Ogilvy Clayton redesign of Bonnie Doon GC: NEW CONSTRUCTION VIDEO

[Ben Stephens]

Scott,

Here is a visual of the proposed 18th fairway showing what the new bunkers are like - without the 17th green, and forward tees. I have removed the shadows in the pic.

Cheers
Ben

Ben, from a strategic perspective, wouldn't you want the closer and more challenging bunkers on the right side since that looks like the preferred side for the approach with the greenside bunker on the left?

Now it looks you could simply lay up in front of the right side bunker for the best way home.

I'm sure this was just a quick Photoshop job but that occurred to me straight off.

Bill - you hit all the right spots to what I was thinking about! Until I had a closer look to the sand capping plan which means the photoshop image will have to be further modified  

Scott - does the existing fairway slope from left to right? also is the shape of the fairway going to change based on the sand capping plans if so it will create a 2 level fairway by the right hand side bunker - if the ball goes left then it will be a blind second shot. The drive toward the right hand bunker will be tighter to get on the 'upper' level meaning an easier line of approach to the green is this correct?

The Sand capping maps are as follows - the dark blue is -3m!





Cheers
Ben

[Bill_McBride]

Scott,

Here is a visual of the proposed 18th fairway showing what the new bunkers are like - without the 17th green, and forward tees. I have removed the shadows in the pic.

Cheers
Ben

Ben, from a strategic perspective, wouldn't you want the closer and more challenging bunkers on the right side since that looks like the preferred side for the approach with the greenside bunker on the left?

Now it looks you could simply lay up in front of the right side bunker for the best way home.

I'm sure this was just a quick Photoshop job but that occurred to me straight off.

Bill - you hit all the right spots to what I was thinking about! Until I had a closer look to the sand capping plan which means the photoshop image will have to be further modified  

Ben, now I see from the drawings by Ogilvy Clayton that they put the bunkers where you showed them on your Photoshop job!  I still think our analysis is correct!   

[Scott Warren]

Ben,

The current fairway is essentially level L-to-R, perhaps tilting a rouch L-to-R, with most of the moment occuring perpendicular to the line of play. I'm not sure exactly what OC has planned for the shaping post-sand mining.

It appears in your photoshopping above that the bunkers on both sides are too close to the tee.

One thing that loooks great to me about the new 9th hole shown above is the combination of sand mining to the right and the natural sandy hollow on the left will create a bunkerless green in the spirit of the 1st at Pine Valley and 4th at Silloth-on-Solway. Seems to me a pretty great concept for a short par five.

[Ben Stephens]

Scott,

Here is a visual of the proposed 18th fairway showing what the new bunkers are like - without the 17th green, and forward tees. I have removed the shadows in the pic.

Cheers
Ben

Ben, from a strategic perspective, wouldn't you want the closer and more challenging bunkers on the right side since that looks like the preferred side for the approach with the greenside bunker on the left?

Now it looks you could simply lay up in front of the right side bunker for the best way home.

I'm sure this was just a quick Photoshop job but that occurred to me straight off.

Bill - you hit all the right spots to what I was thinking about! Until I had a closer look to the sand capping plan which means the photoshop image will have to be further modified  

Ben, now I see from the drawings by Ogilvy Clayton that they put the bunkers where you showed them on your Photoshop job!  I still think our analysis is correct!   

Bill

If it was me initially I would put the bunkers in different places - maybe a small one in the middle to give options off the tee and more 'trouble' on the right, which dictates a braver tee shot to get the easier approach shot to the green, than the left which I would have as the easier tee shot option  but a more diffcult shot to the green - we will need to have Mike Clayton's input for his reasons of the positions of the proposed bunkers.

Ben

[Ben Stephens]

Ben,

The current fairway is essentially level L-to-R, perhaps tilting a rouch L-to-R, with most of the moment occuring perpendicular to the line of play. I'm not sure exactly what OC has planned for the shaping post-sand mining.

It appears in your photoshopping above that the bunkers on both sides are too close to the tee.

One thing that loooks great to me about the new 9th hole shown above is the combination of sand mining to the right and the natural sandy hollow on the left will create a bunkerless green in the spirit of the 1st at Pine Valley and 4th at Silloth-on-Solway. Seems to me a pretty great concept for a short par five.

