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Scott Szabo

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Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2010, 01:00:24 PM »

Elasticity for me is perfectly defined as hole #8 at Sand Hills.  From the member's tees it is a very drivable par four; from the back tees, it is quite a different story.  And a great hole from either set of tees with differing features to contend with.  Having never set foot on Riviera, is there a hole there that fits the bill quite so elegantly as #8 at Sand Hills?  

I eagerly await the remaining 17 reasons.



Well, let me think about if Riviera has a short par four that will be discussed later in this series.  One that I may have even hit the best drive of my life onto....hmmmm.  This is tough.

John,

Obviously I know about what a great hole #10 is at Riviera.  Maybe I'm not understanding at all what you are meaning by elasticity. 

You started this topic off by discussing member's tees and the tips at both places.  So I provided a distinct example at Sand Hills that I don't believe is offered at Riviera.  I'm sure you are aware that number 8 at Sand Hills plays about 290 from the member's tees and 380 from the tips. 

How does #10 at Riviera compare from the member's tees?  I think it's about 310 from the tips, no?

Heck, while we're at it, why not throw in #5 at Sand Hills.  Straightforward from about 350 from the member's tees, but about 410 with the diagonal carry from the side of #4 green?  Elasticity - no?

"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2010, 01:08:14 PM »
Keep in mind that Sand Hills is about 2500-3000 feet above sea level, so the 7000 yards plays a little shorter, not to mention the fine bladed turf allows roll, where kikuyu tends to retard roll.

I've played Sand Hills from the back tees a few times.  Very fun and playable for me, an accurate 240-250 yard driver of the ball.  240-250 off the tee at Riviera won't quite cut it on holes like #11, #12 and #18.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2010, 01:28:08 PM »

Elasticity for me is perfectly defined as hole #8 at Sand Hills.  From the member's tees it is a very drivable par four; from the back tees, it is quite a different story.  And a great hole from either set of tees with differing features to contend with.  Having never set foot on Riviera, is there a hole there that fits the bill quite so elegantly as #8 at Sand Hills?  

I eagerly await the remaining 17 reasons.



Well, let me think about if Riviera has a short par four that will be discussed later in this series.  One that I may have even hit the best drive of my life onto....hmmmm.  This is tough.

John,

Obviously I know about what a great hole #10 is at Riviera.  Maybe I'm not understanding at all what you are meaning by elasticity. 

You started this topic off by discussing member's tees and the tips at both places.  So I provided a distinct example at Sand Hills that I don't believe is offered at Riviera.  I'm sure you are aware that number 8 at Sand Hills plays about 290 from the member's tees and 380 from the tips. 

How does #10 at Riviera compare from the member's tees?  I think it's about 310 from the tips, no?

Heck, while we're at it, why not throw in #5 at Sand Hills.  Straightforward from about 350 from the member's tees, but about 410 with the diagonal carry from the side of #4 green?  Elasticity - no?



Scott,

I chose Sand Hills because it may very well be the finest course in the world.  I may even leave this discussion telling those who ask me that Sand Hills is my favorite course of all time.  While I truly believe you can not have interesting dialogue without risk it is not my intention to say anything derogatory about Sand Hills where I was so graciously hosted.  Considering I have 17 reasons to go it is difficult for me to discuss specific holes in this thread about the elasticity of the entire courses.  You do make some great points that I will discuss specifically in the future.

A quick story for you Seinfeld fans.  The day I played Riviera from the members tees I was paired with the real life Lloyd Braun.  It turns out that Lloyd Braun lost a bet once with Larry David and was written into the series because of it, or perhaps he won the bet, who knows.  The celebrity angle of Riviera is hard to dismiss.  I do believe that many holes from the member tees do provide the types of elasticity you mention.  Off the top of my head the 13th comes to mind.


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2010, 01:36:05 PM »
I'm sorry but in the interest of full disclosure I have to mention that while playing with Lloyd Braun and his son, Johnny Mathis heard we were out on the course and rushed out with a fresh batch of cookies he had just pulled from the oven.  I guess Lloyds son, who was 15 at the time, loves his cookies.  No, Johnny Mathis fresh baked cookies was not reason number 12, but damn it I am human and can be bought.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2010, 01:38:40 PM »

For those of you who have ever played golf with me you can attest that perfect weather and conditions follow me wherever I go.  I played both Sand Hills and Riviera in superior weather and agronomic conditions.  I do sincerely feel for those not so lucky.

Yes, 5 beautiful days in the sand hills, thanks for that. Note the sunburn on Kav's calves.



