Pointless Out of Bounds

[Duncan Cheslett]

As a relative newcomer to the game of golf and an aspiring student of golf course architecture, I am becoming a little exasperated by the use of Out of Bounds lines on some courses.

I would have assumed that the original purpose of OoB posts was to mark the boundary of the course, avoiding the spectacle of golfers attempting to play shots from adjacent farmers' fields, neighbouring gardens, or from a public road. Where a potentially dangerous fast-flowing river runs through a course I can see that the banks should be OoB to help prevent accidental fallings in while attempting to make a shot. Much the same for deep lakes or cliff edges.

OoB lines between fairways strike me as being a symptom of poor initial design and unimaginative use of a flat field by simply having holes run up and down parallel with each other.

What irks me however, is the use of OoB lines simply to alter the playing characteristics of a hole. I use the par 3 4th at my own club, Reddish Vale, as an example only because I am so familiar with it.





A you can see, OoB runs all the way from the tee to the green along the left-hand side. This however, is not along the line of any natural boundary. As can be seen from an aerial shot there is plenty of room to the left of the green - indeed it is an area mown to fairway standards by the green staff. The path running through it leads to the 5th tee - it is not a public path and the only people likely to be on it are the players leaving the green.



This hole is a very tricky little one with the ground falling sharply away to the left. If the OoB line was moved further to the left as in my pic above it would not be any easier as any shot from the 'new' area would be a tough one. It would however, give a hole with a far more 'natural' feel.

I tentatively raised this question in the clubhouse bar on Friday night. Agreement was unanimous that moving the line would be an improvement. So why is it the way it is?  Because it's 'always been that way'!

I've seen similar situations on other courses. Using OoB like this in an artificial way to alter the characteristics of a hole from its natural situation without good reason strikes me as contrived conceit. I can't believe it is generally the work of the original designer - more likely a subsequent and long forgotten greens committee with an agenda of its own...

Has anyone else got examples? Or is it just me that gets a bit miffed by such things?

Incidentally, the architect at Reddish Vale was one Alister MacKenzie. I really hope this wasn't his original design for the hole!

[Adrian_Stiff]

Looks like an issue to speed up play in the RV case. I assume a ball within that area is usually lost? The PGA do this quite a bit in their set ups for tournaments for clarity.
Possibly OOB lines between fairways are where clubs have had incidents or accidents with players being hit. The cub has to be seen to be dping something to minimise the problem.
Generally I agree is not great, but you might see a lot more of this in the modern world.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Looks like an issue to speed up play in the RV case. I assume a ball within that area is usually lost?

That's the thing, though.

The area up to twenty yards left of the green is clear and perfectly playable. It is only at the tree line that the ground falls off a cliff down to the river.

I don't really see how making an area out of bounds speeds up play particularly anyhow. Most people I play with would go there and look for the ball even though they had played another one.

As for OoB between fairways; how does this prevent wayward shots endangering other players? For golfers at my level OoB posts are a ball magnet!

[Sean_A]

When I played Reddish Vale tehre were walkers using that left path and then headed toward #6 down the hill and toward the river.  This is why I asked if this was a public path on an earlier thread. 

In any case, the oob is very odd there with the trees hard up against the green.  Those trees essentially signal the player to be safe on the right.  If the oob is a safety issue, it would be far better to clear out the the trees and vegetation so a clear view is on offer.  I also think the hole would be far more attractive. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

As for OoB between fairways; how does this prevent wayward shots endangering other players? For golfers at my level OoB posts are a ball magnet!
[/quote] The idea is that the golfer is effectively penalised a heavy two strokes for going out of bounds SO WILL TAKE EXTRA CARE not to put his ball there..... I cant comment on the RV situation then if thats not the reason.

[Duncan Cheslett]

The idea is that the golfer is effectively penalised a heavy two strokes for going out of bounds SO WILL TAKE EXTRA CARE not to put his ball there..... I cant comment on the RV situation then if thats not the reason.