Scott,

I have tried to fit the bunkers in based on the aerial plan/image and the photos that you have. I can always move them thanks to Photoshop if you can indicate the location where they will be!

Bill and I are trying to work out why the proposed fairway bunkers are where they are. I am a great believer that the final drive is challenging but I dont see it here on this plan hence the Photoshop image to prove it.

Cheers
Ben

[Scott Warren]

Ben,

To be fair, you've not seen the site, so perhaps suggesting better placement for the bunkering is a touch optimistic.

Bill and Ben (but not THAT Bill and Ben ),

Knowing the hole, basically what you have is a 410m (450y) par four that even for me into a bit of wind is driver + four wood or driver + hybrid. If I absolutely rip one with a little bit of wind assisting, I have a six iron in.

So effectively as I see it the proposed bunkering pattern takes into account that this hole will play as both a two-shotter and a three-shotter for different golfers on the same day, and for the same golfer on different days.

Played as a three shotter, when the golfer might only hit their drive 180m-200m, the short left-hand bunkers are in the range where you want to be, leaving a second to your preferred distance short right of the green.

Played as a two shotter for the golfer capable of hitting a longer drive, the bunker down the right is about 260m from the tee, guarding the ideal approach angle into the green.

For the average handicap amateur, both bunker locations guard what will be an ideal drive location on different days. It's quite a windy place for an inland course, so the placement of drives can vary greatly (as I said, I have had both 4 wood and 6i into that hole after flushed drives).

[Ben Stephens]

Ben,

To be fair, you've not seen the site, so perhaps suggesting better placement for the bunkering is a touch optimistic.

Thats very true I was intending to say that I have not been on site so my argument would be in some ways against me - will use my words more carefully next time as the Aussie Clark Kent is using his xray eyes on GCA!.

'Flob a dub dub'

[Ben Stephens]

Bill and Ben (but not THAT Bill and Ben ),

Knowing the hole, basically what you have is a 410m (450y) par four that even for me into a bit of wind is driver + four wood or driver + hybrid. If I absolutely rip one with a little bit of wind assisting, I have a six iron in.

So effectively as I see it the proposed bunkering pattern takes into account that this hole will play as both a two-shotter and a three-shotter for different golfers on the same day, and for the same golfer on different days.

Played as a three shotter, when the golfer might only hit their drive 180m-200m, the short left-hand bunkers are in the range where you want to be, leaving a second to your preferred distance short right of the green.

Played as a two shotter for the golfer capable of hitting a longer drive, the bunker down the right is about 260m from the tee, guarding the ideal approach angle into the green.

For the average handicap amateur, both bunker locations guard what will be an ideal drive location on different days. It's quite a windy place for an inland course, so the placement of drives can vary greatly (as I said, I have had both 4 wood and 6i into that hole after flushed drives).

Scott

Thanks for your input re: contours and wind direction. Also you havent taken into account the diagional ridge that Clayts is proposing based on the sand capping diagram - this hole will definitely favour the longer hitters on a 2 shot strategy - It seems harder on the short hitter on a 2/3 shot strategy as the ridge will make the balls that have been hit right of the centreline further right if they are hit short of the green.

I can understand from your comments above that the bunkers take into account the wind direction the ones on the left are in play in a headwind and the one on the right is in play on a headwind but I still feel it would be a better/fairer all round hole if there was more hazards on the right side of the fairway and fewer hazards on the left and the ridge to go down the left of the green rather than the right so that the bail out area is easier on the average golfer - is that the majority of your members?.

Cheers
Ben

[Ben Stephens]

For everyone's information Bill and Ben the flowerpot men are cartoon TV characters in the UK and they are accompanied by a talking Weed (depicted as a sunflower)

[Scott Warren]

Ben,

Firstly I have no idea what flob a dub dub means. EDIT - I just saw the above post. The Bill and Ben I was referring to when I said "not that Bill and Ben" was Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw, not your beloved flowerpot men

As I see it, the long driver will have to be precise as he nears the RHS bunker or the ball will feed into the central depression, making the approach uncomfortable.

