Did they avoid the dramatic dunes in the late 1800/ early 1900 links layouts ?

[mike_malone]

 The Carne/Enniscrone topic made me think of this. I know Portstewart was rerouted into the more dramatic dunes later.

[mike_malone]

 Or was it just that development took place where the dunes were more modest ?

[Rory Connaughton]

I think your premise is off Mike.  My sense is that routing through massive dunes may have been less common but it was not unheard of. The dunes at RCD are towering.  They just happen to be eroded enough to make up and over as well as between a viable option. The dunes at the Island are also pretty large and I am confident that there are plenty of other examples of courses that pre-date the 1940's where large dunes were part of the landscape.  I think that in places like Belmullet and Enniscrone, Ballyliffin and Portstewart, money was an issue.  Don't forget that Enniscrone did have holes in the high dunes (current 1, 12, 13 and at least one hole that is now part of the stand alone 9).  I also think that if you look at where the money was in Ireland during the end of the 19th and first half of the 20th century, it was concentrated on the east coast.  Clubs in the West and Northwest in general did not have the money that their east coast brethren had.  Perhaps Lahinch and Rosses Point are exceptions since they were started by local garrisons?

[DMoriarty]

Dates are date of publication of the photo.


St. George, Sandwich, circa 1894:


1897 Troon:


Prestwick circa 1906:








Muirfield, circa 1906:


Burnham, circa 1906:

[Tom_Doak]

While the pictures above show that early designers did not shy away from drama, I think they were much more practical than Donald Trump in shying away from unstable areas.  They just didn't have the $ or the technology or the will to try and tame an area too close to the sea where a hole might be buried by sand.  Prestwick and County Down may be dramatic but they are also very stable.

[Kris Shreiner]

Tom,

Some sound observations! On the Trumpbungle Dunes project, I've seen very little existing sward at all on the pictures I've seen of that land. It seems to be, in the main, a combination of: vast dunesland, washed-out, water collecting basins, wild, scrubby mounding and Sahara-like expanses of sand. The shots pictured of yesteryear all seem to have significant turf areas to contest the gauwf. Given those times, is there much record of extensive turfing of areas without much sward, or as you say, did they just look for more suitable sites to start with?

I've heard mention of rather elevated tee locations on some of theTrump's design changes. From your experience, given the stiff winds that area is subject to frequently, it would seem flighting and controlling the ball off such areas, especially at the back 8,000yd  tees the Donald will no doubt have, would be problematic, no? Also, how realistic is it to expecting significant, driving, shifting sand, not to impact the maintaining and playing integrity of areas in proximity to massive exposed dune areas near teeing and green sites?

[Tom_Doak]

Kris,

I can't comment on the Trump property since I have not been out on that site.  But, frequently the reason for "shifting sands" is that lots of sand is blowing off the beach at low tide up into the dunes.  If that's the issue, just going out there and turfing over it is not going to solve the problem alone; they will have to keep removing sand on a regular basis.  Waterville used to have a couple of holes that would get constantly topdressed from the beach, the 16th in particular, and it was hard to play an iron shot because the lies were so sandy.

Years ago Bill Coore and I were looking at doing a project on a links site in Ireland.  It was enormously different than what we've worked with at Bandon or Barnbougle because the dunes were much more stable ... it had been grazed for hundreds of years and fine grasses had already developed there instead of marram, so for most of the holes, you could simply start by mowing the sward of turf that was already there!  Of course, it was too environmentally sensitive to mow the grass, so that one never happened.

[Tom MacWood]

Just the opposite, Bernard Darwin often described the early design process like this: “I have no notion who laid out the Hayling links, but I fancy him rather a simple-minded creature, by no means without talent, who knew the kind of shots that amused him, and was not ashamed of enjoying them. He went out to survey the country and said, in the manner of Mr. Wemmick, ‘Hello, here’s a big hill; lets drive over it.’

[Kris Shreiner]

Tom,

Happy Holidays to you and the gang at Renaissance!

Thanks for the insights. That's an interesting point you mention about the grazing effects on the sward. Certainly at Machrihanish Dunes, the extensive decades of both cattle and sheep grazing seemed to have enhanced the turf to a surprisingly good quality, before there had even been much mowing. I assume, though that is the only true links course site I've actually walked in it's creation stages, that land grazing is critical in finding natural areas for golf which need less alteration by man.

[Kris Shreiner]

Tom,

Happy Holidays to you and the gang at Renaissance!

