a bunker with a "longer iron".

If the sand wedge is essential to get out of green side bunkers, why do teaching pros and tour pros writing in golf mags tell you to play an explosion shot for a long bunker shot with a 9 iron, for example?

Over and out

[David_Tepper]

Garland -

The bounce on the sole of a sand wedge makes it a unique club in the bag and makes it far and away the most suitable to hit out of the sand, except possibly when the sand is very firmly packed.

The reason 8- or 9-irons are sometimes suggested for long bunker shots is that the lesser loft of those clubs carries the ball further forward. It is a simple as that.

DT 

[John Kirk]

Geez Gambers,

Especially with these modern grooved sand wedges, you can induce a lot of spin by an aggressive, accelerating move through the ball, combined with taking a smaller, shallower "divot" of sand.  Modern sand wedges make the short, short-sided sand save much easier.  Not easy, but easier.

[Garland Bayley]

Geez Gambers,

Especially with these modern grooved sand wedges, you can induce a lot of spin by an aggressive, accelerating move through the ball, combined with taking a smaller, shallower "divot" of sand.  Modern sand wedges make the short, short-sided sand save much easier.  Not easy, but easier.

John,

I didn't say the modern sand wedge didn't induce spin, I asked how the grooves made a difference, since it is my understanding that the club face does not contact the ball.

Clearly taking a shallow "divot" allows the club head to move the sand next to the ball more, but what difference do the grooves play?

[Garland Bayley]

Garland -

The bounce on the sole of a sand wedge makes it a unique club in the bag and makes it far and away the most suitable to hit out of the sand, except possibly when the sand is very firmly packed.

The reason 8- or 9-irons are sometimes suggested for long bunker shots is that the lesser loft of those clubs carries the ball further forward. It is a simple as that.

DT 

As you probably know, I am not the best golfer in the world, but I can not discern a difference in result between swinging a sand wedge with significant bounce vs. swinging a lob wedge with very little bounce when I lay the club face open like you are supposed to. However, I have discovered I can discern a difference in result between these two when I swing with the club face square to the ball.

So, is it the sand wedge bounce that I understand GS added, or is it the proper swing and club head position that made a difference in green side bunker play?

[David_Tepper]

Garland -

Just because you have not been able to discern the difference between using a sand wedge (w/bounce) and using a lob wedge (w/little or no bounce) when the club face is wide open does not mean there is not one.

No doubt opening the clubface of almost any short iron creates a certain amount of bounce. The width of the sole of a wedge can also impact how it plays from the sand.

The firmer the sand, the easier it is to get away using a wedge with less bounce. Having plenty of bounce on your wedge certainly becomes more beneficial the softer and deeper the sand is.

DT 

       
 

[Garland Bayley]

Garland -

Just because you have not been able to discern the difference between using a sand wedge (w/bounce) and using a lob wedge (w/little or no bounce) when the club face is wide open does not mean there is not one.

No doubt opening the clubface of almost any short iron creates a certain amount of bounce. The width of the sole of a wedge can also impact how it plays from the sand.

The firmer the sand, the easier it is to get away using a wedge with less bounce. Having plenty of bounce on your wedge certainly becomes more beneficial the softer and deeper the sand is.

DT 

       
 

But yet we see highly skilled golfers executing flop shots from balls sitting up in the grass where the club head makes no contact with anything remotely solid such as bunker sand or the ground. It just seems to me it is a skill shot using proper swing and posture. Bounce on the wedge has nothing to do here. Aren't they essentially executing the same shot out of soft sand; and depending on skill, swing, and posture instead of bounce? Lefty is noted for switching clubs for bunker shots and it would seem he takes no account for bounce.

Over and out

[David_Tepper]

"Aren't they essentially executing the same shot out of soft sand; and depending on skill, swing, and posture instead of bounce?"

Garland -

No.

DT

[Pat Burke]

I think effect of the sand wedge invention is overblown. How is it that I can take any of my other lofted clubs, lay them open and play an explosion shot out of a bunker as well as I can with my "sand wedge"? How is it that Seve could get out of a green side bunker with a 3 iron? How is it that Bubba Watson can play an explosion shot out of a green side bunker with a fairway wood and post the video on the web?

I think the advent of the use of water hazards being a result of the invention of the sand wedge is highly unlikely.

Over and out.

Why is it, Seve still had a sand wedge in his bag when he played??

[Garland Bayley]

Why is it, Seve still had a sand wedge in his bag when he played??

Dave Schmidt (Shivas) answered that pretty well as you will find as you keep reading.

[JMEvensky]

Pat Burke,did Seve's peers consider his bunker game other worldly?

I once caddied in his group during a Pro Am.I watched him hit ~ 10 bunker shots before the round.I swear 5 other Pro's were watching and were as amazed as I was.

[Mac Plumart]

Hey guys...just tuning back into this thread.

Garland/Gambers...Sorry if I made some errors in my last post, I tried to get my post in with just minutes to spare before my tee time.  However, I still can't seem to come to grips with your argument at all.  You are saying, I think, that the sand wedge wasn't an important breakthrough in golf and, therefore, it has had little impact on golf course architecture.  I don't think you have said that directly, but it seems that you are implying it again and again.  If that is your stance, I suppose we can agree to disagree...as I've tried to see your point of view and can't.

On your point about the grooves not affecting sand shots, I believe you are correct.  So, that fact that downhill bunker shots are much harder to stop with my 1890's era hickories would have to be because of the loft difference, correct?  If I use the appropriate swing and one stops and the other usually doesn't, and the grooves make no difference, then the only thing that changes is the angle the ball hits the green on.  Right?  Steeper angle=more chance of stopping.  Therefore, the more loft on the club...the easier to get the ball to stop...right?

