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golfarc

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2002, 10:30:45 AM »

I have to agree with Brian and Steve with regards to the influence this DG has on the business and reality of golf architecture.  It has absolutely no influence.  And, anyone who thinks it does is sadly mistaken.  

It is however, a good site with many interesting topics.  Keep up the spirited debate, just don't think anyone, or any club, or any architect for that matter is lisenting.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2002, 10:40:38 AM »
golfarc,

You're pretty funny.   ;D

Then why should anyone at the USGA, or clubs, or architects care what we say??

If a critical comment is made on GCA and no one is listening, how come it made noise?  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

golfarc

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2002, 10:51:44 AM »

Mike,

Maybe I should clarify.  No one making decisions about the future of courses is listening.  They may be aware of the site, but it is not having an influence on the decisions made to renovate or restore.    

I would venture to say that 90% of the "noise" as you call it, is made by the members of GCA.  This is not meant to insult anyone, just the facts.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2002, 11:04:57 AM »
golfarc,

I don't believe that you can say for certain that no one is listening any more than I can certifiably declare that someone is.  

I guess it depends on your definition of "listening".  If you mean being persuaded and ultimately agreeing with some of us, then perhaps you're correct, because it certainly didn't stop the two projects most commonly cited here from proceeding to their eventual result.

However, if you mean "reading", then I would beg to differ.  Without naming names, I can tell you from personal experience that GCA is regularly read in some of the most unlikely places you can imagine.

The history of the world has been largely determined by small groups of committed individuals who believed in a cause whose time was right.  At the start of the American Revolution, less than 10% of the colonists were in favor of pissing off the British.  

The truth is the truth is the truth.  Should we speak less of it?  

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2002, 11:18:40 AM »
Well, lots of things to chime in on here.....

Geoff,

I wasn't specific enough in putting words in your mouth, but I meant my comments to apply only to you participating at Rivera.  I got the sense that you would love to be involved in pure restoration projects, but only with full control.  Call it politics or compromise, but I felt from your comments that you are too idealistic to want to participate in the actual renovation of Rivera already going in a different direction than you want.

It is a fact that courses change over time, and club needs change over time, both of which make accurate restoring very difficult to quantify, and certainly subject to intelligent discussion.  In my view, there will always be difficult decisions and compromise,in the process, without a definitive answer as to "What is right". As we have discussed here before, in the real world there are many competing objectives that force compromise on almost every project. The subset of architects, members and owners that would join you in preserving many courses exactly like they werein the 1930's, even if they don't fit current objectives, is (like it or not) very small.

I can agree with your stance in "truth in labeling" concept.  I would like to see a small number of signifcant courses by classic architects preserved just as was.  How would those courses or what year they would be preserved be chosen or defined, I haven't a clue.  But, like you and others, it would be great to play an Oakmont, Riv. or whatever as it was for historical study and pure pleasure.

For clubs not doing that, architects and the USGA should proabably say "We are looking to the future and not the past in these renovations. We are trying to be sympathetic to the original, but make no guarantees" as we must insure future viability of the facility for its intended uses (including, as applicable, the Owners desire to host a tournament.")  On the other hand, who but lawyers would want more disclaimer statements (on scorecards in this case) for the obvious?

The term they use when they convert a train station to a museum or restaurant  is "adaptive reuse".  It means they are trying to save the exterior of the structure while making it economically viable with a different use.  It doesn't seem quite as applicable to golf, but if you figure that the game has changed so dramatically as to be unrecognizable to Hogan, perhaps not.

As an architect, I can  tell you that it is hard to defend your designs against an infinite universe of options of "What if". In essence, the critic throws out the "it didn't have to be that way" making the architect prove a negative, which is always impossible.  I can also say truthfully, it's always easier to  criticise work after its done than it is to turn out a final product.

You obviously know more about 7 and 8 than I from my few times playing the course and "photograph opinions".  I wasn't critising no. 8 at all, nor do I think there is a secret back foor.  It's just that pros figure this stuff out fast!  I did want to ask if the green surface itself was redone?  I recall it being high on the right front, which might make an approach from the right a bit difficult to hold?  Can you enlighten me as to your opinion as to why it was obvious to many it wouldn't work well?