John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2010, 01:40:58 PM »
Even better than fresh baked Johnny Mathis cookies is a perfectly struck one iron at Sand Hills.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2010, 01:43:33 PM »
I hope you benched that putter. Woulda coulda shoulda been a classic bird.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2010, 01:49:07 PM »
The elasticity of Riviera may be unsurpassed in the golfing world whereas Sand Hills, like most courses is equally fun for me from any tee.  Riviera from the tips is only playable, as it should be, for those with the talents to play in the US Open.  At my age and fitness every athletic field should make me want for lost potential and wasted days.

JK,

You may prefer Riviera, but your comment above (my emphasis) suggests the opposite- unless you have masochistic tendencies.  If I may question your judgement, the tips at Sand Hills under normal conditions (very windy) coupled with the more difficult green complexes make for greater challenge (curiously, both are 7013 yards from the back tees with a par of 71).  In addition to SH's harsher environment, the topography and surrounds are more demanding.

Elasticity can also refer to a course having sufficient room to add yardage.  If my recollection is accurate, Riviera is pretty much stretched out to the property lines whereas SH appears to have a lot of room to expand.  True, Riviera's kikuyu adds some difficulty to indifferent golfers like me, but it would be near the top of my list if it played as Thomas designed it- in the air AND on the ground.  

Lou makes a somewhat typical observation that I should enjoy a course that suits my game from every possible tee.  I don't know if Riviera even publishes their yardage from the tips including such monsters as the new back tee on 12 but I am convinced the course plays, elevation and firmness included, at least 600 yds longer than Sand Hills.  I once played Riviera on the Monday after their tour event from the Sunday set up and there were seven par fours that I could not reach in regulation.  It was chilly and damp and I had a touch of the gout but I just didn't have the game that the boys the day before me possessed.

JK,

What can I say about making a "typical observation"; while picking up my mother at the airport right before Christmans many years ago, she scolded me in rapid-fire Spanish of being "common, vulgar, and ordinary" because I declined to drive 60+ miles out of my way to give a ride home to a young man she had just met on her flight.  I guess I am guilty.

But where did I make such an observation that you "should enjoy a course that suits my game from every possible tee"?  I may have questioned how you arrive at your preferences, but who am I to criticize proclivities to the extraordinary and the outlandish such as references to a "woman's cervix" (are there other types? though having some familiarity with your mindset, you might have been seeking to be precise by differentiating from others you might like to challenge one day).  But I digress.

Do you think that Riv on a cold day with a PGA Tour setup might not be playing just a little bit different than normal and perhaps not a great basis for comparison to SH on a "superior" day hosting regular member and guest rounds?

"Fun" is important in my book, but it does not necessarily correlate with fitting my game- in that case I would just play the short tees and have a blast.  I don't know that Riv is that more difficult under normal conditions than SH with equal set-ups.  In fact, I suspect that from the backs at both, I would shoot a considerable higher score on SH because of the wind and native surrounds.  Riv is more similar to Colonial CC in FW, though it does play longer because of the kikuyu.  When I was playing reasonably well, I would not have a problem shooting around 80 at either, but probably would not shoot much higher or lower.  At SH, my range would likely be much greater though length would not account for the differences- it is just more rugged as is the environment.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 01:52:43 PM by Lou_Duran »

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2010, 02:07:03 PM »
Lou,

I have played Riviera in all types of conditions.  The fact that I drove 10 from the back tee proves the course must have been dry and the wind howling.

The day I played from the members tees Lloyd Braun's son needed a 5 on 18 to break 80 for the first time in his life.  It was a perfect day with optimal scoring conditions. I still feel bad to this day because the kid asked me advice on his second shot and I told him to go for it when his dad wanted him to lay up for an easy five and that elusive 79.  The kid made a six and I felt like a dick, but at least it wasn't the first time.

Scott Szabo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2010, 03:22:47 PM »

For those of you who have ever played golf with me you can attest that perfect weather and conditions follow me wherever I go.  I played both Sand Hills and Riviera in superior weather and agronomic conditions.  I do sincerely feel for those not so lucky.

Yes, 5 beautiful days in the sand hills, thanks for that. Note the sunburn on Kav's calves.




