[John Kavanaugh]

I've played a good number of great courses west of Ohio and come away in the belief that The Riviera CC is the finest course I have ever played.  To defend that position I have selected the obvious choice of Sand Hills to defend my position.  Over the course of time I will be listing each reason why for further discussion.

1.  Elasticity.

I have played both Riviera and Sand Hills from both the members and extreme tips.  The elasticity of Riviera may be unsurpassed in the golfing world whereas Sand Hills, like most courses is equally fun for me from any tee.  Riviera from the tips is only playable, as it should be, for those with the talents to play in the US Open.  At my age and fitness every athletic field should make me want for lost potential and wasted days.

Is there an opposing argument to the superiority of Riveria's elasticity to that of Sand Hills?

[George Pazin]

...The elasticity of Riviera may be unsurpassed in the golfing world whereas Sand Hills, like most courses is equally fun for me from any tee.

This is a really interesting, unique definition of elasticity - I mean that - I'd love to hear others comment on it.

On the face of it, you'd think it's a plus for a course to be equally fun from all tees, but in a lot of ways, this version makes more sense. (Not necessarily as it applies to either Riv or SH, haven't played either, so I can't comment on the accuracy, just the general definition.)

[JC Jones]

...The elasticity of Riviera may be unsurpassed in the golfing world whereas Sand Hills, like most courses is equally fun for me from any tee.

This is a really interesting, unique definition of elasticity - I mean that - I'd love to hear others comment on it.

I think that if we define elasticity generally to mean some sort of ratio for change then I think Mr. K is applying it correctly.  In that there isn't much difference, to him, between the tips and the members tees at Sand Hills as far as playability is concerned but there is at Riviera.

[George Freeman]

I would define the word elasticity to mean how different the course can be set up, and therefore play, from day to day, month to month, season to season, etc, not necessarily just how hard the tips are vs. how much easier the other tees are.  

When I think elasticity, I think:
- Numerous pin position which alter the way you play a hole
- Firmness of the golf course
- varying green speeds (while still being playable)
- Being able to put tees at very different markers (from tips all the way up to the 3rd-4th set) to create very different challenges on any give hole (and still achieve a "normal" length and interesting course in aggregate) - think drivable par 4 one day, unreachable the next with different obstacles for each scenario
- a course playing very differently in varying wind conditions

[Jim_Kennedy]

If you are limiting that to the one dimension of length then I guess you'd be correct.      

[Lou_Duran]

The elasticity of Riviera may be unsurpassed in the golfing world whereas Sand Hills, like most courses is equally fun for me from any tee.  Riviera from the tips is only playable, as it should be, for those with the talents to play in the US Open.  At my age and fitness every athletic field should make me want for lost potential and wasted days.

JK,

You may prefer Riviera, but your comment above (my emphasis) suggests the opposite- unless you have masochistic tendencies.  If I may question your judgement, the tips at Sand Hills under normal conditions (very windy) coupled with the more difficult green complexes make for greater challenge (curiously, both are 7013 yards from the back tees with a par of 71).  In addition to SH's harsher environment, the topography and surrounds are more demanding.

Elasticity can also refer to a course having sufficient room to add yardage.  If my recollection is accurate, Riviera is pretty much stretched out to the property lines whereas SH appears to have a lot of room to expand.  True, Riviera's kikuyu adds some difficulty to indifferent golfers like me, but it would be near the top of my list if it played as Thomas designed it- in the air AND on the ground.  

[Mac Plumart]

John...

I can't wait until the day I can make this comparison.  Riviera seems amazing!!

Using your definition of elasticity, I think in order to add value to the site a few things need to be disclosed.

First and foremost, you are one of the most consistent ball strikers I've ever seen play the game.  Frankly, you are right up there with a good friend of mine who is a +4 handicap who has won many big time amateur tournaments.  So, to say you could handle Sand Hills from the tips doesn't mean others can.  In fact on that same day, I shot 84 the first time we played Sand Hills from the middle tees or the one up tees or whatever you want to call them.  And then when we moved back for our second 18 from the back tees...it was border line unplayable for me.  My 230 to 250 yard drives were adequate to carry the forced carries...but just barely at times.  And I had many long irons into the greens.

