Rethinking the Redan

[Mike Hendren]

For a redan to play as conceived, shouldn't the fairway kickplate be larger than the putting surface?  On most I have played it is far more difficult to land the ball precisely on the kickplate than it is on the green itself.  Wouldn't such holes play better if the kickplate was excessively large and inviting, funneling into a much smaller - ideally narrower, putting surface? 

Mike

[Michael Hayes]

This is what I love about the 17th at Pac Dunes.  Just carry the short right bunker and you will hit your next shot with a putter.  Shots hit 20-25 yards short right funnel to the lower tier of the green.  Shots taken at the green invariably end up on the top tier or off the back making three a really tough score.  I really feel that the front tier is the objective on this hole and have rarely seen a back pin location.

MH

[Michael Dugger]

I think the variety of the redan is something appealing about that type of hole.

Some appear more docile than others. 

[Mike Hendren]

Good point, MDugger.  The architecture can be tweaked to make the hole strategic or penal I suppose. 

MichaelH, in that sense the 17th at Pac Dunes is not unlike the redan at Lookout Mountain where the fairway cant is more subtle yet better integrated with the putting surface so that a right side leave still leaves a reasonable play with the putter.

Mike

[Michael Hayes]

Playing right at 17 on pac dunes means at worst you will make 4, and an easy 4 at that.  If one is taking dead aim at the flag, better hit it perfect or 5+ is now in the equation.

 In a sense #5 at pac dunes plays like a reverse redan to any pin not on the top tier.  It is a very risky shot to go at a middle or front flag with the deep right side bunkers.  The left hand kick plate is much smaller but the shot is pretty short, and putts to any pin not far left don't have a ton of break to them

[Bryan Izatt]

For a redan to play as conceived, shouldn't the fairway kickplate be larger than the putting surface? 

...................... 

Mike

Conceived of by who?  The Redan at North Berwick stands as the template upon which others Redans were based.  It does not have a large kickplate.  The gully in front of the green rises up pretty quickly right into the green.  Not to say that variations on the Redan theme couldn't include larger kickplates, just that a large kickplate wasn't part of the original concept.

[Kyle Harris]

A copy of the Redan at North Berwick would also preclude the first portion of the green still sloping toward the tee, no?

[Bryan Izatt]

Yes, if you're speaking of an exact copy.

[Anthony Gray]

For a redan to play as conceived, shouldn't the fairway kickplate be larger than the putting surface?  On most I have played it is far more difficult to land the ball precisely on the kickplate than it is on the green itself.  Wouldn't such holes play better if the kickplate was excessively large and inviting, funneling into a much smaller - ideally narrower, putting surface? 

Mike

   Very good point Mike.Since I am not an accomplished golfer I like the conceptof a redan reducing "target golf" and adding to the rub of the green.The idea of creating more funnelingis appealing.

   Anthony

[Norbert P]

. . .    I like the conceptof a redan reducing "target golf" and adding to the rub of the green.The idea of creating more funnelingis appealing.

  

  Makes me want to write a limerick.

   There once was a stewardess for Aer Lingus . . .


  Over the years I've found that the concept of using the ground for a greenward shot has to be so completely obvious to the average golfer that the offerings of various Redans go unappreciated - or even scorned.  How many of us have heard the target golfer complain because he hit the ball within 10 feet and "got robbed by a stupid green"?  "Oh, that's the Redan concept; the best landing point is back there." . . .  Then the invariable "A green should hold a great shot."  Summed up with "I agree."  Which, like the Redan concept, usually gets whiffed by their comprehension skills.

  Good question Michael H.  In the land is where the answer lies.


And, of course, design melding with maintenance practices.

[Simon Holt]

The green at North Berwick doesn't slope towards the tee much at all.  In fact, I don't think it does in the slightest.

The kicker is also virtually all part of the green unlike say NGLA which is certainly before the green to funnel the ball down the green.  If you land the ball short at North Berwick you will very rarely make the green due to the 'dip'.  The extreme front right before the green has a slight kicker but if anything that is the section that slopes toward the tee.  This means that the ball will stop there from time to time (if you are too far right and it doesn't have enough juice) and you are left with the hardest shot on the course down the green with no chance of getting the ball near 90% of the pin positions.

