The Lakes article in anticipation of Aussie Open

[Ronald Montesano]

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/golf/claytons-fresh-twist-creates-open-debate-20101128-18cgw.html

Well done, "chainsaw Mike."

[Mike_Clayton]

Ronald,

Interesting article - and at least there is some discussion about golf architecture.
Greg Norman today signalled he is no fan and called it 'severe' and I am not sure whether to see it as a compliment or not.
As usual there is a superficial debate on the television news looking for a headline but it will be interesting to see how it plays.
Some of the mowing lines are not perfect because of some poorish turf around some greens but some of the players seem to really enjoy it.

[Kevin Pallier]

"Along with the neighbouring Australian Golf Club, The Lakes is the most recognisable course in Sydney, or rather, it was"

umm - has he not been to NSW GC ?

Anyway - we have had a fair bit of rain lately and the forecast is more is expected to come - it probably will be a wet Aust Open.

Am really looking forward to seeing how the pro's play it  - I would tend to use the term "testing greens" rather than "severe".

The 13th will probably get a bit of press 


Ronald

I did a review of The Lakes earlier this year
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43966.0/

[Ronald Montesano]

Michael...please relay to Greg the following:  waaaaahhhhhh

Kevin...Looking forward to reading your posts on The Lakes.

[Sean Walsh]

And from the horse's mouth

http://www.backpagelead.com.au/golf/3225-why-i-renovated-the-lakes-

a really good australian sport website.

[Terry Thornton]

As usual there is a superficial debate on the television news looking for a headline but it will be interesting to see how it plays.

Paul Gow on 'The Pro Shop' on OneHD seemed to suggest that removing trees removes strategy, and that the large green on 14 would mean not one player would put a ball into the water all week. I'm not sure if that qualifies as superficial debate, maybe just a mass one.

[Mike_Clayton]

It is ridiculous to say that there will be fewer balls in the water - green used to be 20 yards over the water with rough and bunkers inbetween.
Now the green comes all the way down to the edge of the lake - and they can put a pin much closer to the water. There will be more balls in the water if players go at the front pins - and lots of three putts from the back from those who fly safely long.

[Kevin Pallier]

Agree Mike

The greens will be softer so there should be more firing at pins. The fairways which already don't allow much roll (kikuyu) will also be heavy.

After the winds of last years Aust. Open at NSW GC it will be an interesting tournament for different reasons this year.

[Andy Gray]

An interesting article about the course set up for the open...

http://playgolf.com.au/default.aspx?s=maonewsdisplay&id=70782

Seems like Trevor Herden knows how to set up a good course for exciting golf...

[David_Elvins]

As usual there is a superficial debate on the television news looking for a headline but it will be interesting to see how it plays.

Paul Gow on 'The Pro Shop' on OneHD seemed to suggest that removing trees removes strategy, and that the large green on 14 would mean not one player would put a ball into the water all week.

Paul Gow is 8 over after 11, 14 shots behind the leaders and  second last of those that have teed off.  

Maybe he got it wrong?  Or psyched himself out? 

[Brett_Morrissy]

I haven't seen much of the golf yet, except for a few holes of Ogilvy and Scott - the 13th was a highlight - FW lies tilting to the right and down, water left, having to aim left edge of green/bunkner to allow for the ball below your feet, slight pull/straight leaves you over the knife edge ridge left to a nasty little hollow and challenging up & down - excellent.

[Scott Warren]

I see Chris Kane got a little mention in Sydney's Daily Telegraph today as being the caddie for Rd1 leader Matthew Griffin.

Could be a profitable week!

[Brett_Morrissy]

Does anyone know any members at The Lakes - how have they enjoyed the wider fairways and the larger more contoured greens? a heap less trees  - a few less lost balls?

[Bryan Izatt]

Doesn't look like the Shark has warmed up to the greens.  From the AP:

...............................

Greg Norman, who shot 70 Saturday and is 13 shots off the lead, said he was no fan of the new, slow undulating greens at The Lakes.

"They're too slow for me," Norman said. "I'm a fast-green putter and I can't get the right line or the speed with them, so you're always fighting and you've got to hit the ball too hard to really get comfortable.

"They've got so much undulation, they can't get them too much quicker. If you got them any quicker, balls would be rolling into the water and balls rolling off the greens.

The 55-year-old Norman said the greens were basically not fit for an Australian Open.

"It's a problem if you're going to have a golf championship here," Norman said. "For the members, it's not. For the members, you're going to have to keep them pretty slow for them or they'd never get around here.

"But obviously someone's feeling good with it. They're shooting 13-under, but they're just not my cup of tea."

...............................

[Mike_Clayton]

Greg is well entitled to his opinion but to suggest balls would be running off greens and into water is just rubbish.
They are too soft thanks to 5 inches of rain at the start of the week and they are not quick - maybe a foot or two short of ideal.
They are undulating and don't need to be that quick to make for interesting putting.
If they were as firm as they would normally be and running a foot quicker they would be prefect.

[Bryan Izatt]

Yes, it sounds like a lot of grousing; I guess he just doesn't like greens with undulatioon in them.

Although, I do play a Norman-designed course from time to time here and it's greens are usually, for member play, running around 10 and they have some fair undulation in them.  Do The Lakes greens have a LOT of undulation; how high are the knobs and ridges and swales? 

How slow are the greens at The Lakes running at the Open?  Less than 10? Wonder what Greg considers fast - 12 or 13?

