Jones at Merion on tv---Which hole had double plateau green?

[TEPaul]

"Could an American architect of that day have thought to place a swale into a relatively flat putting surface without going to Britain or seeing drawings of overseas courses ?"


Mayday:

You have just got to remember that the men who originally created Merion East (Wilson, Griscom, Lloyd, Francis and Toulmin) were not all strangers to Europe and Britain and golf in Britain and Europe when they did what they did in 1911. At least two of them were definitely familiar with it at that point. To understand why that was it does help to understand something about their families as well as some of the details of the actual businesses they were in.

[Chip Gaskins]

Wow, OK, so this makes sense.  Macdonald was there at some point.  Now I realize that the green at #6 is really a Road Hole rendition.  Cool!

Chip I am not sure if you are joking or not, but either way here is a description of the 6th (then the 3rd) from the New York Times in 1916:

The 3rd hole is 427 yards, par 4, and the best way to play it is to "cross a fence before you come to it."  In other words the shortest route to the green is across the corner of somebody's corn lot, with an open shot to the green if the carry is made, and a half dozen assorted shots back to the fairway if the ball falls short.  The golfer who plays safe by taking the dog-leg journey to the right toward the green will hardly reach his destination in two strokes, as there is a pit just short of the green directly in his path, and placed there for the express purpose of thwarting his intentions.   

David-

I wasn't joking.  The current #6 green reminds me of a Road Hole (minus the US Open rough around the bunker).  Not so much the tee shot, though maybe what it used to look like did...

See for yourself:

[TEPaul]

"Could an American architect of that day have thought to place a swale into a relatively flat putting surface without going to Britain or seeing drawings of overseas courses?"


Mayday:

To add to my post above that addressed your question above, it looks like we can now verifiably put at least Rodman Griscom of the Wilson Committee in 1911 abroad before Merion East and with experience with British golf and GB architecture. A bio of Ben Sayers Snr. puts Rodman Griscom and his sister Francis in North Berwick in 1906 and 1911 and Francis there for an extended period in 1902. They both used Ben Sayers Snr as an instructor and it seems it was Rodman who got Ben's son George to come to Merion East as its pro.

By the way, Rodman was already a very good golfer, having won the Philadelphia Amateur around the turn of the century and of course his sister, Francis, won the 1900 US Amateur playing for Merion. Their father, Clement Griscom, was the one on whose estate, Dolabran, one of the old Haverford (MCC) nines was on. Clement Griscom was also the chairman of what was known as the International Mercantile Marine (IMM) or sometimes known affectionately as the "Shipping Trust." It had over a million tons at sea, it owned the Red Star Line, the American Line and was the owner or US agent of the White Star Line which of course included the Titanic. IMM had numerous shipping connections in Europe, particularly Holland, and the company was massively stock capitalized by Drexel & Co. and particularly J.P. Morgan & Co. Horatio Gates Lloyd was a partner of both companies, by the way. Rodman's brother, Lloyd, was the US Ambassador to Italy in 1909.

Do you think people like that went abroad much, and being really good golfers, does it sound like they had a lot of experience with GB golf and architecture? Sure sounds like it, wouldn't you say? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday,

I'd think that those early guys developed a rather steep learning curve when it came to drainage, especially surface drainage on greens.

Hence, unique architecture could only exist after they addressed their first concern..... drainage.

[JC Jones]

Maybe Wilson just liked the idea of a swale in the middle of the green after seeing it either abroad or at NGLA. 

Chip,

Now that you point it out, I do see it.  The main difference for me is the green at #6 has more room on the back right and doesn't go as far left behind the bunker as the original.  That and the swale at #6 isn't as sever or steep.

[TEPaul]

JC:

There is no swale on #6; never has been and the swale on the original 2nd green at Merion probably couldn't have been conceived by Wilson from NGLA because there was no green there with a big swale---eg there was no biarritz at NGLA, and Wilson apparently had never been abroad before about March 1912. However, as I pointed out above, Rodman Griscom apparently had been abroad and knew GB architecture before NGLA or Merion East as he apparently spent a lot of time at North Berwick in 1906 and 1911 which back then probably had the most prominent side to side swale in a green (#16) that existed at that time.

[JC Jones]

Tom,

I shifted gears to talk about #6's similarities to the Road Hole, I did not mean to imply that I thought there was, at any point, a swale on #6.

As for #2, my point was that the presence of a swale on #2 does not indicate, verify nor confirm the involvement on CBM.  There could potentially be a million reasons why there was a swale on #2.

[TEPaul]

"As for #2, my point was that the presence of a swale on #2 does not indicate, verify nor confirm the involvement on CBM.  There could potentially be a million reasons why there was a swale on #2."


