Riviera vs Sand Hills. What courses are next?

[Scott Warren]

John Kirk,

Re: your question,

I was told by a reliable source that the green-facing side of the mound on 5 at Riv did used to be closely mown to allow a ball to be kicked off it towards the putting surface, back when even the best players often had a wood for their second.

[Bill_McBride]

John,

Life has once again gotten in the way of my postings but I will quickly note that the large man made mound at Riviera has been documented to also protect the green in flood events.  With the sixth hole coming up I am afraid this match is getting lop sided. Funny though how I feel Sand Hills will make a run just before the half. Isn't that always the way of great matches.

Are you saying Sand Hills needs a run of birdies?  To hole a few putts?

[John Kirk]

John,

Life has once again gotten in the way of my postings but I will quickly note that the large man made mound at Riviera has been documented to also protect the green in flood events.  With the sixth hole coming up I am afraid this match is getting lop sided. Funny though how I feel Sand Hills will make a run just before the half. Isn't that always the way of great matches.

Happily/patiently waiting to share parallel thoughts.  I've run the match through in my head, and the final result will be close.  Sand Hills has an exceptional finish.

Thanks JK and SW for verifying the man-made nature of the ridge on #5.

[Adam Clayman]

Dick, I'm sure Tom can give much more detail, but, I do know Dan built the alternate 10th green for Forse. Also, C&C built the alternate greens on 6 and 16. They aren't exactly built as they are just laying there. Which, in the few talks I've had with Mr. Crenshaw, is Thomas' influence in all their designs. Nothing built up against the natural flow of the terrain.

[Scott Szabo]

John,

How far back is that mound (as well as the bunker) from the green?  In the picture, it sure looks like the mound may be quite a distance away from the green.

There is mention of in the past being able to use the back side of the mound to propel shots toward the green.  Is that still a viable option?

JK mentions that the hole requires a drive of "unusual accuracy".  Does that make it a better hole than #5 at SH where you have the option of challenging the bunker at the inside corner or playing away from it, then being faced with a shot over the mound to the left of the green with the bunker on the right now coming into play? 

For me, the 5th at Sand Hills would have to get the nod from my plays there...   

[John Kavanaugh]

Scott,

The mound, which is actually more of a ridge built in resemblance to a retention basin, appears to be approximately 30 yds from the green.  I am sure the mound was shaved before the Fazio renovations as I would think Mr. Huntley could verify.  I do not recall how it was when I played.  Please remember that longer grasses do slow down the flow of water so given the modern game perhaps some clever engineer felt flood prevention took precedence over obsolete architecture.  The mound does still play an important visual role in the play of the hole for every skill level.

As far as the difficulty of the drive goes I personally have trouble with ob right.  Maybe that is why Riviera kills me, the course is routed bass ackwards with ob right all the way around.  I grew up on a Bendelow course which is always the exact opposite.

Sure there are bunkers right on the fifth at Sand Hills but they are quite simple with a short iron to extricate oneself.

[Scott Szabo]

Jk,

Thanks for clarifying.  In the picture it looked to me like the mound and bunker may be in play off the tee rather than up by the green.  As for the mound itself, would it serve more of a purpose of making the second shot more blind in nature if one is playing in from the right side of the fairway rather than actually coming into play?  With the kikuyu grass in play am I correct to assume that a run up shot isn't much of an option?  Haven't played on the stuff, but have heard from many that have that the ball simply sticks, rather than running out.  Therefore the mound may have been more of an architectural feature in the past but not so much with today's aerial game?  Just a thought...

As for getting out of the bunker on the right at SH, I have seen many balls up against the face with no shot but sideways or backwards.  Your bunker play must be superb if you have come to the conclusion that it's a simple shot to the green from there (or haven't had the pleasure of a ball to the front portion of the bunker).

Thanks for the tour - it's fun to learn a bit more about these two courses.