[Mike_Clayton]

Brian,

The greens were running at 9.5 the first three days but they were to be double cut last night and again in the morning.
The greens are undulating - which is quite unusual for Australia where most of the traditional courses relied on tilt, both from back to front and sideways allied with high speeds, to make putting hard.
These greens are different - there is a lot of internal contour and they rely on the undulation to make the putting difficult - as opposed to speeds of 13-14.

[Grant Saunders]

Mike

First of all, congratulations on the work at the Lakes. I had seen pictures prior to the tournament but the tv coverage is showcasing the work well.

A couple of questions:

Obviously the rain in the lead up has impacted on the conditioning of the course and the fescue is playing very thick and lush. A large amount of it is is in areas which I would imagine are covered by the course irrigation system. Did you have much input in altering sprinkler heads and throws to try and minimise the amount of water those areas receive? Also, how has it been received using fescue in such a warm season grass dominated market?

The 13th hole look like a blast to play and it is great to watch the players approach it differently. Is the longer grass on the RHS of the green a permanent feature or have they altered it for the tournament?

 Also, how hard has it been to educate those involved on the approriate green speed for the contours you have designed? Fast speeds still seem to be the ultimate goal in Oz and I imagine it to be a tough mentality to alter.

Grant

[Mark_F]

The Lakes should have got Graeme Grant to prepare the greens.

After all, he had them at the perfect speed for Greggie at Kingston Heath in 1995.

[Mike_Clayton]

Grant,

The fescue is thick around the bunkers - too thick I think - and once the staff have managed it for a while longer they should be able to cut it down a little.

13 was really fun to watch and Fred Couples drove it on into the wind on Friday. That was a great shot but most chose to lay it back and pitch from 100 yards or so. Many members seem to dislike the hole but I think it may grow on then as they watch good players wrestle with its questions.

The green speed thing is difficult in Australia because traditionally we have had extremely fast greens - and greens with little internal contour.
They need to be firmer but that is reliant on the amount of rain prior to the tournament.
The same course with firmer greens that were just a little quicker and the usual Sydney winds for a couple of days and the winning score is ten shots higher.

[Kevin Pallier]

Mike

Nice to see your business partner win on "your" course - he obviously liked what he saw  Please pass on the congratulations !!

I was a little dissappointed with the set-up of the course by Trevor Herden in the way that things were "dumbed down". I know we've had a lot of rain of late but to have natural feeding areas of balls to go in the water held up by thick spongy grass ? to not have the greensite surrounds on 13 shaved down ? to have the pin at the front only once ?

Well done on the redesign Mike - the layout is fantastic.

[Duncan Betts]

Mike,

Do you feel it may have been 12, possibly 24, months too early for The Lakes to host the Australian Open?

I've had a few games there and loved it, but I'd imagine it would be better to host an event with more time to settle?

[Mike_Clayton]

Duncan,

I thought the course was in terrific condition.
There were some issues with a few mowing lines but I think the course held up well.
Six weeks ago when there were a bunch of problems I would have probably agreed with you but they pulled it off.
Having said that I think it will be better next year - and hopefully it isn't so wet leading up to the tournament and there is a little wind as well.
My bet is that they will be engraving the same name on the trophy.

[Chris Kane]

As mentioned above, I spent the week inside the ropes...a few thoughts:

1. On balance the players seemed to like the course - most of them nominated a couple of greens or features which they thought were excessive or unfair, but were happy overall. Building greens like he did required Mike to take a lot of risks, and IMHO he got it right with almost all of them.

2. Kikuyu is a terrific fairway grass because it makes the course play longer, but it is a disaster around the greens. It removes the option of a bump-and-run or putt, because the kikuyu is too flukey. My player used a 52/56/60 wedge for all but one of his short shots (on Saturday he chose to putt from behind the 15th green to the back right hole, and barely made it on to the green - blame his caddy for the bad decision!), which is unusual for someone who grew up on the sandbelt and is very adept at a variety of chips and pitches.

Kevin, while the rough on the banks of the 13th green was inexplicable, it made no difference to the playability of the hole. It wasn't long enough to hold onto a ball which run off the green (as we found out on Friday!) and no player would attempt to run the ball up the banks if they were shaved.

It would be a significantly better golf course if they could somehow have couch around the greens...the design around the greens is terrific but the golf is one-dimensional.

3. What on earth were they thinking with that bizarre strip of rough on the rhs of the front of the 3rd green?

4. The greens weren't quick but would be unplayable if presented at normal Australian Open speed. They were noticeably quicker and bouncier on Sunday. The course will be a very different proposition next year if it doesn't take a bath leading up to the tournament.

5. 11 and 17 gave us fits on all four days, trying to decide upon the appropriate strategy for the second shot. Even if you don't go for the green, selecting the best place to lay up is difficult...and the pitches aren't easy. Terrific par-fives for a tournament. Obviously with 14 being very short (approaches hit with 4, 7, 8 and 5-irons) going for the green wasn't ever in question, but deciding where on the green to hit it was challenging. With a 5 being a shot lost to the field, there was real pressure to leave an easy two-putt.

[Terry Thornton]

It would be a significantly better golf course if they could somehow have couch around the greens...the design around the greens is terrific but the golf is one-dimensional.

I'm pretty sure they did prior to the renovation. What about fescue a-la Royal Melbourne?

I thought the course presented splendidly on TV. Will be very interested to talk to members at Royal Adelaide this week and hear their thoughts.