Redans, has modern technology and distance improved the

[Patrick_Mucci]

options of play.

I would imagine that Redans in the 190 yard range were more one dimensional in terms of tactics and play many years ago.

The advent of sprinkler systems probably had some influence, but, modern tech has surely altered play by some golfers.

For decades I watched good golfers play the 4th at NGLA with a draw into the area fronting the green or into the shoulder fronting the green and even into the green, depending on hole location.

Then I saw a very good player hit a high cut 5-iron to the back left hole location.

A shot that would almost never have been considered many years ago.

So, for all the negatives, has increased distance and higher trajectory flight increased the playing options for redans ?

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick,

Has it increased the options, or just given the stronger player a different (and easier) option?

Do you think Jack Nicklaus would ever opt for the running draw?

[Jaeger Kovich]

Tom - Maybe thats why Jack isn't the best ever after all... How 'bout a baseball analogy.. Don't you have to be able to hit it to all corners of the park to be considered the best hitter ever? Or are the guys who can only pull it down the line the best?

All I'm saying is, I'm pretty sure Tiger would have moved it both ways with hickory!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Are you stating that all architecture should be viewed solely from the perspective of the world's greatest golfer/s, ignoring all other, lesser golfers ?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat, maybe but I doubt it. I think a well designed Redan or reverse redan is one if not the most fun par 3 around. The fact many are hitting shorter clubs does not change the options that much.

[David Whitmer]

Patrick,

Has it increased the options, or just given the stronger player a different (and easier) option?

Do you think Jack Nicklaus would ever opt for the running draw?

I agree with Tom. Let me preface the following by saying I hit the ball a pretty long way, and hit my irons very high. I have played Camargo about 50 times, and not once have I ever decided on the 15th tee (their redan hole) to hit it low and chase it to the back part of the green. Depending on the wind I hit a 6 or 7 iron, and even to a redan green my ball is able to come down soft and stop right where it lands.

I think I hit it long and high mainly because of technology. Therefore, I think technology has, as Tom said, given me a different and easier option to play the redan. Why would I choose to play it low and hope I guess the ground game correctly when I can fly it to the hole, knowing the ball will sit right there?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

Are you stating that all architecture should be viewed solely from the perspective of the world's greatest golfer/s, ignoring all other, lesser golfers ?

Patrick:

Certainly not.  After all, I am one of those lesser golfers.  But even I can attack the Redan at National with a high fade nowadays, and it's the only shot I am likely to try unless I am just pulling the crap out of the ball every time I try to hit a fade.

My experience is that people are going to try the running draw only when it's the only option they've got.  So, if you give guys less than 15-handicaps the "option" of a high shot to the green, that's the only option they are going to consider or even recognize.

I learned this for sure from Pete Dye.  A couple of years after I had gone out on my own, I got a call from Pete.  The day before, he had gone around Old Marsh with the Ohio State golf team and one Jack Nicklaus.  He said, "You know how all those greens are the same height at the back as the front, and there is plenty of fairway in front of most of them, like you always want me to have?  Well, after watching Jack hit howitzers into the green for the whole front nine, when he was standing over his approach on ten, I asked him, 'Did you ever think about playing a low shot to a green like this and running it back to the hole?'  And Jack responded, 'Why would I want to do that?'"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Are you stating that all architecture should be viewed solely from the perspective of the world's greatest golfer/s, ignoring all other, lesser golfers ?

Patrick:

Certainly not.  After all, I am one of those lesser golfers.  But even I can attack the Redan at National with a high fade nowadays, and it's the only shot I am likely to try unless I am just pulling the crap out of the ball every time I try to hit a fade.

Tom, that's my point.
30 years ago, when you were younger and stronger, you wouldn't dream of hitting a high fade.
Now, even you hit that shot 

My experience is that people are going to try the running draw only when it's the only option they've got.  So, if you give guys less than 15-handicaps the "option" of a high shot to the green, that's the only option they are going to consider or even recognize.

Again, that's my point, high-tech has altered play.
40 years ago no-one would have attempted a high fade to that green

I learned this for sure from Pete Dye.  A couple of years after I had gone out on my own, I got a call from Pete.  The day before, he had gone around Old Marsh with the Ohio State golf team and one Jack Nicklaus.  He said, "You know how all those greens are the same height at the back as the front, and there is plenty of fairway in front of most of them, like you always want me to have?  Well, after watching Jack hit howitzers into the green for the whole front nine, when he was standing over his approach on ten, I asked him, 'Did you ever think about playing a low shot to a green like this and running it back to the hole?'  And Jack responded, 'Why would I want to do that?'"

[Mike Hendren]

Patrick, in 1989 I saw the fine mid-amateur Danny Green hit a wood into the 4th green at Augusta National Golf Club.  I assure you he was much more careful with the line he took than the professionals. 

The redan simply fails when approached with your buddy's 5-iron.  I'm guessing most Golden Age redans were built with a relatively tight teeing area.  To work for players of all skill levels they would be better served by more elasticity so that all players were required to approach with a hybrid type club - say from 180 to 240 yards.

Just a thought.

Mike

[Ken Moum]

On a slightly different tack, how does the presence of a lob wedge in every bag affect a hole like the Redan?  On my one play of North Berwick I hit EXACTLY the shot I wanted to, a lowish draw with a seven wood that bounce on the green and I two-putted for par to the front left hole location.

But my friend pulled his shot into the left bunker where he should have been dead but he took a full swing with his lob wedge, barely clearing the lip and the ball rolled in for a deuce.

Now, I have several wedges with 58 to 61 degrees of loft from the 30s, 40s and 50s, but they weren't common in amateur bags until Ping brought them back about 20 years ago.

So, does their presence take some of the risk out of holes like the Redan?

K

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, in 1989 I saw the fine mid-amateur Danny Green hit a wood into the 4th green at Augusta National Golf Club.  I assure you he was much more careful with the line he took than the professionals. 

The redan simply fails when approached with your buddy's 5-iron. 

Mike, I don't know that it fails, but, the intended play concept is substantively altered.

One of things that bothers me most about high tech affecting a designated play concept is seeing "Eden" holes lengthened to 200 yards in order to protect that concept.

 I'm guessing most Golden Age redans were built with a relatively tight teeing area.  To work for players of all skill levels they would be better served by more elasticity so that all players were required to approach with a hybrid type club - say from 180 to 240 yards.
Mike remember, when golf was played in the early days, golfers had to tee their ball up within one club length of the hole they had just holed out on.  It took nearly a century to change that rule........ to two club lengths.

The practice of creating six sets of tees in an attempt to "equalize" the challenge doesn't seem to be working when it comes to ceratin holes.

Just a thought.

Mike