But like I said, I haven't played Riviera...so maybe this lines up perfectly with what you are saying. 

Secondly, if you could putt...any course from any distance would be playable for you!!!   

[Scott Szabo]

John,

For those of us who have not played Riviera, what kind of yardage are you speaking of when referring to the member's tees?  Are you saying Riviera is that much harder from the tips than Sand Hills?  Frankly, I would find that hard to believe.  Sand Hills from the tips, with a steady wind, is as much course as anyone could handle.   

As for elasticity, I would tend to agree with George Freeman's assessment.  If there's a course out there that provides more elasticity than Sand Hills I would love to see it.  The wind is constantly changing both in direction and velocity, providing an everchanging playing field.  The course plays distinctively different depending on which tees you choose.  The wind direction and velocity can change drastically throughout the day, even throughout a round, making a morning 18 play so much different than an afternoon or evening 18.   

Elasticity for me is perfectly defined as hole #8 at Sand Hills.  From the member's tees it is a very drivable par four; from the back tees, it is quite a different story.  And a great hole from either set of tees with differing features to contend with.  Having never set foot on Riviera, is there a hole there that fits the bill quite so elegantly as #8 at Sand Hills? 

I eagerly await the remaining 17 reasons.

[Sean_A]

...The elasticity of Riviera may be unsurpassed in the golfing world whereas Sand Hills, like most courses is equally fun for me from any tee.

This is a really interesting, unique definition of elasticity - I mean that - I'd love to hear others comment on it.

On the face of it, you'd think it's a plus for a course to be equally fun from all tees, but in a lot of ways, this version makes more sense. (Not necessarily as it applies to either Riv or SH, haven't played either, so I can't comment on the accuracy, just the general definition.)

Yes, I tend to think of elasticity in terms of length or width (off the tee especially) rather than weather conditions or or course conditions, but it doesn't really mater what we call it so long as we are all on the same page as JakaB. 

The one aspect I am curious about in comparing the two from the tips is what is to be accomplished from back there.  Riviera is a championship course and Sands Hills is not so its isn't surprising if it plays differently.  That could well be part of the design differences - not good or bad just differewnt so long as the Riviera is doable and fun for the slash master.

Ciao

[Lou_Duran]

John...

First and foremost, you are one of the most consistent ball strikers I've ever seen play the game.  Frankly, you are right up there with a good friend of mine who is a +4 handicap who has won many big time amateur tournaments. 

My apologies, I must have the wrong JK.

"Riviera is a championship course and Sands Hills is not so its isn't surprising if it plays differently." says Sean Arble and who else?

Does holding tournaments make a "championship course"?  I would like to see SH set up for the US Open like WF-West or Bethpage Black and have the boys go at it.

[Adam Clayman]

Well, The houses around Riviera are certainly much nicer. The weather is nicer, all year round. And the Clubhouse and accommodations can not be beat at The Riv.

I would argue that there's not one bad hole at SH. Yet the 8th green at The Riv is an abomination.

 I was unfortunate enough to play Riviera on a day when neither the 6th or 16th greens were allowed. That's elastic.

 The Eucalyptus trees, especially on 13, are horrible.

The Kikuyu turf, in the Palisades, makes the course play much longer and rather one dimensionally.

It is an interesting comparison considering how much Thomas's principles influence C&C. Throw in the recent work of Mr. Marzloff (sp?) and I think John is just being... uh.. uh...well... uh.. John.

[M. Shea Sweeney]

John...


"Riviera is a championship course and Sands Hills is not so its isn't surprising if it plays differently." says Sean Arble and who else?

Does holding tournaments make a "championship course"?  I would like to see SH set up for the US Open like WF-West or Bethpage Black and have the boys go at it.

What else would give a course the name "championship"?

[Adam Clayman]

There have tournamebts contested at SH. Not necessarily the pros but college. The term championship course is meaningless in this example. The tours not going to a Demographic of 752 souls. 