Number 11 from the up tees?
"So your man hit it into a fairway bunker, hit the wrong side of the green, and couldn't hit a hybrid off a sidehill lie to take advantage of his length? We apologize for testing him so thoroughly." - Tom Doak, 6/29/10

Tony Weiler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2010, 03:49:52 PM »

For those of you who have ever played golf with me you can attest that perfect weather and conditions follow me wherever I go.  I played both Sand Hills and Riviera in superior weather and agronomic conditions.  I do sincerely feel for those not so lucky.

Yes, 5 beautiful days in the sand hills, thanks for that. Note the sunburn on Kav's calves.




Number 11 from the up tees?

Correct

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2010, 03:58:55 PM »

For those of you who have ever played golf with me you can attest that perfect weather and conditions follow me wherever I go.  I played both Sand Hills and Riviera in superior weather and agronomic conditions.  I do sincerely feel for those not so lucky.

Yes, 5 beautiful days in the sand hills, thanks for that. Note the sunburn on Kav's calves.




Look how pink his forearm is!!

John - what is your address?  I am going to send you some sunscreen for Christmas.  It hurts just looking at it.
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2010, 04:02:06 PM »
Scott,

I didn't hit iron on the first go around and quickly learned I did not have the game to carry the left bunker. Our caddie suffered a head injury the night beforehand was a no show.  I would say the eleventh is a fine example of where elasticity exists without added length. I grabbed the one iron out of Eric's bag and was left with 9 iron in so I am not sure trying to carry the left bunker is a sane play.  Great hole better than the 11th at Riviera if that helps.  

I recently posted my address in a lame attempt to borrow a book.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2010, 04:12:27 PM »
JK,

I'm remembering a different instance where you hit the 1 iron. Didn't you also hit it on 14 the first go round? That's where I thought I remembered you lipping out a 5 footer for bird. I'm thinking you hit 1 iron, 1 iron then pitched up there close? Hell, maybe you hit my grandad's persimmon driver there. It's all a blur.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2010, 04:20:11 PM »
JK,

I'm remembering a different instance where you hit the 1 iron. Didn't you also hit it on 14 the first go round? That's where I thought I remembered you lipping out a 5 footer for bird. I'm thinking you hit 1 iron, 1 iron then pitched up there close? Hell, maybe you hit my grandad's persimmon driver there. It's all a blur.

I hit the persimmon driver at Ballyneal that by some miracle was 50 yards past my modern Callaway. Once I hit that one iron well I had the good sense to not hit it again.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2010, 04:31:36 PM »
Since we are starting to lose the thread I will offer a tease to reason #2.  I believe the greens as a whole at Riviera are more memorable. New thread reasoning why on Monday.

Tony Weiler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2010, 04:48:18 PM »
Since we are starting to lose the thread I will offer a tease to reason #2.  I believe the greens as a whole at Riviera are more memorable. New thread reasoning why on Monday.
Wow, that I want to read, as I thought the Sand Hills greens were simply outstanding (even though I didn't like #2 very much the first time). 

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2010, 05:01:53 PM »
Monday...Monday...c'mon...I need more golf talk!!!

I think I am with John in concept.  Sand Hills greens were (at least to me) the ideal mix of speed and undulations and they were perfect for putting on...and holing putts. 

BUT where they memorable?  Which is what he said, Riviera's greens are more memorable.  Of course, I don't know...I haven't played Riviera.  But I can say there are many sets of greens that are more memorable to me that Sand Hill's.  Ballyneal, NGLA, Seminole, Rivermont, Sebonack, Lookout Mountain...okay, I'll stop now. 

So, I get it.  But waiting until Monday to hear John's formal thought?!?!?  You are killing me!!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2010, 05:41:45 PM »
Monday...Monday...c'mon...I need more golf talk!!!

I think I am with John in concept.  Sand Hills greens were (at least to me) the ideal mix of speed and undulations and they were perfect for putting on...and holing putts. 

BUT where they memorable?  Which is what he said, Riviera's greens are more memorable.  Of course, I don't know...I haven't played Riviera.  But I can say there are many sets of greens that are more memorable to me that Sand Hill's.  Ballyneal, NGLA, Seminole, Rivermont, Sebonack, Lookout Mountain...okay, I'll stop now. 

So, I get it.  But waiting until Monday to hear John's formal thought?!?!?  You are killing me!!!

Mac,

I can see why you may wish to 'forget' the greens at Sand Hills. ;) ;D


Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: 18 reasons why I prefer Riviera to Sand Hills
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2010, 05:51:48 PM »
Hey...that was one of my better holes!!!!    :D


But seriously, look at that picture.  Look at the hole and at the surrounding outside of the hole.  Wow!!!

Freakin' wow!!!
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

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