JC:

I completely agree. But as of today I think it may've helped that now we seem to know that at least Griscom was familiar with North Berwick and before both NGLA and Macdonald's ideas and Merion East, where many of us think the idea for a massive side to side green swale may've come from including for C.B. Macdonald. Did you know that the town of North Berwick was sometimes referred to back then as "the Biarritz of the North?"

I am glad to see that you and apparently so many others on here are beginning to recognize that this idea that has been proffered, promoted and endlessly argued on here by just a couple of contributors that most everything about the original design of Merion East is traceable back somehow to some idea or recommendation of C.B. Macdonald as if those men from Merion on that committee were too much the novices then to think of anything for themselves when they designed and created that golf course in 1911 and 1912-----is a stretch in logic, reasoning, documentation, argumentation, fact and history, to say the least.

[JESII]

So Tom, to be clear, are you saying it is more likely that the value of a swale like this, and its beneficial characteristics, which traces its roots back to Europe, was more likely Rodman Griscom's than it was CBM?

[TEPaul]

Sully:

No, that's not what I said or what I'm saying. What I just said and was intending to say was some research seems to show that Rodman Griscom had some real familiarity with GB golf and architecture and particularly North Berwick in at least 1906 and 1911 which back then had perhaps the biggest and most prominent side to side green surface swale extant on its 16th green.

From his own book, Macdonald mentioned he visited North Berwick himself in 1906. I suppose it's certainly possible he ran into Rodman Griscom and his sister Francis when he visited NB in the summer of 1906. Don't forget, it was Griscom who got Macdonald and Whigam to first visit Ardmore in June of 1910.  

I'm trying to deal with veriable facts here, and not speculative opinion! Haven't you noticed?  

But if you would like me to simply speculate---I would say, sure, to me it would be far more likely it was Griscom and not Macdonald who came up with the idea of the side to side swale on the original Merion East 2nd green, if he was the only one on the Wilson Committee who had real familiarity with NB. After all, I think we can all pretty comfortably conclude that it was Griscom who was with the Wilson Committee at Merion East in early 1911 a whole lot more than Charles Blair Macdonald was! 

[DMoriarty]

Chip,

I agree with you about the green on No. 6, but some things are best suggested by someone other than me.  

As for the tee shot, with todays fairway widths, conditions, equipment (and without a shed) it is more difficult to immediately see, but back in the day of wider fairway and shorter drives I think it would have been more apparent.  Various old descriptions (such as the one above from the NYTimes) indicate that the strategic underpinnings of the hole were very similar to that of the road hole.  

The tee was placed behind the corner of a lot that did not originally belong to the club (the "corn lot") and the green side bunker (which apparently used to be a very nasty pit) was placed so that a successful drive over the corner would have provided the golfer a big advantage.  Even as club chipped away at the adjacent property, they built and maintained bunkers and mounds right at the corner, front of the tee, so that the golfer would continue to face this difficult choice.  

In short, this was pretty sophisticated stuff, strategically, and intentionally so.  This sort of sophisticated strategy was common at Merion but my opinion it represented a substantial departure from most of what was out there, especially around Philadelphia.

Could an American architect of that day have thought to place a swale into a relatively flat putting surface without going to Britain or seeing drawings of overseas courses ?

Could an American architect or did an American architect?  I ask because at this point I don't see much reason to speculate about whether anyone at Merion could have come up with this stuff themselves.  Because we know that they did not come up with it by themselves.   In Brief:
-- Macdonald and Whigham had been involved since before Merion had purchased the land, and had inspected and considered the property long before Hugh Wilson was reported to have entered the fray.    
-- The first record of Hugh Wilson's involvement (February 1, 1911 letter to Piper) indicates that Wilson was already consulting with CBM regarding Merion.    
-- A few weeks before the layout plan would be finalized and construction begun, Wilson and his committee were at NGLA with CBM and Whigham working on the layout plan and studying the holes at NGLA.  (My guess is that this was a pretty one sided conversation.)
-- CBM and Whigham returned to Merion a few weeks later, again inspected the land a reviewed the options the Committee had come up with, and then CBM and Whigham determined the final layout plan.  
-- Add to this that a few months ago, TEPaul mentioned that he was in possession of a disc with information indicating that CBM and HGLloyd had been corresponding about the potential layout throughout the fall of 1910, and that it now looked to TEPaul like CBM and Whigham had planned the layout that fall.   Isn't that right, TEPaul?

So I think the time for speculating about what Wilson or anyone could have done on their own is long past.  We know that Wilson was far from on his own.