On your point about getting out of bunkers with clubs other than sand wedges, I think you are correct.  I can get out with my hickories...I can get out with a modern PW...I can get out with a modern 3 iron.  But, it is much easier to get out with a modern sand wedge (I prefer 60 degrees).  And it is much easier to control distance with the modern clubs as well...and it is much easier to control trajectory.  Again, I can do it with hickories...it just takes a much higher degree of skill and, therefore, I really try to avoid greenside bunker when playing hickory...especially if they are steep.

What Tom Doak said makes logical sense to me...about water hazards and the sand wedge.  I'll dig around to see if I can see any trends develop around that time.

Again, I think I see your point regarding the main topic of this thread...I don't agree with it...but that really doesn't mean all that much...in fact it may provide support that you are correct    





  

[Tom_Doak]

Mac,

I was looking in Robert Trent Jones' book he wrote in the 1980's for some confirmation of my idea, but only got it indirectly.  Mr. jones said that water was his favorite hazard, and elsewhere, that he favored bunkers (fairway and green side) where recovery was possible, and not the pot bunkers you find in Scotland.

Dick Wilson felt much the same way, and the two of them dominated architecture from 1945-1965, so you can put the growing influence of water down to the two of them.  But it doesn't appear to be a deliberate substitution of more penalty (water) to balance out the influence of the sand wedge, as far as I can find.

Incidentally, I think it was Tom Watson who changed the approach to golf strategy for many Tour pros.  Palmer played heroically but often fell shirt as a result; Nicklaus played conservatively and dominated for many years, until Watson came along.  Watson's short game was just so good back then that he could attack the hole with impunity, because he knew he had a good chance to save par even if he failed to pull off the daring approach, and Seve was right behind him.

[jeffwarne]

Mac,

I was looking in Robert Trent Jones' book he wrote in the 1980's for some confirmation of my idea, but only got it indirectly.  Mr. jones said that water was his favorite hazard, and elsewhere, that he favored bunkers (fairway and green side) where recovery was possible, and not the pot bunkers you find in Scotland.

Dick Wilson felt much the same way, and the two of them dominated architecture from 1945-1965, so you can put the growing influence of water down to the two of them.  But it doesn't appear to be a deliberate substitution of more penalty (water) to balance out the influence of the sand wedge, as far as I can find.

Incidentally, I think it was Tom Watson who changed the approach to golf strategy for many Tour pros.  Palmer played heroically but often fell shirt as a result; Nicklaus played conservatively and dominated for many years, until Watson came along.  Watson's short game was just so good back then that he could attack the hole with impunity, because he knew he had a good chance to save par even if he failed to pull off the daring approach, and Seve was right behind him.

I would argue that while the evolution of the sand wedge was important,post Golden age improved maintenance caused by expectations , as well as dumbing down of bunkers(in this case often caused by less money due to the depression and expectations), had more effect on architects feeling the need to use other hazards such as water to stifle recovery.
In other words the golden age bunkers were more severe and less well maintained than say the amoebas of the 60's and 70's.
I'd say a Raynor or Banks bunker instilled more fear than a Mitchell bunker-thus paving the way for less subtle and unrecoverable hazards and tall grass.

[Garland Bayley]

...
Incidentally, I think it was Tom Watson who changed the approach to golf strategy for many Tour pros.  Palmer played heroically but often fell shirt as a result; Nicklaus played conservatively and dominated for many years, until Watson came along.  Watson's short game was just so good back then that he could attack the hole with impunity, because he knew he had a good chance to save par even if he failed to pull off the daring approach, and Seve was right behind him.

I saw Gary Player on the golf channel recently making the claim that attacking the hole with impunity was the way he played, because he had no fear of bunkers.

[David_Tepper]

"Incidentally, I think it was Tom Watson who changed the approach to golf strategy for many Tour pros."

Tom Doak -

I have a vague recollection of reading in Julius Boros' book (Swing Easy, Hit Hard) that he became a more aggressive player on par-5's when he realized that, even if his 2nd shot landed in a greenside bunker, he was a good enough bunker player to give him a fair chance of getting up & down for birdie. 
 
Garland -

The reason Gary Player did not fear bunkers is that he likely spent more time on bunker practice than any of his peers. As a result, he became one of the 2 or 3 best bunkers players the game has ever seen. Being really, really good helps overcome fear!    

P.S. If you ever get a chance to see Gary Player give a clinic on bunker play, do not miss it.

DT

[Mac Plumart]

Jeff...

I think you make a great point here.  

"I would argue that while the evolution of the sand wedge was important,post Golden age improved maintenance caused by expectations , as well as dumbing down of bunkers(in this case often caused by less money due to the depression and expectations), had more effect on architects feeling the need to use other hazards such as water to stifle recovery."

At least for me, the maintenance issues are really hard to visualize.  Most of the courses I've played have pretty well maintained and manicured bunkers.  Therefore, it is hard for me to appreciate how hard some of the non-well maintained (is that even a word/phrase?!?) were to get out of.  In fact, I'd bet a lot of us can't fully appreciate the differences in bunkers between the eras.

The only perspective I have is when I played Aiken.  Many of the bunkers didn't have rakes in them and they appeared just to be as nature kept them.  Here is a picture of Mark Pritchett's lie in a fairway bunker.  He had a LONG approach shot into the green that, in addition to the issues with the lie, played uphill.  Wow!!

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