Riviera vs Sand Hills. What courses are next?

[Terry Lavin]

Does anybody think Riviera can win this match, even being one-up after 10?

[Tim Bert]

Does anybody think Riviera can win this match, even being one-up after 10?

Given that this whole 18 hole match play thread, if I'm understanding correctly, is merely support to only items #2 and #3 of John's original thread entitled something like 18 reasons Riviera is better than Sand Hills and there are indeed 15 more reasons above and beyond the match play... I must think that Mr. Kavanaugh believes, at least on a subconscious level, that Riviera will pull it out. 

I just wonder if Jonh's still going to bother to create the other 15 reasons the course is superior if Riviera does somehow happen to lose the match play, which I think is unlikely. 

[Adam Clayman]

John, They have added several back tees to WH over the years. The next time I talk to Dan or Dave or Josh, I'll ask about the 15th.

As Dick points out, 342 is not that long considering elevation and wind. If I'm not mistaken, on my first visit there, our own Brad Swanson almost drove the green from that tee.

[Scott Szabo]

Looking forward to what you have to say the rest of the way, especially to your thoughts on #12. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Does anybody think Riviera can win this match, even being one-up after 10?

Given that this whole 18 hole match play thread, if I'm understanding correctly, is merely support to only items #2 and #3 of John's original thread entitled something like 18 reasons Riviera is better than Sand Hills and there are indeed 15 more reasons above and beyond the match play... I must think that Mr. Kavanaugh believes, at least on a subconscious level, that Riviera will pull it out. 

I just wonder if Jonh's still going to bother to create the other 15 reasons the course is superior if Riviera does somehow happen to lose the match play, which I think is unlikely. 

Tim,

The fourth reason is because I think Riviera smells better than Sand Hills.  Riviera after a rain is the finest smelling living thing I have ever wafted.   It may take me a year to get through all 18 reasons, so there is a taste of things to come.

[Tim Bert]

Does anybody think Riviera can win this match, even being one-up after 10?

Given that this whole 18 hole match play thread, if I'm understanding correctly, is merely support to only items #2 and #3 of John's original thread entitled something like 18 reasons Riviera is better than Sand Hills and there are indeed 15 more reasons above and beyond the match play... I must think that Mr. Kavanaugh believes, at least on a subconscious level, that Riviera will pull it out. 

I just wonder if Jonh's still going to bother to create the other 15 reasons the course is superior if Riviera does somehow happen to lose the match play, which I think is unlikely. 

Tim,

The fourth reason is because I think Riviera smells better than Sand Hills.  Riviera after a rain is the finest smelling living thing I have ever wafted.   It may take me a year to get through all 18 reasons, so there is a taste of things to come.

Hey I am just glad to know I was keeping up correctly and that this entire thread combined is only getting at supporting material for reasons #2 and #3. I think some people had lost sight of the fact that this was actually a dream within a dream.

[Bill_McBride]

Does anybody think Riviera can win this match, even being one-up after 10?

Given that this whole 18 hole match play thread, if I'm understanding correctly, is merely support to only items #2 and #3 of John's original thread entitled something like 18 reasons Riviera is better than Sand Hills and there are indeed 15 more reasons above and beyond the match play... I must think that Mr. Kavanaugh believes, at least on a subconscious level, that Riviera will pull it out. 

I just wonder if Jonh's still going to bother to create the other 15 reasons the course is superior if Riviera does somehow happen to lose the match play, which I think is unlikely. 

Tim,

The fourth reason is because I think Riviera smells better than Sand Hills.  Riviera after a rain is the finest smelling living thing I have ever wafted.   It may take me a year to get through all 18 reasons, so there is a taste of things to come.

That's probably the eucalyptus, a great smell for which Californians are indebted to their Australian cousins.

[John Kirk]

That's probably the eucalyptus, a great smell for which Californians are indebted to their Australian cousins.

Yeah, indebted.  They were brought to California as a timber tree.  Instead, they are the messiest weed in the state.

They smell good, though.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

That's probably the eucalyptus, a great smell for which Californians are indebted to their Australian cousins.

Yeah, indebted.  They were brought to California as a timber tree.  Instead, they are the messiest weed in the state.

They smell good, though.

You are correct about the "eucs."  We have the railroads to thank.

