[Sean_A]

One And Done Courses (unless there are special circumstances)?  We hear so much about the awesome depth of Scottish golf, but is some of this depth just medicore golf in a good location?  Of golf that is so expensive that all we want to afford is one look?  Or not bad courses, but indeed in an area of riches.  Though I would certainly recommend folks see some of these courses if nearby, none really did it for me. 

Tain - boring
The Glen - if this was just the lower part then the course would be much better
Troon - too expensive, treated poorly
Shiskine - beautiful spot with a few good holes, but not worth the journey unless you plan to be on Arran
Carnoustie - too tough and expensive
Gullane 2 & 3 - though I could see myself changing my mind on these two, their proximity to other very fine courses seals their doom for now
Murcar - too many blah holes, but I haven't seen the changes
Glasgow Gailes - boring
Leven - not bad, but too many other courses nearby I would rather play given how rarely I make it up there
Crail - see above
Golspie - see above
Troon Portland - boring
Stonehaven - beautiful, but lacking a bit in substance

Ciao
 

[jeffwarne]

One And Done Courses (unless there are special circumstances)?  We hear so much about the awesome depth of Scottish golf, but is some of this depth just medicore golf in a good location?  Of golf that is so expensive that all we want to afford is one look?  Or not bad courses, but indeed in an area of riches.  Though I would certainly recommend folks see some of these courses if nearby, none really did it for me.  

Tain - boring
The Glen - if this was just the lower part then the course would be much better
Troon - too expensive, treated poorly
Shiskine - beautiful spot with a few good holes, but not worth the journey unless you plan to be on Arran
Carnoustie - too tough and expensive
Gullane 2 & 3 - though I could see myself changing my mind on these two, their proximity to other very fine courses seals their doom for now
Murcar - too many blah holes, but I haven't seen the changes
Glasgow Gailes - boring
Leven - not bad, but too many other courses nearby I would rather play given how rarely I make it up there
Crail - see above
Golspie - see above
Troon Portland - boring
Stonehaven - beautiful, but lacking a bit in substance

Ciao
  

Sean,
I'm with you on
Tain
The Glen (although I liked it more than most on GCA-I don't think most would get to the 1 play)
Troon-agreed
Shiskine-loved it and have been there twice (so I can't call it a one and done-would go back again, but admittedly it's a great stop on the way to Machrihnishand a nice pairing with Carradale
Carnoustie-(none and done)
Gullane -the #1 course is a one and done for me so I guess the other courses are a none and done
Murcar-really liked it and would go back
Glasgow Gailles-ok but in an area witha lot of better golf
Leven-not played
Crail-I feel very overrated-done there
Golspie-done
Troon Portland -good golf course but only played because it's part of the 2 and done at Troon-so done
Stonehaven-not yet played

understand I was not disappointed with courses listed, just with so many great and yet unseen courses, I just probably wouldn't go back to many listed

[Bill_McBride]

Sean, do you find Lundin to be that much better than Leven, or did you leave it off?

I haven't played Leven so don't know for myself. I can't imagine that Leven has a worse hole than Lundin's 13th!

I hold the Balcomie at Crail in high regard so can't agree on that one.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sean, do you find Lundin to be that much better than Leven, or did you leave it off?

I haven't played Leven so don't know for myself. I can't imagine that Leven has a worse hole than Lundin's 13th!

I hold the Balcomie at Crail in high regard so can't agree on that one.

I'm with Bill on Balcomie... with bells on.

Can they still play the old out and back Lundin/ Leven original course? That would make it a must return.

[Melvyn Morrow]

One man’s meat is another’s poison, not to mention the company one plays with or weather conditionat the time,  all play a part on these courses.

Fully accept cost of some Green Fees, but what I can‘t understand is words like “too tough” & “boring”.  When there are Island Greens, Shallow bunkers and strategic designs that a blind man could navigate around without a white stick or his dog (no disrespect intended towards the blind or their dogs), yet golfers scream blue murder if the hazards prove to be testing.

Sorry Sean, on many things I agree but some of your points in this topic are just too general.