Admittedly, I was speculating on how Mel Brooks would like to look down on a sandy waste area!  The story of Opryland is true enough though.  Specifically, do you think the USGA or PGA tour would play an scrubby sand hazard between fairways, given the pros propensity for "fairness?"  And if not, what is the viable alternative, if not rough?

Tom MacWood -

Remodelling University focuses on the process of creating and selling a master plan and renovation program.  It certainly stresses full disclosure and continual communication as to objectives.  As part of that, determining your need, including whether to restore, renovate sympathetically, or blow it out and start over is covered in general.  Each club must make up its own mind of course, and at San Antonio, we had two club managers who were facing those types of decisions.

As to the general tone of these threads, I felt the invectives going back and forth regarding Riviera really started with the titles of some of the original threads, notably "The outrage at Riviera", which seemed to set an "anything goes" tone.  Without that, perhaps the discussions could have focused on more specific topics, as I personally prefer.

And does this site change modern architecture?  I know that I have tried a few things I may not have otherwise tried, if not inspired by the various sections of this site (including old course photos)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mashie1

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2002, 11:45:49 AM »
The fact that this site is mostly for enthusiasts and is not golf business oriented, its impact on future projects will be minimal.  I'm sure the discussion is a sort of validation for some, but those that disagree with its content will most likely ignore it.  This site should be fun and not constant gnashing of teeth - it is only a game after all...

The answer  is simple - follow the money...Even "venerable" Olympia Fields is hosting the Open trying to increase its membership and make a little $$.


Mashie8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Steve Okula

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2002, 11:49:47 AM »
Tim Weiman,

You asked - "If you believe GCA has no effect on anyone in the golf industry, why did you bother to post?  Why are you trying to influence a group you say has no influence?  Who do you think is suffering from delusions?  Who do you think exaggerates GCA's limited influence?"

I post the same reason as I read others' here, for the fun of it, and because it gives me some information on courses I would otherwise know nothing about.

I'm not trying to influence anybody, but just give my own opinion, which is what the DG is about, I think.

I think that anyone who believes that decisions in the real world are being taken based on views expressed here are deluding themselves.

In this case, JakaB was wildly exagerrating the influence of the DG on golf course architecture, in my opinion, that is.

I respect and admire the classic courses. I don't know Riviera or Merion, unfortunately, which is why I enjoy reading about them here. I have seen a few courses in my 30 years as a greenkeeper, and, as a practicing golf course superintendent, I come into contact with people in the industry from around the world on a daily basis. This includes many golfers, supers, salesmen, developers, owners, pros, and architects - thousands of people. Never, have I heard any of them even so much as mention this site.  (With the sole exception of the time Pete Galea and I hooked up on Bourbon Street, but then we met in this DG.) The times I tried to get other supers to check out the site I found no interest on their part.  

Based then, on my own (admittedly incidental) experience, I conclude that the DG does not have a significant influence on GCA today.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2002, 11:52:57 AM »
golfarc,
Never underestimate who's looking in and how they react to what is said here. One of these days I'll share a lovely outburst from a prominent figure in golf. It may change your mind about the influence discussions here have with certain folks.

Jeff,
Thanks for you comments, I think we probably agree more than we realize, it's the areas in which compromise occur that I think we are not clear on. I accept that many courses can never go back in time, including Riviera. And I accept that compromises would have to be made under the umbrella of "restoration" (I've said so for years about #7, #8 and #13...I just don't know if people have realized what a tricky thing it would be to restore such holes, and now we've seen why). So I think I'm as realistic as anyone regarding what can or can't be done, and I am tending to lean on the side of doing nothing over full restoration these days. I just would never paint such compromises as restoration of the architects vision if in fact they were compromised to appease people who haven't got a clue what the architect was doing, which is what has been done here. Only in this instance, the changes (new fairway bunker on 8, crowned green on 8, the "restored" peninsula on 13, the benign barranca, the whales tails) were things that never existed, and yet they are painted as originals. That's not a particularly honest way of doing business and it sets a dreadful example.

As to why it was clear why #8 wouldn't work well, and 7 for that matter, it's pretty simple. It came down to the parties involved not understanding the concept in the first place and the focus on lengthening over strategy. The execution of the work, particularly the length and location of tee, shaping of the #8 fairway (bowled???), the enlarged green on 8 and most of all, the lack of a hazard within the hazard, undermined the chance for the strategy to work.