Likewise, the shaping as it is shown on the map above seems that it would allow balls played to the lay-up zone to gather in a pretty appealing place for that short third to the green.

From short of the LHS bunkers to the lay-up zone, the shot as it is displayed above is essentially straight up a valley to a gathering area that offers an attractive angle, so no, I don't see it as being unfairly difficult for lesser golfers.

[Ben Stephens]

Ben,

Firstly I have no idea what flob a dub dub means. EDIT - I just saw the above post. The Bill and Ben I was referring to when I said "not that Bill and Ben" was Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw, not your beloved flowerpot men

As I see it, the long driver will have to be precise as he nears the RHS bunker or the ball will feed into the central depression, making the approach uncomfortable.

Likewise, the shaping as it is shown on the map above seems that it would allow balls played to the lay-up zone to gather in a pretty appealing place for that short third to the green.

From short of the LHS bunkers to the lay-up zone, the shot as it is displayed above is essentially straight up a valley to a gathering area that offers an attractive angle, so no, I don't see it as being unfairly difficult for lesser golfers.

Scott

I would have thought you would have noticed Bill and Ben during your time in England and all they say is 'Flob a dub dub' they are more famous than C+C!!  I am sure Chappers and Boony will testify!

Re: the depressions and run off areas - I can see what you mean that the third shot being easier from the depression but I can see the frustration on many average players when they see what is deemed a good shot to them - a 'run in shot' bounce right away from the green. It is a good subtle hole with quite effective 'hidden' hazards but not perfect to accomodate the weaker golfer

Cheers
Ben 

[Dieter Jones]

Scott, interesting read. I think I will print it off and drop it under the door at Royal Hobart to see if we can stimulate some debate about the need for change down here.

Looks like they have addressed most of the issues by reversing 4 (1 and 4 are like twins) and the same on a couple of holes on the back nine. 11 and 16 stink so getting rid of / modifying those is an instant improvement.

Boundary issue on 9/10 (now 10 / 11) seem to be under control but not sure about the old 11th (new 14th). As a memebr there Scott - you would know the land much better than me - Is the new tee location going to stop people plonking one into the K Mart Garage at Eastgardens or not?

If Mike Clayton is around perhaps he could comment on Eastlake and if he has ever had a look there. I was a memebr there a decade back and they were in the middle of making  a few new holes - all of which they cocked up. Last I heard is they have added a lovely ditch where the average drive lands across the fairway on the the "dirty half mile" par 5 (used to be 12th when I played there). SOme of the master plan changes looked good but it all really higed on getting permission to move the club house to the middle of the course around Gardners Road. THe club has no energy left to fight that battle after it took then 20 years to get permission to build the bridge across gardeners road

[Scott Warren]

Cheers Dieter,

Yeah, he similarity of 1/4 and 13/14/15 was the huge killer - along with the completely different character of 1-4, 6, 7 and 17 in one camp and 8-16 and 18 in he other camp.

Re: the current 11th, moving the tee forward will cause the landing area to be in a wider section, which allows the play to be shifted further right, and the green goes a touch right (and shorter) to get the approach shots away from the boundary as well. It could still be a bit tight. In an ideal world, the southern parcel would only house three holes across its width, rather than four.

Re: Eastlake, Ross Watson has built a couple of new holes at the far end of the course - a dogleg left par four and a long par three. From memory they've been there about 3-4 years. The par four I don't really think is much of a hole, but the three is a good one. Of course they're both completely out of character with the rest of the course, but given the MO as I was told it was for Watson to gradually do the whole course, I guess you can't blame him for that.

Eastlake has some great holes from about 12 onwards and I really like the par three 2nd that gets rotated in and out of play and the short par four after it with the skyline green. Also the par five on the front that plays down to Wentworth Ave. It would be fantastic to see that course get some attention from the right set of hands.

[Dieter Jones]

Scott, I read through the entire master plan tonight. What is the feeling amongst the membership re the proposed new structure - particularly the opening (ie 3 short 4's and 3 par 3's in the first 8 holes. The designers are obviously anticipating some "rumblings" and have specifically discussed examples of great courses around the world which don't follow "the formula".

Personally I couldn't care less if the holes flow nicely and are interesting to play but i'd be interested to know what the masses think.