Same goes for this speculation and implication that, if Griscom, Lloyd or any other of the committee might have golfed abroad at some point, then they must have been the genius and inspiration behind the sophisticated strategies and features at Merion.  It is an interesting theory, but one without basis.   We know to whom Wilson went for his ideas and we know where he went for inspiration and examples.   Wilson himself told us so, as did Lesley, Tillinghast, Findlay, and Whigham, and even Alan Wilson.

JC Jones wrote:

As for #2, my point was that the presence of a swale on #2 does not indicate, verify nor confirm the involvement on CBM.  There could potentially be a million reasons why there was a swale on #2.

There is no need "to indicate, verify, or confirm the involvement of CBM" at Merion?  We know he was deeply involved throughout the design process.  He may have spent more time at Merion and done more at Merion than he did at some of the other courses he is credited with designing.    

But I am curious, do you really think there could be a million possible reasons why Merion would create a green like that?  Are these million other possible reasons more likely than the most obvious one?

Better yet, are there a million reasons why Merion would have attempted so many strategic concepts and features that were commonly utilized by CBM?  A million reasons for attempting a Redan, an Alps, a double plateau, another double plateau with a more biarritz orientation, a reported attempt to copy the Eden green, four short holes to the CBM distance recommendations, holes behind the clubhouse on land CBM recommended they add, and more?  

Are there really a million reasons that Merion could have come up with this stuff on their own?   Isn't the most likely reason that, whoever the designer, Merion East was an attempt at a course that, strategically, was very much in the CBM mold?

_____________________________________________

TEPaul,

This is as good a thread as any for you to finally come clean about those Drexel documents, don't you think?  

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
This is as good a thread as any for you to finally come clean about those Drexel documents, don't you think?"


Sure David, given the increasingly overarching ridiculousness that came before that question on your last post what is it that you'd like to know about those Drexel documents? I suppose the fact that you ask again after a hiatus and apparently some reflection, means you are now willing to remove from this website the highly insulting things you have said on numerous posts about me and Wayne Morrison, Merion and its primary historian, right?  If it makes you feel more comfortable I will go first on any of mine you care to specify.

Maybe as a show of good faith I'll just go first anyway. This particular thread from over a year ago and for both of us may be an excellent place to start! 

[DMoriarty]

Actually TEPaul, I'd much prefer that you leave your insulting posts as they are.   I am certainly willing to live with all of my posts.  We should all have to live with the error of our ways.  Plus, as is the case with these club histories, we cannot change what happened by trying to manipulate and control the evidence.

That said, I've already told you that I'd delete the posts you want me to delete, as Ran saw fit.  After all it is his website. Yet neither you nor Ran has given me a list of offensive posts.  Come to think of it, I believe I deleted a number the posts that most offended you long ago, shortly after posting them.

In the meantime, Tom, let's quit playing games.

 I don't understand is why you are trying to minimize CBM's contribution given that you have already acknowledged that CBM came up with the course in the Fall of 1910, just as I suspected.  

Were you lying about the Drexel documents?  

[Bryan Izatt]

There have been other debates on here about whether the 16th at North Berwick, back in the early 1900's, was in fact a biarritz, as we understand it today.  Seems like the jury was still out.  In the second last post, Simon Holt was going to try to nail this down.  Simon, if you read this, did you get any further on it.


http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38511.0/


Vis-a-vis Griscom going to North Berwick or Europe, I can confirm that he was a frequent trans-Atlantic crosser, although the destination appears to be France more than the UK.  I have him sailing to Europe in 1881, 1884,1888, 1889, 1906, 1911, 1913, 1922, 1925, 1926, 1929, 1933,  1935, 1936, 1937 and 1940.  Perhaps on his frequent trips to France he may have seen the chasm hole?  Perhaps he did have an eye for golf holes.  He may have been more golf-worldly aware that Wilson was before 1912.

Time to duck out again.

[TEPaul]

"Vis-a-vis Griscom going to North Berwick or Europe, I can confirm that he was a frequent trans-Atlantic crosser, although the destination appears to be France more than the UK.  I have him sailing to Europe in 1881, 1884,1888, 1889, 1906, 1911, 1913, 1922, 1925, 1926, 1929, 1933,  1935, 1936, 1937 and 1940.  Perhaps on his frequent trips to France he may have seen the chasm hole?  Perhaps he did have an eye for golf holes.  He may have been more golf-worldly aware that Wilson was before 1912."


Bryan:

Thank you so much for that information. It helps for a whole lot of reasons and a number other reasons than for golf or architecture research. I've just never been any good at these ship manifests. How do you do it? How about Horatio Gates Lloyd? That could be just as interesting as Griscom and Merion but also for other reasons. Do you know what both those guys did for their business? That's a rhetorical question and partially may explain why they traveled and where they traveled. As for Griscom, if you had a father who did what he did I would think transatlantic travel would be as simple as me just getting in my car.

