Riviera vs Sand Hills. What courses are next?

[Jim Nugent]

John, I'd also like to see Pine Valley vs CPC.  The two courses that seem to top all the U.S. (and often world) lists.

Others:

Shinnie vs NGLA
Ballyneal vs Sand Hills
Royal County Down vs TOC
Seminole vs Pinehurst
Plus all sorts of other lineups. 

IMO the matches needn't be match play.  We could come up with a medal play format, that might give better results. 

[RJ_Daley]

We used to play this match game quite a bit back about 8-10 years ago here on GCA.com.  Which poster was the lead promoter of such.  Wasn't it Noel Freeman?  Maybe even Geoff Shack...Or, is it a poster NLE?  I forget.  

The combinations are endless, of course.  I enjoyed the Riv vs SHGC as an interesting contrast of situational aspects from era to style to legend and lore, not to mention actual merits of GCA.  But, I also think if you reprise the golf course match play, you ought to make a formula to match par 3 to 3s, 4s to 4s, 5s to 5s.  One could start the match by making a list of them as they appear in sequence.  On the mismatched course par comparisons, begin the match with them, so that the disparity doesn't weigh so heavy as the match tightens at the end.  Or, that the rules are slightly modified so that the closing holes, no matter the par are matched, but all others are matched as close as possible with like pars in order of sequence.

Otherwise, while novel and interesting like Riv and SH may have been, it gets really too disparate to make any sense.  I even thought that the Riv SH should have atleast been par matched at the last 3 holes.

Jim, you have really narrowed down your universe as to who can credibly comment... 

[John Kavanaugh]

The key, and what was different this time, is doing one hole per day.  I would like to see medal play where the holes are scored similar to a boxing match.  Sand Hills would have won 8 by a score of 3 to 6.  Doing one hole per day forces the OP to really think about each hole.  Be careful because it can be exhaustive.  I even learned to respect salaried golf writers after this experience.  Writing under obligation is like making a deposit at a sperm bank.

[JMEvensky]

  Writing under obligation is like making a deposit at a sperm bank.

 You do each right handed?

[John Kavanaugh]

  Writing under obligation is like making a deposit at a sperm bank.

 You do each right handed?

No, it's not something you look forward to doing and usually ends in embarrassment.  I can't tell you how much I hate running into someone I know who has been watching.

[Matt MacIver]

John - thanks for this thread, it was the most readable in a long time.  Having played neither I had always assumed that SH was the superior course; having read some of your past posts and the fact that you even started this thread, I knew where this was going.  But you made (more than) compelling points and Riviera more than held its own.  Congrats on seeing and playing two great courses, and moreso, for breaking them down for the masses. 

[Buck Wolter]

I think the JK v JK was especially compelling -- almost as much of a contrast as Riv v SH.  What other courses do you two have in common?

Ballyneal & Victoria National? Home v Home

[George Pazin]

bumping because of tournament this weekend, thought others might find it interesting.

[JC Jones]

I quite enjoy these types of threads.  I tried one once with Seminole and Crystal Downs but was told it wasn't worth it because of the few people who have played both.  I've not played Riviera nor Sand Hills but apparently they are one step from being CCFADs....either that or my access whoring powers haven't spread past the Mississippi.

[Mac Plumart]

How about Kingsley vs. Crystal Downs?

Or Kingsley vs. Bandon Dunes?

I've heard how great Kingsley is from many people and I'd love to get a sense of just how great it is.

[Tim Bert]

I've heard how great Kingsley is from many people and I'd love to get a sense of just how great it is.

You can't handle the truth.

[Jim Jackson]

How about branching out to:

Camargo vs. Crooked Stick
Crooked Stick vs. The Golf Club
Chambers Bay vs. Straits

I like JK's idea of Ballyneal vs. NGLA best of all

[Richard Choi]

No, it should be Old Macdonald vs NGLA, especially if you compare the shared template holes. That would be pretty fascinating...

[Mac Plumart]

Richard...nice idea!

We need Jim Colton to step in here.

It is closing in on March.  We need a 64 (or is it now 68) team/course bracket to run it all down, hole by hole, to come up with champion course.

Why not?  Could discussion and analysis should ensue.  We could even have a committee decide on what teams/courses get in the tourney.

[Bill_McBride]

Whoever does this, please start a new thread.

And a suggested ground rule:  instead of #1 vs #1, how about the first par 4 vs first par 4, first par 5 vs first par 5, etc?

Otherwise there's a lot of apples vs oranges discussion.

[JC Jones]

I've heard how great Kingsley is from many people and I'd love to get a sense of just how great it is.

You can't handle the truth.

I've still not heard a better statement than yours:  if the age of the golf courses were reversed, so would be the perceptions.

[Richard Choi]

Richard...nice idea!

We need Jim Colton to step in here.

I don't think Colton has played Old Mac. We need Mayhugh!!!

[Richard Choi]

What about the idea of championing the best template hole? I know we have done a lot of hole by hole comparison, but have we done competitive analysis between many variations of the same template?

Who has the best example of biarritz? The best alps? Bottle?

That would be pretty cool...

[Peter Pallotta]

What a fascinating phenomenon - a new and wholly artificial ranking system that adds insult to that injury by a) stripping both competing courses of half their charm and essence/quality by focusing on individual holes and thus ignoring the routings and the flow/cadence from one hole to the next, and b) further eviscerating the value/validity of the rankings by focusing on a pair of golf courses that have been played by only the smallest percentage of participants from an already small/elitist pool of potential candidates. JK's thread worked -- if it did indeed work, beyond the entertainment value -- because of the charming and interesting choice of comparing Riviera to Sand Hills; I don't think the feat can be repeated.

Peter
  

[John Kirk]

I've only played NGLA once.  I've played Old Mac about seven times (already!  how about that!) and Ballyneal about 50 times.  At one play, I'm not qualified to compare NGLA with anything, because it will lose, since I've only played it once.  I will say this: my favorite stretch at NGLA was the long holes in the middle, six beauties back-to-back.  I think I even remember the names:  Road, Bottle, Long, Shinnecock, Double Plateau, Sebonack...I may have that last one wrong.  Boy those are good holes, and it's always the shorties at the beginning and end of the round that get the love.

Another stray thought.  Among the courses I've played, I believe Pacific Dunes would win a hole-by-hole comparison with any course.

Remember that thread a year or so ago where Ari T. was talking about the courses he had played.  "Well I've played Sand Hills about a million times and Ballyneal about half a million and Pac Dunes about 500 and Old Mac about a thousand."  That was a great one.  That fella gets around.

[Keith OHalloran]

How about Pacific Dunes v Sebonack (if it has not been done already)