[John Kavanaugh]

I had no idea the 12th at Riviera had gone through so many changes in length over its history.  Lengthened to 440 yds for the 29 L.A. Open and then back down to 410 yds at the publishing of Geoff's book.  I could have sworn my host pointed to a 480 yd tee that I do not believe is used for the current tour stop.  Even at that the day I played the course from the tips the hole is a par 4 that can not be reached under any circumstance in two by me.  Now the day I played from the member tees it was a delight with an 8 iron approach.  The beauty of the hole lies at the green with a historical and strategic tree, a deep and strategic bunker, a strategic barranca and a devilish deceptive green.  Each of the above make the hole a perfect test of driving ability given the organizer of your round can choose a distance best set to test the skills of the day.

You gotta also love a tree in play that is fortunate enough to have a great name.  This is the Bogey tree, perhaps on some day when we are not starting threads about farts on backswings and what cars we drive a thread about great named trees will appear.  The Bogey tree is at the top of the list.  See this is my problem, last week I hate the list threads and then here you go.

It was not my intention when I started this thread to give the haters ammunition supporting my stupidity.  I look at the 12th at Sand Hills and see a great piece of land for golf connecting two other fine holes.  The genius of this hole may lay at the hands of the architect but perhaps only because of what they didn't do.  Sure I enjoy a blind shot where you can throw the ball up high left with a fade and let the ball trickle down the the hole, who doesn't.   ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.  Sorry dozed off there for a minute.  Yea, the land is great but I knew that 4 miles north of North Platte.

Match Play at the 12elves.

Riviera !!!

Sand Hills !

Riviera wins the 12th to go 3 up with 6 to play.

note:  If I could start over I would fudge this to only 2 up so I didn't lay awake at night wondering how to keep this interesting.

[Bill_McBride]

That's probably the eucalyptus, a great smell for which Californians are indebted to their Australian cousins.

Yeah, indebted.  They were brought to California as a timber tree.  Instead, they are the messiest weed in the state.

They smell good, though.

You are correct about the "eucs."  We have the railroads to thank.

In Northern California they seem to have all been planted as windbreaks.

[Adam Clayman]

I diverge from JK's (Barney)assessment. The 12th at SH is the Bottle hole, isn't it? If it is the one i'm thinking of, it has great fairway undulations.Making it the one hole in Mullen that closely resembles anything in Holyoke. The green site at SH is top notch with the front right bunker cutting into the front of the green. Bailing left is no cake walk. Now,if this hole I'm recalling is not the 12th at SH, I say the match is a tie, because in all truthfulness, I don't recall the 12th at The Riv. I'm thinking it's the one along side the west end of the property. Mounds on the right with a green that slopes to the left. Is it? How about a Pic?

[John Kirk]

I find myself influenced by the JK's assessment of the 12th holes.  I was going to award this to Sand Hills, but am now recosnidering.

1.  The 12th hole at Riviera does have a fine greensite, plus a beautifully situated sycamore tree, perfect for the uber cool mega-star who sihes to to hang out and sip whiskey from his favorite flask.

2.  Both 12th holes feature a swale short of the green.  Riviera's swale requires a greater carry distance to reach the green, which is very steeply sloped from back right to short right.

3.  The driving requirements are interesting here.  The 12th hole at Riviera is a dogleg right with ground that slopes left, which strongly encourages a fade.  The 12th fairway at Sand Hills is wide and complex, with a large swale about 60-120 yards short of the center of the green.  At Sand Hills, the percentage play is to lay up short of the swale to avoid uphill or downhill lies on the second shot.

4.  The 12th green at Sand Hills is very gentle.  The right greenside bunker is enormous, and a thing of great beauty.  Gene Greco once mentioned that he and Neil Regan spent a little time around the green, and decided that some putts were unreadable, the breaks being so subtle and nuanced.  Is that a good thing?

5.  The 12th hole at Riviera is quite tough, while the 12th at Sand Hills is perhaps the easiest hole on the back nine.

6.  Neither 12th hole was among the memorable holes on the course, so I looked at some pictures of each to familiarize myself with the subjects.


The uphill approach at Sand Hills #11:



Just one of eighteen beautiful holes, the subtle 12th green and surrounds at Sand Hills:




I would have posted a hole layout of Riviera #12 from the website, but can't remember my photobucket password.

Gee, tough call.  What's more important?  Two tough shots, faded tee shot demanded, to a tough little green, or wide, with lots of options off the tee, to a very flat greensite with miniscule breaks?

I changed my mind.  Sand Hills #12 is better.

All square.

[John Kirk]

I'll try to fix the sizing issue with the Sand Hills pictures.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Thanks for the pic of the 12th green at Sand Hills, I am now reminded of the clever front bunker, my ZZZZZZZZZZ's were unwarranted.  I don't know why but your pic seems to remind me of an awkward point in the routing.  Is there a slight back track to get to 13?