[John Kavanaugh]

Scott,

Once past the mound there continues to be a kick plate that will move your ball onto the green which in itself slopes from right to left.  Like I have said many times before I find the kikuyu to be a fine playing surface that is no more sticky than zoysia.  Before I had played perfectly maintained fescue, like at Sand Hills, I thought the kikuyu at Riviera was the finest playing surface I had ever seen.  But then again, perfect playing conditions is my middle name.

[John Kirk]

I am driving all day today, so I'll compare the 6th holes tonight.  Thanks.

[John Kavanaugh]

I decided to write the opening paragraph to this match before I did any research.  When first considering this project it first occurred to me that the Riviera would win this hole with little consideration.  One of the great things about doing a hole a day is that it gives me time to think about each match for an unreasonable amount of time the day before.  So, why even bother?  Am I wrong, or did I once read this is Gene's favorite par 3 at Sand Hills?  I'm not going to all George on you guys but this morning I was going over the seven wonders in the world that I have personally witnessed and in that group was the sixth green at Riviera and the Sand Hills region.  So with an open mind and a legitimate concern that having Riviera 3 up after 6 hole could hurt the credibility of this thread, I trudge on with a researched opinion to follow:

I had a great time playing the sixth at Sand Hills since it allows for a punch driver using the contours of both the land and green.  I'm bored with my own attempts to quantify so stealing from Ran; and because I love his new word Crenshawstruck which describes most of our time at Sand Hills.

"Sixth hole, 200 yards; On a property with pronounced land forms, blind shots add to the enjoymentand variety of the challenge. However, too many blind shots and a course may ultimately lose some of its appeal. Conversely, too few blind shots andthe opportunity for the architect to create some uncertainty and mystery has been lost.Coore & Crenshawstruck the perfect balance at Sand Hills, with one example being their use of a ridge sixty yardsshy ofthe 6th green that obscures the left front half of the green."

The first time I played the sixth at Riviera I was brought back to a simpler time when reading Tommy trying and successfully hitting his tee shot at Pine Valley in the D.A. was entertaining.  So what else can I do but try to replicate his feat by hitting the bunker in the middle of the sixth.  I missed of course.  Oh well, at least the guy I played with that day is on this site keeping me honest.  Hell, I don't even remember where I hit that shot or if I ever pared the hole off my original tee shot.  What difference does it make when a hole is so great you try to hit a bad shot and fail.

All I can say is that the green is a miracle, not a man made miracle either or it would have been successfully copied.  I can not describe the hole any further without using the full two pages Geoff dedicated in his book.  It is simply the finest hole ever built in the history of the game, bar none.

Match play

Riviera !∞?

Sand Hills !?!

Riviera goes 3 up but I feel the momentum changing.

[Bill_McBride]

As far as the difficulty of the drive goes I personally have trouble with ob right.  Maybe that is why Riviera kills me, the course is routed bass ackwards with ob right all the way around.  I grew up on a Bendelow course which is always the exact opposite.

John, you prefer the "Muirfield routing."    Front nine clockwise around the perimeter, back nine inside, all the OB is left.  Chicago Golf Club and the little known but wonderful Sonoma Golf Club are two American examples.

Riviera is the anti-Muirfield routing.  Maybe Thomas fought a hook!

[Pete Lavallee]

I hate to rain on John's parade, but you can pump one OB at the Riv on 1, 12, 13 and 18. There is OB right on 5, 7 and 8; not sure how the driving range affects this ratio?