Melvyn

[Mark Pearce]

Tain, The Glen, Troon, Shiskine, Murcar, Glasgow Gailes, Golspie, Troon Portland, Stonehaven - haven't played these, so can't comment
Carnoustie - too tough and expensive - I disagree.  I really enjoyed Carnoustie, despite playing it on a miserable day and look forward to going back
Gullane 2 & 3 - though I could see myself changing my mind on these two, their proximity to other very fine courses seals their doom for now - again I disagree.  I'd play these ahead of No 1 (and certainly when considering value) which I do think is over-rated.  Yes, there's lots of good golf around there but Gullane 2 & 3 are both exactly the sort of course I would have thought you would enjoy.

Leven - not bad, but too many other courses nearby I would rather play given how rarely I make it up there - I played this for the first time this summer (with Ulrich) and loved it.  Plenty of quirk, massive, undulating greens, I really enjoyed it and will certainly play it again next year.  Also I have a soft spot for courses (Seaton Carew) that have less than promising backdrops and Leven, with its rather drab approach, entertainment arcade and caravan park satisfies that.
Crail - see above - despite being a member I have some sympathy here.  Certainly I originally considered Crail a substitute for Elie.  However, there's nothing quite as life-affirming as coming over the hill on a clear, sunny day and, as I have played it more I have come to appreciate it more.  There are a number of good holes if no really great ones and the whole thing is a fun package.

[Sean_A]

Ace

I haven't played Lundin in a great many years so any comment would likely be amiss.  

Jeff & Mark

Gullane 2 and 3 really are decent courses.  I often wonder if they could have had better results with just 36 holes.  In any case, despite none of the courses really doing it for me, I could see myself joining the club because there are enough cracking holes over the three courses to satisfy anyone.

Yes, I know I buck the trend with Crail, but there is an awful of back n' forth over some very average terrain.  Still, there are a handful of holes which excite and I wouldn't be disappointed if I joined a tour (that somebody else organized) and Crail was a stop. 

There are a few courses which I think are good, but I am still reluctant to play again for various reasons:

Machrihanish - the last several holes badly let the course down, but there is the Dunes close by so that is likely enough of a draw AFTER I see Machrie - so the isolation is a bit of a problem.

Nairn - quite expensive for what it is, but its location near the airport is a huge bonus

Southerness - I like the course, but its a bit isolated

Gullane #1 - very expensive for what it is (more in the class of Little Aston than Royal Aberdeen), but a good standby in the area if another course falls through  

I would like to do a tour of some of the smaller Scottish courses, but they are so spread out as to necessitate a long tour or several shorter ones that I am more likely to stick south of the border for that kind of kick.  Maybe one day.

Ciao

[Jason Topp]

I have enjoyed every course I have played in Scotland.  Nonetheless, I probably would not include the following courses on a future itinerary unless others on the trip had a strong desire to visit:

Troon - too expensive and stuffy for the quality of the course.

Ladybank - Nice course but not that much different from playing in the US.  It is a nice choice if part of your travelling party is tired of being beaten up by links wind.

Gullane - I do not recall a lot of interesting contour.  Up an over a big hill.  I would rather add another round at others in the area.

[Mark Pearce]

Gullane 1 would certainly be on my list.  Others might include Reay, Ayr Belleisle, Dalmahoy, Taymouth Castle, Kingussie and Musselbrough.

[Carl Johnson]

One And Done Courses (unless there are special circumstances)?  We hear so much about the awesome depth of Scottish golf, but is some of this depth just medicore golf in a good location?  Of golf that is so expensive that all we want to afford is one look?  Or not bad courses, but indeed in an area of riches.  Though I would certainly recommend folks see some of these courses if nearby, none really did it for me.  