I do think the look of the hazard would be easy to sell if approached intelligently. The neighbors are not of concern to the aesthetics of the golf course. And the goal of the USGA is to make the course more difficult right, so a sandy unpredictable area would certainly be tougher than 2 inch rough? And how can the USGA not agree, they want to put a road in the barranca!? That is worse than sand!

If carried out attractively, a sandy barranca would add some color and texture to Riviera that is lacking. But this would require a wholesale change in the look of many areas of the course (under the trees, barranca throughout) that might be tough for those involved to embrace, understand or visualize, because they don't see how much the "cleaning up" of areas on 7, 8, 12, and 13 makes things easier for golfers, and less interesting or attractive. Plus, after seeing the landscaping effort on #5, it's a good thing they did not try to create a scruffy, sandy area with the occasional plantings, it would have looked worse than the sod farm look to the side of 8 and 13 they have now.
Geoff

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

golfarc

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2002, 12:43:28 PM »

Geoff,

Maybe one day I'll share a thing or two with you and Mike, notably the difference between "listening" and "reading".

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2002, 12:58:39 PM »
Golfarc --

How about sharing something a little simpler, in the meantime?

Like, just for example, your name?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Richard_Goodale

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2002, 01:01:50 PM »
Mike C

I said in my 1st post that I didn't have any answers, but I will pass on a thought that occurred to me in reading the subsequent posts.  I have been taught, and have taught to others, the truism that in any selling situation it is critical to find out who makes the ultimate buying decision, and make sure that you convince that person, directly or indirectly, that your product/service is the right one to buy.

It seems to me that the ultimate "buyer" in terms of golf course resoration/renovation/remodelling, etc., for the classes of courses we are interested in, is the USGA.   If the guys and gals at Far Hills tell Watanabe, or the City of San Diego, or the membership at Merion or Olympia Fields or Oakmont(?) to jump, the answer seems to be "how high?" rather than "why?"--for a variety of reasons, many of which are valid from the point of view of these secondary decision makers, as has been pointed out above.

IMHO, if you don't change the nature of that "jump" command to something more to our liking, even the Emperor himself standing Tienamen-Square-Like in front of the D-9's is not going to halt what the USGA apparently firmly believes to be "progress."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2002, 01:03:55 PM »
Rich --

Bravo!

Now, how do we influence the USGA?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2002, 01:33:42 PM »
I think the only way you are going to influence the USGA is by the olf fashioned way and that is writing to them.

Pen and paper have more effect than the internet or e-mails.  There is still nothing better than a letter to make sure someone in charge reads it.

If people like Tommy want to really change the attitudes of the USGA then you have to write to them.

Geoff,

Do you see a problem now that you are an architect as well as journalist?  In that the architects are not going to join up with you or ask that much advice because you are a competing architect?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Richard_Goodale

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2002, 01:36:39 PM »
Tough question, Dan

I've been a USGA "Associate" for over 15 years and I can't ever remember being given the chance to vote on any issue, including the nomination or election of the Officers of the organization.  I also know that the USGA never had the courtesy to reply to the 2-3 letters I have politely sent them regarding rules issues in the past.  I understand that you have had a similar experience.  I also know from posts on this site that one of our "Doyens" spent many fruitless years trying to get them to consider a very logical and interesting change to the Rules regarding order of play.

To me, as a mere associate, the USGA has even less touch with it's membership than did the Politburo of the good old USSR.  At least the Politburo pretended to ask for and consider advice from local cells of the Communist Party.  How the USGA makes decisions, in terms of rules or Championship venues or its own "leadership" is as much a "mystery, wrapped in a riddle, inside an enigma" as anything Uncle Joe Stalin could have have ever imagined.

My answer to your question would generally be "engage them in a dialogue."  GCA collectively has the intelligence and the passion and the knowledge to do so, and to do so effectively.  There are people of some influence and some standing who participate on this site, directly or lurkingly.  The real quesiton is, would Far Hills listen?  I'm not sanguine about that at all......

