[LeeHarris]

Please do not flame me for this, I am just asking.

Lets just say you designed a hole and wanted a bunker in the middle of the fairway,  and you put it at say 250 yards out to challenge the better players to carry it (perhaps to gain an advantageous second shot angle or whatever)

Now, would you arrange the tees such that different handicap players all face the question posed by this ? and is there a set way to look at it, ie an 18 handicapper might expect to risk that sand from 200 yds, so those tees would be 50 yds up on the back ones?

Are courses ever designed where if you sit down and look at the strategy it actually only applies to a certain strength of player?

I know that great holes should appeal to all levels of golfers but am not totally appreciative of how often this can be achieved in reality

I actually like seeing courses that are very simple where there are few bunkers, and more undulations and rub of the green, Ive seen pictures where the tee strategy is based around a single bunker, but I couldnt help but think that this would only affect a subset of all golfers - very bad or very good golfers would probably not even "see" that particular bunker

[me]

Just bumping this up in the hope of some light being shed.

[Brian Phillips]

Lee,

Check your instant message service.  I have sent you a message.

Cheers  Brian

[Slag_Bandoon]

  The shoulds and shouldn'ts can get muddly with a general question that requires answers which may sound formulaic.  I'm with you about less bunkers and more golf ball action.  The tee placement isn't always just length but angle and personal club selection.   I played Pacific Dunes this summer from the Black tees (where I had no business being) and was using my Driver on most par 4's and 5's.  It was iffy and the bunkers were usually just out of reach (but not the rough).  A couple of weeks ago I played from the White's (Gold really)  and usually hit with my 5 Wood and kept it in play on all holes but 1.  
   Now, the distance was shorter obviously but using the 5W made it more enjoyable and I kept away from the bunkers for the most part.  
   I guess what I'm trying to say is that a player has to take some responsibility in designing the course as he/she plays it.  It's educational, interactive and empowering.  

[RandyC]

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but Slag's post was something I was curious about. Shortly after Pac Dunes opened, Tom Doak posted that he was worried that the course may be too easy. Now that I've had the chance to play the course twice (both times to the tune of 83 swings   ) I vote for "NOPE." I played thas blacks both rounds, where all the holes were of reasonable length and challenge, but I still found plenty of trouble/challenge from tee to green (even without wind this past weekend!).

As for the "real" question on this thread, it seems as though the placement of tees in regard to hazards at Pacific Dunes were well thought out to challenge players so long as they were at the right set of tees.  

Carry on...

[Bob_Huntley]

If you can't par every hole from the whites why play the blacks?

[Stan Dodd]

The concept of multiple tees addresses this point.  The bottom line is getting players to play from the appropriate teesin relation to thier ability level.  There is the ego factor.  This is not meant sound totally negative to today's recreational players. But by and large this issue is solved by players playing from tees to match ability.  Perhaps handicapping should involve different tees rather than strokes?

[RandyC]

From Rennaissance Golf's Web site:

"we decided Pacific Dunes could remain short, with back tees still in range of the 5-handicap player."

How have other players found the difficulty level at Pacific Dunes? To me it seems about perfect - from the back it's difficult enough for all (excepting Tour players, where few courses are "tough enough") but certainly not a pushover. Most players seem to choose the green tees, which seems an appropriate level for the "average" player, but no walk in the park, either! At courses that aren't "7000 yard championship" courses, it seems easier for people to select an appropriate tee.

What other newer courses tip out around 6500-6600 yards, providing a fun but reasonable challenge for all levels? I think Mike Stranz has done a few of these...

[LeeH]

Hi guys

sorry I didnt get any instant message?

OK guys I am probably not smart enough to see but I dont really get the answer here?

Lets say an architect puts a bunker in position X on the fairway as part of a design. Is this based on the play from the black tee, regardless of forward tees? or are the other tees arranged so that effectively all levels of player "see" the bunker ?

I am guessing the design must be based on a single tee position or that would be mental, and then other tees are added to bring the key features of the hole into range for all levels ?

does that make sense?

[Jeremy Glenn. (Guest)]

The accepted manner of designing for different handicaps is to design the hole for the scratch handicapper from the back tee, and then to add an appropriate number of forward tees so that the hole plays in this pre-determined way for all golfers.

However, rather than having one strategy and several tees, why not have one tee (or at least fewer tees) and several strategies?

In other words, why not adapt the hole's strategies to the golfers abilities, rather than adapting the other golfers to the strategy of the best players.

An perfect example of this was given to me by ian andrew several years ago.  We were touring a course in Montreal that he was renovating (or soft-redesigning...), and we came upon a new bunker that he had placed in a hillside about 150 yards from the tee of the 10th hole.  As there wasn't much separation between the back and forward tee, good golfers wouldn't even notice this bunker, but the shorter hitters would be quite challenged by it.  When I asked him about this bunker, he basically told me something along the lines of: "It's a hazard for the high handicappers.  They need some challenges as well".

Plus, it looked good.  In fact, he probably put it there simply for looks.  Strategically speaking, he let the chips fall were they may.

It all made perfect sense to me.  Why should all level of abilities be faced with the same strategy, hazards and choices?  Different golfers should be faced with different choices.

[Chris Kane]

Its fine to have the forward tees in a position so that the higher marker will confront the same challenges as the guy from the back tee, but what happens with the next shot?  The scratch marker might hit 6-iron, while the hacker hits 2-iron.

Therefore the hole is playing differently anyway.

The reality is that different tees will not mean that the course plays the same for all levels of golfer.

[LeeH]

Thanks fellas
I wasnt trying to say how it should be done, just really asking,
I can see the single tee idea working although not sure how it would work on a hole where the driving strategy is basically a single bunker, and I agree of course it cant play the same for all golfers
I was just basically thinking when an architect walks his hole and says, "aha here is a bunker for such and such" when he sketches that out, is it based on a certain tee and then other tees are added later etc

but thanks fellas, that made sense

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I feel the way to address this most important of questions is to use angles, strategy combined with distance. The strategy of a hole begins with the tee shot. I believe distance changes combined with a less difficult angle will make the hole playable for a 20 handicapper while leaving to tougher ange for the 5 and below golfer. I really believe a new course should use tougher or more strategic angles from 6400 to 7400 yards and less difficult from 5000 to 7000 yards. This allows overlaping tees for most of the golfers and allowing choices as to difficulty.

[Mike O'Neill]

The beauty of multiple tees, just like wide fairways, is that a given golf hole allows for a variety of options when there are multiple tees. In the case of the really high handicapper, a very forward tee might allow for the option of actually playing the hole if there is a forced carry for example.

And I don't think that designers necessarily expect a given golf hole to offer up the same exact strategy to all levels of players. In some cases, a hole might provide a great opportunity to test the scratch golfer after the previous two holes were breathers for everyone, high and low handicappers alike. But that does not mean that the designer necessarily wants to test the high handicapper at that same point in the round. The best designer will, in my opinion, design a variety of golf courses in one. That designer will allow for a variety of wind conditions and skill levels if there is space enough and budget enough to do so. Yes, there has to be some constants, like the putting greens. The greens will be the same for all. But as John points out, the angles into those greens might be different. 18 holes played a variety of ways. Sounds like a lot of fun to me.

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