[TEPaul]

I don't have much of anything to say about the elasticity of those two courses but the aura of those two courses (not the clubs, the courses) are about as different as night and day to me, and both courses have very cool auras.

Where I come from we just don't have those kinds of canyon auras the SoCal area has and we sure don't have any auras like Sand Hills and Nebraska but they are both really great and massively different to me.

When I first saw Riviera I was not ready for how sort of enclosing those big canyon walls seem to be when you look up at them but despite that there is such an interesting feeling when on the course that you are not closed in. You have to look up at the tops of those canyon walls to feel that. The holes of Riviera are so neat they all seem to grab your constant attention so I guess golfers tend not to look up to the tops of those canyon walls very often (and I wonder what it was like in the old days when there weren't all those mansions looking down on you from the tops of those Canyon walls?). It's one of the most unusual auras I've ever seen on a golf course.

I love California and I loved Sand Hills but I love going home too!

"Golf and its architecture is a great Big Thing and there is room in it for everyone." (the "Big World" theory)

[Bill_McBride]

When I saw the title of this thread I said to myself, "huh?"

Talk about comparing apples to oranges!  Why even bother?!

[JC Jones]

When I saw the title of this thread I said to myself, "huh?"

Talk about comparing apples to oranges!  Why even bother?!

I think the point of the thread is to contrast apples and oranges.

Seems like a fun, thought provoking exercise.  I look forward to seeing how it unfolds.

[John Kavanaugh]

When I saw the title of this thread I said to myself, "huh?"

Talk about comparing apples to oranges!  Why even bother?!

Why bother is a good question so I will answer it first.  It is not uncommon for someone to ask me what course is my personal favorite.  My answer for the last few years has easily been Riviera.  With that being said now that I have played Sand Hills I must for whatever set of reasons enjoy Riviera more.  This is simply a thread outlining those reasons which are up for debate because I have the right to change my mind.

Two points of note:

I believe in a social setting when someone asks the question of what is your favorite course they want a simple and quick answer.  I am not going to be a bore and go into a diatribe about how I have played so many places I just can't name one.  That would seem rude.

For those of you who have ever played golf with me you can attest that perfect weather and conditions follow me wherever I go.  I played both Sand Hills and Riviera in superior weather and agronomic conditions.  I do sincerely feel for those not so lucky.

[Michael Hayes]

From JakaB

"For those of you who have ever played golf with me you can attest that perfect weather and conditions follow me wherever I go.  I played both Sand Hills and Riviera in superior weather and agronomic conditions.  I do sincerely feel for those not so lucky."

I suppose someone can say these were perfect weather conditions but...


John makes me laugh and think, GCA is a better place with him.
MH

[John Kavanaugh]

The elasticity of Riviera may be unsurpassed in the golfing world whereas Sand Hills, like most courses is equally fun for me from any tee.  Riviera from the tips is only playable, as it should be, for those with the talents to play in the US Open.  At my age and fitness every athletic field should make me want for lost potential and wasted days.

JK,

You may prefer Riviera, but your comment above (my emphasis) suggests the opposite- unless you have masochistic tendencies.  If I may question your judgement, the tips at Sand Hills under normal conditions (very windy) coupled with the more difficult green complexes make for greater challenge (curiously, both are 7013 yards from the back tees with a par of 71).  In addition to SH's harsher environment, the topography and surrounds are more demanding.

Elasticity can also refer to a course having sufficient room to add yardage.  If my recollection is accurate, Riviera is pretty much stretched out to the property lines whereas SH appears to have a lot of room to expand.  True, Riviera's kikuyu adds some difficulty to indifferent golfers like me, but it would be near the top of my list if it played as Thomas designed it- in the air AND on the ground.  