[RJ_Daley]

As I've said, I never actually played Riv, but it just seems to me that any forgone conclusion that the 6th at Riv is unquestionably a finer hole is a little premature.  Sure, there is that whole uniqueness thing with the bunker in the middle of green and the other foreground artistic bunker and more nondescript left and rear Bs.  But, the notion of the variety of pin placements at Riv with "quadrants" around the bunker is I think matched by the enormous green at SH and its poofing and rolling Maxwell-like contours that effectively make cross country putting a mystery and no sure two putt.  It seems to me that the quadrants around the bunker and the foreground bunker at Riv force a target aerial game, whereas SH is more diverse in how to approach with more bound in ground running possibilities.  The snarly bunker at SH 6 is formidable if you get in it.   The Riv handicapp at 6th is 15 and plays up 160ish to 199.  SH can play longer, but of course isn't handicapped.  I think the prevailing wind at SH is mostly quartering left to right, making the large forground bunkerpartially obscuring the green a mental thing that you have to take on to either ride the wind or fight it with a draw, and so the tee shot is just more puzzling and thoughtful in a sense than Riv.  Not to detract at all from the consternation of dealing with the quadrants and mental gymnastics that the center bunker plays.  I just don't think thee is any hands down winner between the two, but only on impression, not play at Riv.  Not that I personally can hit the shot needed at either more than 1 out of several anyway... 

[John Kavanaugh]

RJ,

I thought I gave the sixth at Sand Hills a fair shot.  When I came to the conclusion that the the sixth at Riviera is the finest par three ever built anywhere in the history of golf it was game over.  This in no way was meant to reflect poorly on the worthy opponent.

[Bill_McBride]

RJ,

I thought I gave the sixth at Sand Hills a fair shot.  When I came to the conclusion that the the sixth at Riviera is the finest par three ever built anywhere in the history of golf it was game over.  This in no way was meant to reflect poorly on the worthy opponent.

John, is that because you can putt around the bunker using the slopes?

Otherwise not sure how it could be compared to the original Eden, for example.

Enjoying the match. Has Sand Hills pressed yet?

[John Kavanaugh]

Mainly because the hole sits on an ordinary plot of ground and has not been able to be duplicated.  Yes you can putt around the bunker.

Sand Hills does not need to press with 7 and 8 on the bench.

[John Kirk]

I don't have much energy tonight, and I need to hit the sack.

My primary objection to the 6th hole at Riviera is the inability to hit a high draw from the back tee.  The tree line is very tight on the right side from the back, and I imagine there are quite a few pros who feel they have to manipulate their tee shots.

Correct me if I'm wrong, please.

My primary objection with the 6th hole at Sand Hills is the severity of the green.  It is one of the three most severely contoured greens on the course (2, 3 and 6), and hitting to the wrong portion of the green makes it almost impossible to make a par.  At 200 yards, hitting to the high portions of the green (back left or right half) is very difficult.  You must be short of the front left pin or you are dead.  Maybe I should try the bunny driver like JK.

When the greens are super fast, rolling at 12 or higher on the Stimpmeter, I think #6 at Sand Hills is simply too severe.  In fact, I say the par 3 holes at Sand Hills are less compelling than the great 4s and 5s.

#6 at Riviera ranks very high on the cool scale.  I haven't been able to hang out long enough at the 6th green to know how well you can get from one portion to the next.

Neither is one of my favorites on these courses, though #6 at Riviera has great notoriety.

Riviera wins and goes 2 up.

[Michael Robin]

How can Kavanaugh forget!!!

Pin is front left, the toughest pin on the course I think. Huge back to front slope(think Eden). John does aim for the bunker hoping for a draw with a 6 iron and dead blocks it right of the green about 2/3 of the way thru it's depth. Alex, his caddie says he can try a huge flop shot that needs to land just over the bunker in the center of the green, which is between him and the hole, and let the ball just trickle down the big slope 20 ft to the hole or just play to the fringe short of the green and try to make a 20 ft uphill putt. Alex recommends the safe route to avoid making double if he doesn't pull off the flopasaurus. John looks at me with mischief in his eye and says "Well, I've gotta try the shot over the bunker. When else I'm I going to be able to play this shot." He nips it just right with a big swing, lands it in the collar just over the bunker with spin, ball takes one bounce forward and then almost stops, it then starts to barely roll down the hill, picks up speed a little until it runs out of gumption and ends up a foot from the cup.

I look forward to describing again the first time he played 10.

Enjoying this John.