[John Kirk]

You walk right off the green, and the primary 13th tee is close by, maybe a 185 yard tee.  The back tee is more like 220, but requires a little walk up the hill.  I think there's a bathroom out there.  I wuld not characterize the walk as awkward.

I think this is the area of the course where Bill and Ben asked Mr. Youngscap if he could buy another small parcel to finish off the course properly.  Maybe that's the 14th green.

[Matt Bosela]

Here are a couple of pictures of the 12th green at Riviera:

[John Kavanaugh]

Reason # 5 is that Riviera is an easier walk than Sand Hills.  I would even hazard a guess that a larger percentage of golfers walk at Riviera.

[John Kavanaugh]

Reason #6.  Riviera has a members only parking lot.

[John Kirk]

By the way, I changed my mind.  Sand Hills wins #12 and the match is all square.  For me, that is.

[John Kavanaugh]

By the way, I changed my mind.  Sand Hills wins #12 and the match is all square.  For me, that is.

Well, well, well, I thought we all learned along time ago to go with our first instinct.  There is not a hole played so far that I couldn't change my mind on given the right mood.  Do you have a copy of Geoff's book?  If not I would highly recommend it as I have refrained from copying many of his thoughts verbatim so as not to distimulate sales.

[John Kirk]

Congratulations for being the first person to ever use the word "disstimulate" in a sentence.  Not even the Urban Dictionary could use it:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=disstimulate

[John Kavanaugh]

Geoff's book can be purchased though his site as found on this link: http://www.geoffshackelford.com/books/ I collect golf histories and this is the finest I have ever read.  If anyone thinks the book is too expensive just send me a copy of your receipt and I will mail you a crisp twenty dollar bill to offset the expense.  It is the least I can do considering my copy was a gift.

[RJ_Daley]

I wonder if a certain cachet or celebrity hollywood image lends some weight in evaluation of these holes, and sense of place in general.  The old hollywood nature and history of the Riv is unmistakable when one is on the property.  It ooozes of all that is iconic in our imaginations as a place of glamour and a golden era.  It is surrounded on high by that image we all conjure up of what Hollywood must have been like, when the most popular stars of both film and entertainment are out to play, then and now.  Not to mention the tournament history.  So, when we talk about a Bogart tree, it adds to the image.  How could it not.  And, going back to the tee view on 9, that is truly an iconic image of the California Spanish influenced, all Hollywood style club house. 

Does any of that play into one's evaluation of a hole in particular, or add to its total status as a golf course in a very special place with a very special style? 

Sand Hills evokes a certain emotion as well.  To me it evokes the allure of leaving it all behind.  It is the journey into the frontier and back to a vast natural environment that we just don't see in our daily lives, unless you ARE a Sand Hills resident, and possibly a rancher. Even the clubhouse, while very comfortable along with the cabins, is completely understated and quietly classy.  It is like your own entry into the film, City Slickers, if you are from the cities, where you can go to recreate in seclusion with just your golf buddies while enjoying quality f&b and sleep well.  While you might bump into a well known person at SH, it isn't so likely, nor notable.

Riviera is the opposite.  When you come onto that property it isn't like Sand Hills where you left it all behind, it is the feeling that YOU HAVE ARRIVED!  You are not only in one film about getting away from it all, you are in a place where (figuratively) EVERY FILM is made,  where your movie star and celebrity personalities go to recreate, and have been doing so from its begining.  You are completely aware of it as a visitor, and I'm guessing even members might be somewhat star struck by their fellow members in a certain way.

SH has Ben's Porch and 'Old Tom's' burgers (rip).  Well, that is all well and good for we who revere what Ben means to the game, and Tom's connection with you and what was somehow his representation to what was in the old cowboy rancher days.  But com'mon man... SH has nothing comparable to the legend and lore of a Bogart's tree. 

[Bill_McBride]

Congratulations for being the first person to ever use the word "disstimulate" in a sentence.  Not even the Urban Dictionary could use it:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=disstimulate

For the record, John used the word "distimulate."

Not that that makes a difference!

Here's what synonym.com says:

"Antonym of stimulate

Antonyms of verb stimulate

2 of 7 senses of stimulate

Sense 1:
stimulate, excite
Antonym of stifle (Sense 2)
=>stifle, dampen

Sense 4:
stimulate, arouse, brace, energize, energize, perk up
Antonym of sedate (Sense 1)
=>sedate, calm, tranquilize, tranquillize, tranquillize"

I'm going for "stifle."