Lou makes a somewhat typical observation that I should enjoy a course that suits my game from every possible tee.  I don't know if Riviera even publishes their yardage from the tips including such monsters as the new back tee on 12 but I am convinced the course plays, elevation and firmness included, at least 600 yds longer than Sand Hills.  I once played Riviera on the Monday after their tour event from the Sunday set up and there were seven par fours that I could not reach in regulation.  It was chilly and damp and I had a touch of the gout but I just didn't have the game that the boys the day before me possessed.  This comes to an important point in my evaluation:

Given the choices I have made in my life I have not earned the right to enjoy every course in every set up.  The fact that I choose to be +290lbs is not the fault of anyone but myself and should not be used as a standard against those who have done the work necessary to strike the ball in ways I can not.

As I said in my earlier post I enjoy that there are things in my life that I have not yet achieved and may not ever.  While at 50 time is beginning to pass me by I feel it is important to give me a reason and a desire to dream of being a better man and all that comes with the responsibility.  In golf a set of tees can be like a woman's cervix, I have no business trying to hit it but I'll day dream all damn day that I might.

[John Kavanaugh]

If you are limiting that to the one dimension of length then I guess you'd be correct.      

I would consider both courses equally able to adjust their width given time to prepare.  As far as pin placements go I would give the edge to Riviera, without considering the green complexes as we will later, because of the barranca that runs through the property.  The barranca is the exact reason so many par fours become unreachable for me from the tips.

One more quick note:  I do enjoy the fact how both courses start with a short par 5 and finish with a long uphill par 4.  I don't think this comparison is as much apples and oranges as first look implies.

[John Kavanaugh]

Elasticity for me is perfectly defined as hole #8 at Sand Hills.  From the member's tees it is a very drivable par four; from the back tees, it is quite a different story.  And a great hole from either set of tees with differing features to contend with.  Having never set foot on Riviera, is there a hole there that fits the bill quite so elegantly as #8 at Sand Hills?  

I eagerly await the remaining 17 reasons.

Well, let me think about if Riviera has a short par four that will be discussed later in this series.  One that I may have even hit the best drive of my life onto....hmmmm.  This is tough.

[JMEvensky]

  In golf a set of tees can be like a woman's cervix, I have no business trying to hit it but I'll day dream all damn day that I might.

I wish I was witty enough to do this one justice.I hope Gib P. sees this.

[John Kirk]

Dude that's funny.  "At your service, ma'am"

Tuning in and waiting for reason no. 2.  I'm listening because your premise has merit.  Riviera has some of the best holes I've ever played.  The walk is easy and enjoyable.

[Sean_A]

John...

First and foremost, you are one of the most consistent ball strikers I've ever seen play the game.  Frankly, you are right up there with a good friend of mine who is a +4 handicap who has won many big time amateur tournaments. 

My apologies, I must have the wrong JK.

"Riviera is a championship course and Sands Hills is not so its isn't surprising if it plays differently." says Sean Arble and who else?

Does holding tournaments make a "championship course"?  I would like to see SH set up for the US Open like WF-West or Bethpage Black and have the boys go at it.

Lou

Aaaah, yes.  There are elements to championship courses which make them that sort of venue.  In the case of Riv I am told the barrancas are a serious pain for joe bloggs let alone for joe bloggs from the tips.  I would also say that because of this status the club is will do more to maintain that difficulty.  I am also betting that Riv is more than 7100 from the tips.  NOne of this is to say that Riv is better, but being a championship course does mean something.

Ciao

[Tony Weiler]

John, those of us who have not played Riviera may be somewhat disadvantaged in this discussion, but that day at SH was absoluetely perfect weather (in the 70's and not a breath of wind).  Having played the "up" tee before we went all the way back, made me seriously consider if a course is "better" from the tips.  I felt that SH was, as it was just a better course, for many reasons, the most of which for me was I saw sight lines from tee and fairway I hadn't seen from the forward tee.  Now, that doesn't mean that I scored better (even though we both played very well that day, except 18 kicked my ass both rounds), but I think I realized that an architect may start from the back set of tees when designing a great course, then simply add upper tees.  I do think, perhaps getting back on topic, that SH would be a beast from the back (at least for me) with just a bit more wind.   Do conditions factor into "elasticity?" TW

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