One note re 5 - The backside of the little Manmade Alps right of the green was always cut as fairway once you cleared the horseshoe at the top of the hill, enabling the ball to bound onto the green with a fairway wood or long iron. It actually provided for a 2 club shorter route if you challenged the hill successfully. Another of the many cool alternate route ideas that Thomas put all over Riviera.

This hole lies dormant with the tees 30yards forward from their original placement, and the equipment of today. The tee complex got changed in the early 80s to soften the descent from the 4th green to the back 5th tee as there was a fear of litigation if someone fell down the very steep hill, which happened on #1 a year earlier. LAAC  made the decision to eliminate their exposure to those kinds of lawsuits by "fixing" the problem and just moving up the tees and creating these huge Ted Robinson designed freeway tees with almost no descent from the 4th green. The original back tee was about 10 yards behind and below the very pushed up green. Kind of benched into it. The tee shot on 5 would fly into the Manmade hill in the fairway that acted as a governor for distance leaving you a 215 yard second shot. If you stand on the top of that hill you will see that these details still exist today, but given the 3rd generation of tees(the Robinson tees were replaced and an attempt to find the old tee missed it's mark), equipment, and the long grass on the back side of the greenside hill, this wonderful hole does not play as intended. It's quite a tribute to Thomas and Bell that still, it's a cool hole.

[Michael Robin]

John Kirk -

Isn't it an another tip of the hat to Riviera that the right side of the green wants a fade and the left side wants a draw? Another example of Thomas examining your skills in different ways round after round.

[Scott Warren]

Michael R,

Since my visit I have seen two or three other guys' photos of their day there and in all of them, there is Alex! I can understand why - he was awesome.

Great memories that I think of every day! On course and off.

[John Kavanaugh]

Michael,

It's 3am and this old man is up as old men tend to be.  Reading your post reminds me of that shot, thank you as now I can go back to sleep with pleasant memories.  I knew something memorable happened, I just couldn't remember what it was.

John,

From the very back tee to the right pin the hole can play as a dog leg.  As long as it plays left to right it is something I can enjoy during match play from a pro set of tees.

[Michael Robin]

John - It was one of 3 memorable shots that day. The 3rd being the four footer I gave you for par on 10.   

Scott - Alex is indeed the best out there, by a bunch. Ask Kevin Na, whom he has helped a few Nissan's.

[Scott Szabo]

My primary objection with the 6th hole at Sand Hills is the severity of the green.  It is one of the three most severely contoured greens on the course (2, 3 and 6), and hitting to the wrong portion of the green makes it almost impossible to make a par.  At 200 yards, hitting to the high portions of the green (back left or right half) is very difficult.  You must be short of the front left pin or you are dead.  Maybe I should try the bunny driver like JK.
 

The green is too severe?  John, you are a member at Ballyneal, which has the most severe greens I've ever seen. How many shots there are you asked to play into greens where hitting it to the wrong portion of the green makes it almost impossible to make a par?  And quite a few of them, if played from the tips, will be around 200 yards or more. 

Sure, hitting to the high portions of the green at #6 at Sand Hills is a tough call.  But can't the same be said for #15 at Ballyneal, for example?  Put the pin front right, just over the knob, and it's just as tough a shot (unless your name's Glossy!).  I don't want to pull us off track with the Ballyneal comparison, but had to call you on that. 

[Adam Clayman]

Scott, The greens speeds day in day out are no where near the same. Plus, the bowled nature of 15 makes for some opportunities to air break.

Now, we can talk about being out of position, on any green, and how that affects a persons perception of what's fair.

[Chip Gaskins]

John Kavanaugh

I totally agree with you.  I like Riviera better than Sand Hills and think the green complexes at Riviera are amazing and some of the best in golf, especially the par 3s.  I am late to the thread but joined just in time for one of my favorite holes on the course, #6.  Some on here say it is contrived.  If it is, so be it, I think it a wonderful golf hole with many options.  Even if the trees encroach a little on the right, just play a different shot!