Tain - boring Haven't played
The Glen - if this was just the lower part then the course would be much better Disagree.  I'd go back.  I thought is was fun, reasonably priced and friendly.
Troon - too expensive, treated poorly Agree, although I would not say we were treated poorly.  It just wasn't a very friendly place.
Shiskine - beautiful spot with a few good holes, but not worth the journey unless you plan to be on Arran Haven't played
Carnoustie - too tough and expensive Agreed, and boring on top of that.
Gullane 2 & 3 - though I could see myself changing my mind on these two, their proximity to other very fine courses seals their doom for now Haven't played
Murcar - too many blah holes, but I haven't seen the changes Haven't played
Glasgow Gailes - boring Agreed, not very interesting
Leven - not bad, but too many other courses nearby I would rather play given how rarely I make it up there Haven't played
Crail - see above Agreed. Although Balcomie is of historical interest, standing alone I don't think it has much going for it
Golspie - see above Haven't played
Troon Portland - boring Agreed
Stonehaven - beautiful, but lacking a bit in substance Haven't played
Ciao
  
I'll add Muirfield.  As an average recreational golfer I found the course to be boring, though difficult, and the visitor environment not welcoming, and it is very expensive.

And Lundin Golf Club.  Although not particularly expensive I didn't think it had much going for it, and the one member we came in contact with was not what I would call a friendly sort, although the "pro" or "starter" was quite welcoming.

But not to sound negative, I would go back to Dunbar, Golf House Club (Elie) St. Andrews Links Old, New & Jubilee, Dornoch, Turnberry, Prestwick, Belleisle, Bogside, Cruden Bay - these come to mind off hand.

[JNC Lyon]

Sean, et al:

I don't know if I would describe Tain as boring.  How about the second shot over the road on 1?  The two great short fours at 6 and 15?  The Alps hole out to the Dornoch Firth at 11?  The two neat par threes coming in?  I think the course has several good movements, and the consistently rumpled terrain (minus 12) makes it a neat experience.

Is it a One-and-Done? I think I'd play it again if I was in the area, though I would do it after playing multiple rounds at Brora and Dornoch.  My Dad and I didn't plan to play Tain, but we tried it on the spur of the moment since it was a 10-15 walk from our hotel.  It was a pretty cool round too--the wind was howling the whole time, and we finished up at well past 9 PM in May.  Is Tain a great course? No, but it can lend itself to a great golf experience in Northern Scotland.

Based on many reviews on here and elsewhere, I avoided Carnoustie and Troon like the plague.  Why would you pay so much money for these courses when there are other great courses in the area (like Prestwick near Troon)?

[Mark Pearce]

Based on many reviews on here and elsewhere, I avoided Carnoustie and Troon like the plague.  Why would you pay so much money for these courses when there are other great courses in the area (like Prestwick near Troon)?

John,

So that you can form your own opinion?  I normally reckon that there's a strong correlation between Sean's opinion of a course and mine.  It's clear that we disagree completely on Carnoustie.  You may have found that you also disagreed.  I'm not the only poster here that thinks Carnoustie is maybe a top 5 course in Scotland and certainly a top 10.

I posted earlier this year that I had little desire to play Troon, a view mostly based on other peoples' opinions posted here.  Another, much wiser, poster picked me up on this and suggested that I should make my mind up for myself which I fully intend to do next year.

[Tom_Doak]

Sean,

I famously panned Gullane 2 in The Confidential Guide, and didn't plan to ever go back ... but I played it again a few years ago when the number 1 was booked up, and I really liked it.  Gullane 3 is a favorite of Archie Baird's and I really enjoyed playing it with him.

[jeffwarne]

Based on many reviews on here and elsewhere, I avoided Carnoustie and Troon like the plague.  Why would you pay so much money for these courses when there are other great courses in the area (like Prestwick near Troon)?

John,

So that you can form your own opinion?  I normally reckon that there's a strong correlation between Sean's opinion of a course and mine.  It's clear that we disagree completely on Carnoustie.  You may have found that you also disagreed.  I'm not the only poster here that thinks Carnoustie is maybe a top 5 course in Scotland and certainly a top 10.

I posted earlier this year that I had little desire to play Troon, a view mostly based on other peoples' opinions posted here.  Another, much wiser, poster picked me up on this and suggested that I should make my mind up for myself which I fully intend to do next year.

Interestingly,
Troon has lowered the rate from 200 to 175 pounds for both courses. roughly 260 dollars for an Open venue and another good golf course+lunch
for an American given the recent improvement in the exchange, that's a remarkable change from the 200 pounds I paid at 2:1 rate

[Ben Stephens]

Based on many reviews on here and elsewhere, I avoided Carnoustie and Troon like the plague.  Why would you pay so much money for these courses when there are other great courses in the area (like Prestwick near Troon)?

