Phil Young has some questions on Robt. White.....

[TEPaul]

......and some of the other very early immigrant pros to America; what were their differences (or White's) and what does it mean?

Here's one of his statements and questions as framed in one of his posts on the Willie Campbell & Myopia thread that has now hit 23 pages during three separate timespans over about seventeen months (that's a fact but I'm not sure if it should be a warning too).




Phil Young said:
"Actually, I think there is a rather fascinating picture being painted about Robert White that hasn't been touched on and deserves its own thread later. That is, exactly WHEN did he begin doing architectural work? It seems that it was the common practice for nearly all Scottish professionals who emigrated to the US to get into the design business very quickly, yet Myopia didn't hire him to design their course or participate in the laying out of it or adding any features during his 2+ years there. That seems to be the exception to the "Scottish pro in America designs courses" rule that was so prevalent at that time. What held him back? Is it possible that he was hired by Myopia with the intent that he would take part in the laying out of the course and then when Campbell arrived on the scene, more established and a much bigger name, that they kept him on and used Campbell for what he was going to do?

Those are reasonable questions, all that come about because of the dynamics of the time period and the evolution of the game in America and how professionals were viewed and courses designed. I think what happened at Myopia is a great case study for all of this and when all is fleshed out will be of great help in understanding what might have happened elsewhere."


What do you think?

[TEPaul]

Philip:

This is a really good subject you broached! I think it is one of the potentially best subjects in the entire panoply of American architecture, certainly in the beginning of it some 100-120 years ago.

But I feel it is and probably will be a controversial one on here, as there are some of us on here who seem to have massively different opinions about it historically and across the spectrum of what should be discussed; but that's OK----as Macdonald and Mackenzie actually wrote---there is no better ideal in golf course architecture than to inspire and promote controversy in it, within it, around it, whatever. They even addressed the flip side of that thought and philosophy by saying that anything that produces agreement or a consensus of opinon on golf architecture has got to be bland or not particularly interesting!  

[RSLivingston_III]

I can tell you he came over from St. Andrews and he was either a school teacher or THE Robert White that was the first to leave blacksmithing to become the first full time cleek and iron maker. The definitive story needs to be researched.

[RSLivingston_III]

dbl post

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
Here is a link to a previous thread on White. In answer to Phil's question the earliest design activity I have seen for White is 1895. According to the 1900 Golf Course guide White was involved in the layout of Cincinnati CC with the golf committee in 1895. Also according to the 1900 guide he designed something called the Avondale Athletic Club course in 1897, also in Cinti.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35863.0/

[TEPaul]

Thank you very much for that Tom. Is there anyway we could encourage you to make that your last post on this thread?

[RSLivingston_III]

I believe I got this from a 1896 mag. He advertised a lot during the early 1890s.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom P,

Please take this in the spirit it is being stated, not as a put down, but rather as one who understands your frustration with Tom Macwood. So, even though I raised this point and am deeply interested in what can be learned from a proper discussion of it, I will NOT participate if, as you put it in response to Tom's post, "Is there any way we could encourage you to make that your last post on this thread?"

First of all we have enough contentious threads without starting another one immediately with a comment such as that. Secondly, since you started this thread based upon something that I posted on the Myopia thread, let's look at another similar post from it. In response to Tom Macwood's posting of that same information I wrote:

      Thanks for the info on White. I, too, think the 1895 date is significant since, if we are to believe the newspaper accounts, and in this case I do, White was at Myopia for a good part of 1896. Those at Myopia must have known that he was working elsewhere and so questions come to mind such as:
1- Having a Scottish professional on staff who was known to design golf courses in the U.S., why wouldn't they involve him in their own course work?
2- While it seems apparent that his doing this work at & for another club to be the reason that he left Myopia, was it a voluntary leaving or was he let go for doing it?
3- How does the Macgregor Company play into all of this as he was one of the founders?
4- Why didn't White do more architectural work between then and the mid-teens that we know about? He seems to have been almost reluctant, if that is the right way to put it, to go all out in the four areas in which he was involved in the golf business hoping one would take off. These four areas are as golf professional, architect and designer, greenkeeper and businessman (Macgregor). It seems that he spent many years having limited success during a time when Scottish Professionals in America were viewed as unquestioned experts and were given preference in the areas of design and professional positions.
      I know this is off-topic, but I think that it would serve for a very good discussion topic, and I'm certain you won't believe this, but I think you should consider starting one and oversee it as it were...

Frankly speaking, I don’t know of anyone at this point who knows more about Robert White’s career than Tom Macwood. I might disagree with him on some aspects of the importance that he sees in what White did at certain times, but those are interpretational disagreements.

I think all of us can learn some things about White from Tom M. on this thread, and he just might learn a thing or two from some others as well. But neither will happen with the attitude that you displayed in that comment. It was uncalled for and you should apologize for saying it or you should not take part in this thread as I think it deserves to be one without contention.

Tom Macwood, I’m asking you to please ignore Tom Paul’s comments and participate in this.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

No problem at all. I will just watch you discuss this with the likes of Tom MacWood. Good luck on that. I don't really need to participate in this subject even though I did research it and wrote an article on a selection of it (that included Leeds and Myopia) for the 2009 Walker Cup program at Merion so I do know something about the subject even if Tom MacWood constantly denies that; so I doubt you two need me on this.

Good luck to you Phil, it's a very interesting and important subject in the evolution of American architecture, in my opinion, as I mentioned above. However, to do the subject justice I believe one does need a certain working knowledge of the architectural history of Myopia for the basic reason it very well may've been the first really good architecture in America. Clearly Tom MacWood does not have a very good working knowledge of the history of Myopia's architecture (to attribute the golf course to Willie Campbell, as he has done constantly on here, is historically inaccurate and just about completely ridiculous. It is perhaps not quite but almost as ridiculous as his attributing Merion East to HH Barker) but I do not know whether or not you do, Philip.

Carry on.

[Niall C]

I believe I got this from a 1896 mag. He advertised a lot during the early 1890s.

1896 ? If so, would that not pre-date any other mention of the profession of Golf Course Architect ?

Niall

[Phil_the_Author]

Ralph and Niall,

That advertisement must be from much later on as Wykagl wasn't formed as a club until 1898. The 1931 American Golf Course Guide lists the Ocean-Forest Country Club as being established in 1927.

I think the key is the address lists his office in Mount Vernon, N.Y. In 1896 he was at Myopia and then out in Cincinnatti and wouldn't have had an office in Mount Vernon.

[Andy Hughes]

Philip, I think that is exactly right.  Ocean-Forest Country Club (what would become Pine Lakes) dates to the mid-1920s.