...all IMHO, of course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2002, 04:00:47 PM »
My answer is NO! Golf Club Atlas is inspiring modern architecture and restoration.

You may not want to listen to me banter and rave, but ultimately I think the change is in the air. No where have I ever felt so listened and dispised at the same time!:) After all, how many professionals do you know that wil hang around a website to here us "drivel."

Yes, Golf Architects, Sancho JakaB and I know your out there!

Barney, come with me. Come be my Sancho Panza as I, Don Quixote attack these architcture windmills of despair. Yes, you can be Sancho JakaB or whatever you want to call yourself today!
 
It does not matter, all's we have is each other.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2002, 05:09:19 PM »
Steve Okula:

I think it is way too early to conclude what GCA's long term influence on the golf industry may become.  At the moment it is quite small.  How that might change remains to be seen.

FYI, my limited contacts in the golf industry do take note of views offered here and often seem quite sensitive when the views expressed are not favorable.

Based on purely anecdotal evidence, I think you may be underestimating the number of people who listen in at GCA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Gary Smith (Guest)

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2002, 06:49:02 PM »
FWIW, I've written the USGA several times in the past 10 years, and have always gotten a prompt, detailed and informative response to my letter from Fay or a staff person he referred it to. (and I'm not even an associate)



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2002, 06:49:59 PM »
Cool.  (800+ hits in one day.)   Thousands of years of human endeavor and we end up debating the importance of GCA and the effect we have on golf architecture and it's future.  Too cool.   Let's see.  Hmmmmmmm.  I'm not playing with 14 clubs (or a full deck) and I learned a bunch of stufff and JakalarB is funny sometimes if he doesn't take himself seriously and damb! if my limbic region isn't torqued.  

   I think (there's a stretch), that GCA is a web site where people of different and varied histories and experiences and perspectives can share what is great about golf and its playing grounds and, what I find most important, that it is a great gathering place, both here and the gowf course.  

  Carry on....  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Richard_Goodale

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2002, 06:51:23 PM »
Great to hear that, Gary.  Maybe I've just been unlucky.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2002, 06:52:49 PM »
Tommy Quixote and Sancho JakaB....

Now, there's a tag-team to be reckoned with!  The poetry alone will be worth it.

Although, you guys better get yourselves some sturdy burros! ;)  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2002, 07:07:29 PM »
"To dream the impossible dream........."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2002, 07:25:16 AM »
"... to reach the unreachable Far (Hills)!"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

TEPaul

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2002, 07:41:28 AM »
Golfarc;

Glad you know what everyone in the world of golf architecture is thinking--that's impressive--particularly with   the fact that some of them disagree with you.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

golfarc

Re: Is GolfClubAtlas Imploding Modern Architecture
« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2002, 10:40:37 AM »

TEPaul,

Knowing is always better than speculation, conjecture, inuendo, misperception.  I am sure you will agree.  It is fine to disagree, if one knows of what they speak.  Out here.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
At least we're heading in the right direction
« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2002, 12:27:49 PM »
In terms of GCA.com's influence, it is minimal as we are less than a three year old site.

However, some interesting facts show that we are trending in the right direction in terms of exposure and who we are reaching:

1. February 14th was a record in terms of page views with 15,478  :o for the day.

2. January, 2002 was a record for page views with 297,851 for the month (we are on pace to blow past that in February but it being a short month will doom a new page view record).

3. Sequentially, we have grown virtually every month since inception except for September 2001 when the DG was intentionally shut down on two occasions.

4. The site has been positively profiled in at least five different publications and is listed highly in several of the internet's largest search engines.

5. Most importantly, I have received approximately 25 emails from board members of recognizable name clubs in the U.S. Many of the messages say that they are printing this or that and taking it into a meeting. Thus decision makers are IN FACT being reached.

Indications are that we are heading in the right direction. The biggest achilles heels of the site is that the discussion group tolerates anonymous posts/posters, many of which add little and undermine the credibility of the site. At some point, such posts/posters will be no longer be accepted.

Free access to a web site that contains a large volume of quality information on one specific subject matter should be of value to the market place in general, be it on wines, cars, or....golf course architecture. Hopefully, we will continue to evolve into being an educational reference point while maintaining the spirit of being a club that is fun to hang out in.

Cheers,

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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