Thanks for the insights. That's an interesting point you mention about the grazing effects on the sward. Certainly at Machrihanish Dunes, the extensive decades of both cattle and sheep grazing seemed to have enhanced the turf to a surprisingly good quality, before there had even been much mowing. I assume, though that is the only true links course site I've actually walked in it's creation stages, that land grazing is critical in finding natural areas for golf which need less alteration by man.

[mike_malone]

 Tom MacWood,

  Those hills Darwin spoke of weren't dramatic especially at Rye which I understand was his first love. Some of the dunes on the west coast of Ireland approach or exceed 100 feet!

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Darwin was referring to the course at Hayling in that quote, which had very large dunes. He was very familar with the early courses over big dunes: Sandwich, County Down, Portrush, Prestwick, Aberdovey, Hayling, Saunton, Cruden Bay, etc. There are big dunes outside Western Ireland.

Aren't the two most famous holes at Lahinch directly over large dunes?

[mike_malone]

   I don't have an objective gauge of "dramatic" but 50 feet still seems less than dramatic to me.

[Niall C]

Mike
Darwin was referring to the course at Hayling in that quote, which had very large dunes. He was very familar with the early courses over big dunes: Sandwich, County Down, Portrush, Prestwick, Aberdovey, Hayling, Saunton, Cruden Bay, etc. There are big dunes outside Western Ireland.

Aren't the two most famous holes at Lahinch directly over large dunes?

Tom

I'm only familiar with Prestwick and Cruden Bay of the ones you've listed and I wouldn't say either of them are particularly duney. Certainly Prestwick incorporates a couple of dunes in the routing but largely from memory its rolling links land. Cruden Bay has some big dunes but largely the course skirts round about them. I think Tom D nailed it with his comments that early designers went for the most suitable turf which often wasn't amongst the dunes.

There was a thread last year on Montrose which was about Hary Colts attempts to redesign the course incorporating the dunes and eventually the club had to abandon the new holes because they simply couldn't be tamed.

Niall

[RSLivingston_III]

  I don't have an objective gauge of "dramatic" but 50 feet still seems less than dramatic to me.

Bear in mind that when that was written Irons, and lofted shots, had only been popularized about 40 years earlier and it was probably at that point they figured out they could add 'going over hazards and obstacles' to the options to challenge the golfer. The gutty did and does like to fly from lofted shots from iron clubs. But as you might have guessed, not as much as what modern tech has given you, so 50 ft. was a good challenge and was dramatic.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
Darwin was referring to the course at Hayling in that quote, which had very large dunes. He was very familar with the early courses over big dunes: Sandwich, County Down, Portrush, Prestwick, Aberdovey, Hayling, Saunton, Cruden Bay, etc. There are big dunes outside Western Ireland.

Aren't the two most famous holes at Lahinch directly over large dunes?

Tom

I'm only familiar with Prestwick and Cruden Bay of the ones you've listed and I wouldn't say either of them are particularly duney. Certainly Prestwick incorporates a couple of dunes in the routing but largely from memory its rolling links land. Cruden Bay has some big dunes but largely the course skirts round about them. I think Tom D nailed it with his comments that early designers went for the most suitable turf which often wasn't amongst the dunes.

There was a thread last year on Montrose which was about Hary Colts attempts to redesign the course incorporating the dunes and eventually the club had to abandon the new holes because they simply couldn't be tamed.

Niall

So I take it you agree agree with Mike.

[Tom_Doak]

A 50-foot dune in front of you would be VERY dramatic.  The rise to the green on the 7th at Old Macdonald started at about 50 feet, but we had to cut it down a good 20 feet so it would be playable.  I am not sure of the elevation change up to the top of the 3rd hole from the tee ... I would have to look back at the topo map ... but I don't think it is more than 50 feet.  And it's pretty dramatic.

I am trying to think of a hole where you play over a dune more than 50 feet high.  As I remember, the big bunkers at St. Enodoc and Sandwich are about 40 feet.  The Maiden at Sandwich was probably over 50 feet, but you don't play over it anymore.  The dunes at Ballybunion and Royal County Down are indeed more than 50 feet in places, but you don't play over them.

[Duncan Cheslett]

When the Victorian links courses were laid out around the British Isles, sites would have been chosen for their proximity to the local town and associated railway station as much as anything else. No-one would have wanted more than a short carriage ride from station or hotel to first tee.

Coastal towns are generally built at spots where access to the sea is easy i.e. not in areas of dramatic 50-100 ft sandhills.

The building of golf courses in wilder and more remote locations is surely a far more recent development driven by the ubiquity of the automobile.