One other one - who instigated the changes and what was the motivation? Was it a drive for more members and visitor dollars or was their somebody who rose to power with an interest in GCA in general.

[Mike_Clayton]

Dieter,

I have never played Eastlake - only look at it across the fence from The Lakes.
I look like being down in Hobart to play the Senior Tasmanian Open at the end of January - or maybe the first week in February.
I have not seen Royal Hobart since the mid- eighties. It would be interesting to look at it with different eyes - rather than as a player.
I remember a few really odd dogleg holes.

[James Bennett]

Dieter,

I have not seen Royal Hobart since the mid- eighties. It would be interesting to look at it with different eyes - rather than as a player.
I remember a few really odd dogleg holes.

Mike - it is a(nother) Vern Morcom layout......although you have effectively described it as such above.

[Scott Warren]

A little update.

The work begins on May 5.

Excitement is high at the club.

Mike Clayton, Ashley Mead and Mike Cocking deserve massive praise for the great job they did teaching their philosophy and the thinking behind the redesigned holes to the club management and directors.

There has been lots of talk about the redesign as the May 5 ground-breaking approaches and the ability of the club's leaders to articulate really well the major features and strengths of the new course has gone a long way towards the really positive attitude throughout the membership.

Can't wait to see the work unfold.

Any of the Aussies - or anyone visiting - who wants to check the place out before or during the work, drop me a line and I'd be happy to take you for a game or a look.

[Scott Warren]

Further to that, I just noticed the club has added some concepts and renderings of the proposed holes on its website:

http://bdgc.com.au/common/gallery/concepts/index.html

Gives a more detailed idea of what's proposed for a few holes.

[Anthony Butler]

Scott,

If the reality matches the plans, Bonnie Doon should go from nowhere to an AUS top 30 course when the work is finished. If O/C had the chance to redo St. Michaels, Sydney would have their own mini sandbelt with BD, St. Micks and NSWGC. If Randwick and the Coast threw in for a total redesign, then you'd be talking.

BTW, if anyone from the advertising world has been following the evolution of Ogilvy/Clayton, they would have already noticed the connection between Geoff and David Ogilvy through their royal Scottish bloodlines.

It appears their penchant for creating a logo out of their signature is also a common link.





Maybe what Geoff needs to do to reinforce his image as a thoughtful young man is get himself a pipe.

[Mike_Clayton]

Anthony,

We - well not us but someone we knew - came up with that logo and others for us to pick from.

I had never seen the Ogilvy Mather (as they are here) logo until about three weeks after we chose that one. I was driving into the city and went straight past their building - and couldn't believe it. it is the same red as well.

I think we will make something of Bonnie Doon - it's a terrific piece of land and the plan is good. I have only seen a few holes at St Michaels but it looked like it could likewise be really improved.
It is amazing that this strip of coast line from NSW around to Randwick and the Coast did not produce at least 3 top 15 courses in Australia

[Colin Macqueen]

Scott W,

"I like BonnieD, Brett. Sounds like a very cheerful Scottish rapper!"

Was that the chap who belted out "........Come follow the bonnet of Bonny Dundee." ??

Aye Yourrrrrrs,

Colin

[Richard Chamberlain]

Hi Clayts,
I will be very keen to keep an eye on the updates of the course. I have a project down there myself and will pop in from time to time as its nice easy access from the airport.
I'm sure superintendent Scaifey will be stoked about the green light. That poor bugger has filled out a zillion forms en route through the approval process. Dave is a top bloke and I hope you guys roll well together.

Rich

[Scott Warren]

Richard,

You're right that David is a legendary fella. Where's your job down this way?

Give me a shout when you'll be in town and we can have a beer.

[Scott Warren]

Work starts on Thursday.

http://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/Article/Major-rebuild-plan-for-Bonnie-Doon/2131/Default.aspx

[Mike_Clayton]

Richard,

Sorry I missed your post. Scaifey, is indeed happy to get going after so long.
It must seem like forever for him since the back seven holes were done as well as those few on the front.
Getting to use the new land by the practice fairway really helps to free the course up - and I think it should finish up well.
And, it will be good to do something a little different to The Lakes next door.