You're right of course. My light-hearted point was that this (inelegant) solution assumes a basic level of skill from players on both fairways. However, if a mediocre golfer is going to slice a ball across three fairways no line of white posts is going to stop him!

At RV we have no such instances of internal OoB lines.

[TEPaul]

"I would have assumed that the original purpose of OoB posts was to mark the boundary of the course, avoiding the spectacle of golfers attempting to play shots from adjacent farmers' fields, neighbouring gardens, or from a public road."


Duncan:

That is exactly the original puropose of OB posts on golf courses and it is exactly the purpose of the Out of Bounds Rule in golf going way back to the beginning of the game. In my opinion, the use of OB and OB stakes on a club's property that demark areas other than what are clearly not intended to be the golf course is bullshit.

[Adrian_Stiff]

"I would have assumed that the original purpose of OoB posts was to mark the boundary of the course, avoiding the spectacle of golfers attempting to play shots from adjacent farmers' fields, neighbouring gardens, or from a public road."


Duncan:

That is exactly the original puropose of OB posts on golf courses and it is exactly the purpose of the Out of Bounds Rule in golf going way back to the beginning of the game. In my opinion, the use of OB and OB stakes on a club's property that demark areas other than what are clearly not intended to be the golf course is bullshit.

The problem you can have is that within your duty of care the club have to take measures to make play as safe as possible. As soon as an incident occurs and an insurance company and/or lawyers get involved there is often the need to find mitigating measures. If suggestions are made and the club dont want to do it,the may not get insurance. Ultimately the penalty is as high as THE COURSE MUST BE CLOSED.
Whilst internal OOB is not nice, it serves a purpose.

[Duncan Cheslett]

In my opinion, the use of OB and OB stakes on a club's property that demark areas other than what are clearly not intended to be the golf course is bullshit.

My point exactly. Glad you agree.

I can see the argument for making the car park, maintenance yard, and clubhouse terrace Out of Bounds, but not much else. If golfers are cutting the corner of a dogleg endangering other players out of view, surely there are more effective and elegant solutions than simply designating perfectly good swathes of land as Out of Bounds.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Duplicate Post

[TEPaul]

Adrian:

Regarding your remarks in #7, yes that is what has become the problem. The fundamental essence to that is that the law and particularly lawyers (in the clothing of the area of liability issues) and golf have never been good bed-fellows and they never will be!

[Jim Nugent]

As soon as an incident occurs and an insurance company and/or lawyers get involved there is often the need to find mitigating measures. If suggestions are made and the club dont want to do it,the may not get insurance. Ultimately the penalty is as high as THE COURSE MUST BE CLOSED.
Whilst internal OOB is not nice, it serves a purpose.

So posting OOB lets the course get insurance, where otherwise it would not? 

[Adrian_Stiff]

In my opinion, the use of OB and OB stakes on a club's property that demark areas other than what are clearly not intended to be the golf course is bullshit.

My point exactly. Glad you agree.

I can see the argument for making the car park, maintenance yard, and clubhouse terrace Out of Bounds, but not much else. If golfers are cutting the corner of a dogleg endangering other players out of view, surely there are more effective and elegant solutions than simply designating perfectly good swathes of land as Out of Bounds.

You can put up 60 foot high fences, you can plant trees. Fence is instant, trees are not so quick. Duncan, there is no nice solution. Whilst I agree with you internal OOB is pretty cack, it sometimes is the best way, but it can be combined with a tree planting scheme that in time coud see the posts removed.

[Adrian_Stiff]

As soon as an incident occurs and an insurance company and/or lawyers get involved there is often the need to find mitigating measures. If suggestions are made and the club dont want to do it,the may not get insurance. Ultimately the penalty is as high as THE COURSE MUST BE CLOSED.
Whilst internal OOB is not nice, it serves a purpose.

So posting OOB lets the course get insurance, where otherwise it would not? 

Pretty much so.