[Niall C]

Mike
Darwin was referring to the course at Hayling in that quote, which had very large dunes. He was very familar with the early courses over big dunes: Sandwich, County Down, Portrush, Prestwick, Aberdovey, Hayling, Saunton, Cruden Bay, etc. There are big dunes outside Western Ireland.

Aren't the two most famous holes at Lahinch directly over large dunes?

Tom

I'm only familiar with Prestwick and Cruden Bay of the ones you've listed and I wouldn't say either of them are particularly duney. Certainly Prestwick incorporates a couple of dunes in the routing but largely from memory its rolling links land. Cruden Bay has some big dunes but largely the course skirts round about them. I think Tom D nailed it with his comments that early designers went for the most suitable turf which often wasn't amongst the dunes.

There was a thread last year on Montrose which was about Hary Colts attempts to redesign the course incorporating the dunes and eventually the club had to abandon the new holes because they simply couldn't be tamed.

Niall

So I take it you agree agree with Mike.

Not quite, I think they went for the best turf rather than avoiding the dunes as such. I would think that generally the best turf just wasn't in the dunes. The example of the Trump project in Aberdeen is interesting because they are going to have a hell of a challenge in establishing the grass and countering the ongoing sand encroachment.

Its a problem that a lot of links courses have had down the ages and some have solved it by rerouting part of the course or by planting to stabilise the grass. Troon did a lot of it. Looking at that great photo of the bunker that David posted, that bunker is now all gorse.

Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

I think the bottom line answer is yes they did.

I’ve started threads like this before and the conclusion is often that there is a fascination with large dunes in the modern era that there perhaps wasn’t right back at the beginning, even though there were many shots over dunes (as alluded to by that Darwin quote) at the time.

Aside from the usual earthmoving problems etc.. etc…, many of the “old” courses we now associate with dunes were actually routed over flatter ground in the beginning. Tom MacWood mentions Lahinch but aside from Dell (and a little later Klondyke), most of the land it played over was the current second course. Gibson (1907) and MacKenzie (1927) took it into the bigger stuff but Gibson was forced to by outside circumstances. Ballybunion also bought flat ground in 1926 for an extra nine before being persuaded to use the dunes that are now so dramatic.

Incidentally, 50 feet is very high. Even Klondyke must be only about 30 feet and that gets called an anachronism because you have to hit over it.

[Kris Shreiner]

A hole late in the Jubilee course at St. Andrews has a large ridge that you play the tee shot over. Are they dunes or is that just fill that was piled up? That is over thirty feet I'd imagine, at least. I know that when I've played that hole in high winds, even well struck balls with quality shaping,  flighted barely over the crest,  those shots are hard often to find as the shot is blind.

That is why in my experience, most links or coastal courses don't have an abundance of highly elevated tee areas, or ask the player to hit high shots over obstacles, unless it is part of the natural elevation change of the ground the hole is routed over. Certainly, there are exceptions, but while you want to challenge the player, asking them to hit numerous moon shots, or ones from high, exposed tee boxes where wind or a gale will wreck havoc... doesn't seem very practical or fun, especiallly for the less skilled duffers who make up the majority of play.

[Tom_Doak]

Kris:

We had a bit of that argument going on when we built Pacific Dunes.  I made the arguments you just made above, but Mr. Keiser kept reminding us that "golfers like elevated tees".  And, by and large, he is right about that.  Pacific Dunes has elevated tees at the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 8th, 10th, 14th, 17th, and 18th holes, and I have yet to hear anyone complain directly about that feature, although I'm sure it's one of the reasons some people have a hard time enjoying the course when it's windy.

[NOTE that when I say "elevated tees" I mean a tee well above the landing area and exposed to the wind.  Hardly any of the tees listed above are actually built from fill material.  For that matter, we very seldom cut off the top of a dune to build a tee; most of those listed are just a matter of playing from the brink of a higher area down to a lower one in an abrupt transition instead of a more gradual one.]

[Bill_McBride]

   I don't have an objective gauge of "dramatic" but 50 feet still seems less than dramatic to me.

Mike, look for a five story building and think about hitting a tee shot over it from down the street a few hundred feet.   That's fifty feet.

[Rory Connaughton]

There are definitely some dunes at Enniscrone that exceed 50 feet but in all but one case that I can think of, that elevation is not on the side of the dune facing the fairway (perhaps with the exception of 14 or 12 if you are way down in the trough short of the hole).
A shot pull hooked long and  left of three green drops a good 40 feet into a chasm

[Melvyn Morrow]

NO

Melvyn