John,

So that you can form your own opinion?  I normally reckon that there's a strong correlation between Sean's opinion of a course and mine.  It's clear that we disagree completely on Carnoustie.  You may have found that you also disagreed.  I'm not the only poster here that thinks Carnoustie is maybe a top 5 course in Scotland and certainly a top 10.

I agree with you Mark, having played Carnoustie numerous times while at University of Dundee. Its an absolute cracker - forget the surrounds the golf course asks you so many questions and it punishes the slightly poor shot - hey I always have fun there last time I played I finished eagle, double bogey, birdie, bogey, triple bogey! - there have been different names given to it such as 'Carnasty' (which I think is unfair), 'The Big Shaggy Giant' (due to its poor condition in the early days) but my favourite of all is the 'Tayside Terror' and its the current world no.1 golfer's favourite course.

Alonside Royal County Down it is the best conditioned links course I have played and it is very fair.

JNC - Sean and I have very different views on golf courses - he loves Pennard, I don't in my view its an OK course which screams huge potential to be a world class course. Value for money Carnoustie is the best of the Open rota courses to play on. This was an huge missed opportunity for you.

Cheers
Ben

[Peter Pallotta]

Sean - apologies in advance for the broad and OT question (as always, I can't add to specific discussions): Iis there any commonality of experience for you between one and done courses in Scotland and one and done courses in England? In other words - are your expectations not being met in similar ways in both places? 

Peter

[Sean_A]

JNC

One and done isn't a slam on all the courses.  I would definitely recommend playing Carnasty and Troon assuming you have the bucks.  All Open courses are good and it may just be a little odd thing or two which catches your fancy. 

Tain has some really good holes, but I am not convinced they make up for the badun's or that one should foresake another course for a second go at Tain. 

Tom D

I don't know, you didn't say much about Gullane 2 and gave it a 4 - thats about right no?  I prefer #3 because I generally like how the hill is dealt with except for the glaring exception of #15(?) which seems to go downhill as much as it long - really one of the dopiest holes I have seen.  At least it was downhill dopey.

Carl

One and done is a bit harsh for Muirfield.  How bout two and out?  What about the same for Turnberry and Musselburgh?   

Ben

You are a freak forever conflicted by your architectural sensibilities - tee hee.  Now stick to Scotland.   

Pietro

In my experience, across the board architecture is just not as good in Scotland as in England (I will probably get my knuckles wrapped for that one - damn nuns).  I can understand why that is the case for inland courses, but I am not quite sure why that is for links.  Some of it is probably down to expectations of Scotland as the Home of Golf.  Also, I think the English clubs MAY have been more aggressive in improving the courses.

Ciao

[Jon Wiggett]

Sean,

I am not sure what you intend with this post as you seem to alter the way you judge courses from case to case.

One And Done Courses (unless there are special circumstances)?  We hear so much about the awesome depth of Scottish golf, but is some of this depth just mediocre golf in a good location?  Of golf that is so expensive that all we want to afford is one look?  Or not bad courses, but indeed in an area of riches.  Though I would certainly recommend folks see some of these courses if nearby, none really did it for me.  

Tain - boring
For me from tee to green I have not seen a better course than Tain. It amazes me that the club has not spent some money in order to improve their set of bland greens. Where they to do this then it would be a better course than Brora and close to RD standard. Is it worth a long drive to play it? No
The Glen - if this was just the lower part then the course would be much better
What a missed opportunity from a GCA point of view
Troon - too expensive, treated poorly
I agree
Shiskine - beautiful spot with a few good holes, but not worth the journey unless you plan to be on Arran
Maybe, though if you can work it into a trip or happen to be on Arran then well worth a visit
Carnoustie - too tough and expensive
I agree. Indeed I found the course a better play in the early 80's despite its poor condition
Gullane 2 & 3 - though I could see myself changing my mind on these two, their proximity to other very fine courses seals their doom for now
I can not follow your logic on this. Surely you should judge a course on its own merits. Either it is worth playing multiple time or not. Also, to follow your argument then a poor course in an area that has no other courses is better for it.
Murcar - too many blah holes, but I haven't seen the changes
Glasgow Gailes - boring
Leven - not bad, but too many other courses nearby I would rather play given how rarely I make it up there
Crail - see above
Golspie - see above
Sean,  to suggest the above 3 courses are not worth a second visit because you do not have the time is odd. I would have thought that they would be worth a second play if you had the time
Troon Portland - boring
Stonehaven - beautiful, but lacking a bit in substance