Thanks again.

[TEPaul]

David:

Very good then. Allow me to speak with Ran Morrissett, AGAIN, about all our insulting posts on this website and how to deal with them and then I will get back to you about how he would like to handle that. When that is done then we can speak about how to deal with those Drexel documents I have in my possession.

Are you and I in agreement about that now?

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

An agreement?  I'm not agreeing to do anything I wouldn't normally do.   As always, I will delete the posts if Ran wants me to delete them, as a courtesy to Ran and because it is his website, and I'll do it whether or not you ever come clean about these documents.   If Ran wants me to delete any or all of the posts you want deleted, have Ran contact me. 

But frankly, Tom, I am disappointed that you are still trying to make me jump though hoops before you will share relevant information or even tell us whether you have been lying to us.  You must realize that this sort of thing is not what Ran wants of his website, is it?   

And, as was mentioned on the other thread, aren't you working on the USGA archives project?  Surely holding information hostage to your personal demands  is in direct conflict with what the USGA archives is trying to accomplish, is it not?

A simple question, Tom.  Were you lying about this Drexel disk, or not?   

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
An agreement?  I'm not agreeing to do anything I wouldn't normally do.   As always, I will delete the posts if Ran wants me to delete them, as a courtesy to Ran and because it is his website, and I'll do it whether or not you ever come clean about these documents.   If Ran wants me to delete any or all of the posts you want deleted, have Ran contact me."


David:

Thank you and I certainly will speak with Ran and ask him to contact you if that's what you want and ask for. And I will go farther and guarantee you I too will delete those posts on here that either he or you feels are personally insulting or not deserving to be on this website or whatever or even do it if just you feel they are.

How about them apples?  

What the Hell, if this works out as well as it just might perhaps we all can actually get together and get Tom MacWood to do the same including what he said about Merion's historian, John Capers, who has never even participated on this website!

[DMoriarty]

Again, Tom, I don't want you to delete your posts.   We can't change history by playing games with the source material.

Meanwhile, my question remains unanswered:  Were you lying about this Drexel disk, or not?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

I thought you guys got divorced.

TEPaul & David M,

Can we bring Merion up for discussion without dredging up all of the old angst ?

[mike_malone]

 I had two emotions when I started this topic. One was the thrill of finding something historical that could be explored by our experts. The other was the hope that I could get famous for beginning a 1000 page diatribe on Merion.

[TEPaul]

"Can we bring Merion up for discussion without dredging up all of the old angst?"


Sure Pat, no problem. I think I brought up something on this thread that would interest you since I recall some time ago you asked if it could be determined if any of the Wilson Committee had been abroad and familiar with GB architecture before MCC moved their golf course from Haverford to Ardmore. As you can see above I believe I just proved that apparently Rodman Griscom (and his US Amateur champion sister, Francis) spent a good deal of time abroad with their golf, particularly at North Berwick.

As for dredging up all of the old angst; I didn't do that at all. Check out Post #35. That's where it was dredged up again. Apparently David Moriarty thinks these Drexel documents have something to do with Mayday's thread about Bob Jones on a green apparently at Merion with a side to side swale in it. 

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

Bringing up the Drexel documents is dredging up old angst?   I have no angst about these documents.   Do you?

I just want to advance the conversation.   A month or so ago you wrote that you had a disk containing information indicating that CBM and HGLloyd had been corresponding about the potential layout throughout the fall of 1910, and that it now looked to you like CBM and Whigham had planned the layout that fall.

Do these documents say anything about the green on the 2nd hole?   Do they say anything about the double plateau green on the 2nd hole?

Do these documents exist, or were you lying about the Drexel disk?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Is it possible that AWT's significant swale on # 13 at Somerset Hills was influenced by Merion, or, were they both influenced by another "single" green ?

[JC Jones]

Is it possible that AWT's significant swale on # 13 at Somerset Hills was influenced by Merion, or, were they both influenced by another "single" green ?

Or, does the presence of a swale mean that CBM designed Somerset Hills?  If I go and build a green with a swale in my backyard does that necessarily mean, or is it an "obvious reason" that CBM was deeply involved in the design process? 

David M,

"We" don't know he was deeply involved in the design process.  Some may think he was, others don't.  I don't think it is healthy to project our opinions as consensus knowledge.  That may be why it is difficult for you to suggest some things about Merion.

On to the substance, thanks for pointing out that information regarding #6, I found it to be very informative and I hadn't looked at the course in that way before.  Assuming arguendo that you are correct and that CBM was more involved in the design process that we think.  What do you see as Wilson's role?  Was he simply the construction guy?  If so, should his name be removed from the "by line" or should he have to share it?