I think the biggest differences between the original and the copies I have played is the semi blind nature of the tee shot at NB and the depth of the valley before the putting surface.  Wonderful hole- original and best

[Sean_A]

Simon

While I agree usually the biggest difference with Redanalikes is the blind nature of the original being turned into a fully visible green (often downhill strangely), but I disagree about the Redan's green.  There is no question the front part of the green slopes toward the tee.  For the ground shot essentially the player has to bang one over the bunkers and short of the rise to the green, but flat enough to run over the highest part of the green (more or less the middle).  If one can do ALL this with a bit of draw then all is right with the world.  Its an incredibly hard shot to pull off, partly because there really isn't a big kickplate on the right to play off (so as to avoid skirting with the left bunker).  I have played more than a few Redanalikes and none are as complicated as the original (and still the best imo), though Yeamans is very good, but really not a Redan in the same sense as N Berwick's.  I think the reason so many people rate the general concept of the Redan highly, but not the Redan itself is down to visuals.  North Berwick's Redan isn't terribly visually impressive, where as many other Redans do look cool from the tee.

Ciao

[Bryan Izatt]

Simon

.....................

There is no question the front part of the green slopes toward the tee.  For the ground shot essentially the player has to bang one over the bunkers and short of the rise to the green, but flat enough to run over the highest part of the green (more or less the middle). 

..........................

 

Sean,

I'm not sure why you are remembering the green sloping to the tee and the highest part of the green being in the middle?  Here are two pictures - one from the intermediate ridge in front and one from the rear.  The green does not slope to the tee.  The highest point is near the front right corner.  There might be a bit of a rise up from the very front right edge of the green to the high point, but the whole thing tilts to the left.

 

[Sean_A]

Bryan

I am not sure if we are talking at cross purposes, but what you are seeing and what I am seeing are the same.  The rise to the middle of the green is on an axis cutting across the green (as you say, sloping left), but it also faces toward the tee - no?  The way I am envisioning the earlier description is of a green which runs away from the tee.  I think this is generally true, but more accentuated from the middle of the green.  To me the entire elevation change of the hole is remarkably subtle as I bet the back green area isn't much different from the teeing area.  The blindness is caused by the rise short of the green and lessening toward the middle of the green.  In effect, I think the rise to the middle (which again is on an axis cutting diagnally across the green) really works as a way to flatten the green and not make it is such a hard front to back slope.  As I say, I think the original is easily the most complicated of the Redanalikes I have seen.

Ciao

[Simon Holt]

Hi Sean,

Hmm. Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes but I don't think the green slopes towards the tee at all.  Certainly not to the extent that many locals would describe it that way, in fact quite the opposite.  Perhaps on a slight angle that you are describing but certainly not so that you can play directly into any up slope that is actually on the green- its all right to left at the kicker.  You describe the shot correctly but I suppose the proof is that no ball on the green would ever roll back towards the tee, they would always roll towards the 16th fairway (wall) or the bunker.  The green is actually more in line with the tee than people give it credit for, the illusion comes from the ridge running from the 16th tee along the top of the crux bunker.

The second picture shows the kicker is mainly on the green at NB rather than before on many other Redans.

I would go out there now and test this all but by the look of the first green which is 300 yards from where I am sat, it would be 6 inches under snow!  It may well prove to be one of these things where I have played it so many times I have just made an assumption rather than taking the time to look properly but this is the one hole I have spent a vast amount of time looking at.

I hope the golfing weather is better where ever you guys are at the moment!

Simon

PS.  Sean, that ground shot you describe is Old Skool to the max!  We try it for fun but not as a legitimate way of taming the Redan!  The older members who cant make the carry all the way to the green often pull it off though!!  Short and putting/chipping onto that green is not the place to be!  Look forward to meeting one day up here and playing so please get in touch.