Ciao
  

I would recommend that you come up the the north of Scotland  and play some more golf up here. One of your courses, Golspie has improved a lot in the last few years and is well worth multiple plays. On a value for money scale I would say it is as good as Brora and better than RD (unless you know a RD member).

Jon

[JNC Lyon]

Jeff and Ben,

I paid 80 pounds to play Sandwich on a beautiful March day with maybe five or six groups on the course.  I think it would be hard to get better value for a Open Rota course than that.  I am guessing Carnoustie is a good golf course, and I probably would play it for good value.  However, when there are plenty of courses around that area that cost a lot less and are great fun, then I probably would not play Carnoustie if in the area. I really have no desire to play Troon, especially with the rumors I've heard about the high prices, poor service, and less than spectacular golf course.  Furthermore, there are a ton of golf courses around Troon that look great, and I don't think I would sacrifice a round at Prestwick to play there.

Sean,

Point well taken.  I would play Dornoch or Brora over Tain any day.  However, I think it is tough to dismiss Tain as "boring" when it has several neat holes.  It's worth playing if you are in the region, even if you only play it once.

[Sean_A]

Jon

Hmmm, Golspie better value (or better) than Brora is a muy largo statement.  I'm not buying it, but thats only one man's opinion.  Brora is about as much bang for buck you can get in Scotland.

Ciao    

[Jon Wiggett]

Jon

Hmmm, Golspie better value (or better) than Brora is a muy largo statement.  I'm not buying it, but thats only one man's opinion.  Brora is about as much bang for buck you can get in Scotland.

Ciao    

Sean,

please re-read what I said which is not what you have misquoted above,


Caio

[Mark Pearce]

Jon,

I think you meant me, rather than Jeff.

Until the end of March a single round on the Championship course at Carnoustie would cost £65.  What other courses in the area offer such clearly better value that you would pass up the chance to play an Open rota course and one that many consider to be one of the best in the country?  Why are you so convinced by a few (albeit knowledgeable) posters on here that you would not want to find out for yourself?  I have always thought of you as an independent thinker, this position doesn't seem to fit.

[Niall C]

Jeff and Ben,

I paid 80 pounds to play Sandwich on a beautiful March day with maybe five or six groups on the course.  I think it would be hard to get better value for a Open Rota course than that.  I am guessing Carnoustie is a good golf course, and I probably would play it for good value.  However, when there are plenty of courses around that area that cost a lot less and are great fun, then I probably would not play Carnoustie if in the area. I really have no desire to play Troon, especially with the rumors I've heard about the high prices, poor service, and less than spectacular golf course.  Furthermore, there are a ton of golf courses around Troon that look great, and I don't think I would sacrifice a round at Prestwick to play there.

Jon

Mark beat me to it. Judge for yourself. One thing I would say if you are looking for spectacular and pretty scenery as your post suggests then you may be disappointed. If your looking for great golf both measure up in my humble opinion.

Niall

[Carl Johnson]

. . . Carl

One and done is a bit harsh for Muirfield.  How bout two and out?  What about the same for Turnberry and Musselburgh?   

I would try Muirfield again if someone else would pay for it, that's for sure.  Turnberry I have just played once, and based on that experience would go back again and again.  Maybe a second play would change my mind, however.  Never played Musselburgh.

[Jon Wiggett]

Mark,

I do not think I am the Jon you mean I would say that at £65 Carnoustie is good value and in march it would probably be possible to play 18 in 3 hours rather than 6. In summer however the GF price is OTT and make the course not worth playing.

Jon

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