[Dave Falkner]

Adrian
I dont see how merely putting up a few white sticks at ground level makes the course any safer

[Adrian_Stiff]

Adrian
I dont see how merely putting up a few white sticks at ground level makes the course any safer

Because the white sticks are out of bounds are if you go outside them it is a harsh penalty. Golfers will then be aware of the two stroke penalty and play further away which is directly safer. A lesser amount of balls will stray into the 'area intended to become safer'.

[Ken Moum]

Adrian
I dont see how merely putting up a few white sticks at ground level makes the course any safer

The reality isn't that it makes the tee shot so much safer, it also makes second shots much safer--and it puts the players at risk from balls hit off the OTHER tee.

Without the OOB, there are going to be golfers in that fairway playing towards each other. 

FWIW, I used to live in South Dakota, and there are at least four courses in the state with "in-the-air" OOB.  They each have a flagpole of some sort, and if you ball passes on the wrong side of it, you're OOB--even if it lands in bounds.  In one case they make you play back around the pole, but the other three you have to re-tee.

K

[Duncan Cheslett]

FWIW, I used to live in South Dakota, and there are at least four courses in the state with "in-the-air" OOB.  They each have a flagpole of some sort, and if you ball passes on the wrong side of it, you're OOB--even if it lands in bounds.  In one case they make you play back around the pole, but the other three you have to re-tee.

That sounds like a much better solution than a line of OB stakes. A course near me has a viscous dogleg hole of just over 300 yards to a blind green. Local rules simply prohibit attempting to make the green from the tee. It works - nobody tries it.

[Alex Miller]

I understand the idea that OoB posts between fairways are supposed to make play safer because golfers will avoid hitting it over there. Here's why they don't:

At my home course many years ago there are two holes that play back and forth across a hillside. The first one on the upper part of the hillside doglegs left and falls to the right. The second hole directly below it on the slope does the exact opposite. Opposite direction dogleg and slope. Originally there were OoB posts that worked only one way! The second hole, which is lower on the hillside, would be penalized for going to far right into the first hole's line of play. The first hole had still had no restrictions and golfers could slice the ball to their hearts content.

About 10 years ago they got rid of the OoB, and both holes play better and it is SAFER. The reason being that when there is OoB golfers will hit regardless of the danger level to others as long as they are not in the course of play. Similarly I observed fewer people would yell "Fore" because they thought they had less of an obligation after their ball was out of bounds. Trust me, I saw this and sometimes had to shout, "Fore" for them at the last second. With the OoB gone golfers now recognize the entire course as in play and treat others accordingly. What I remember as I corner of the course that one would rarely make it through without a member of their group in danger at some point has become much safer, for both golfers and their scores.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Alex - You can't legislate for a golfer not shouting Fore. The warning call is to be said when your ball is likey to hit another person. That aside some people are stupid and do play when there is danger regardless of posts, I even played with one golfer once when he played with people still on the green (albiet leaving it), his claim was they had put the flag back in.

[Alex Miller]

Alex - You can't legislate for a golfer not shouting Fore. The warning call is to be said when your ball is likey to hit another person. That aside some people are stupid and do play when there is danger regardless of posts, I even played with one golfer once when he played with people still on the green (albiet leaving it), his claim was they had put the flag back in.

Regardless of whether or not the OoB posts legislate it or not, the effect was clear. From what I saw playing that course hundreds of times the difference was very noticeable.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I advised at one club which had a great par 4 running quite close to some trees, the fairway was about 30 yards out from trees. A road was just the other side of the trees. Too many balls were going into the road. We brought out of bounds posts out  to about 2 metres of the fairway. That mitigated the problem by about 99% with the extra 30 metre buffer. I am sure there are incidents where the OOB posts work and they dont work, but it has been something where we can convince an insurance company that the potential problems will be reduced and inthe cases I have worked with there have been no recurring problems.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Duncan, I have played Reddish Vale and enjoined it very much.  I was almost OB on #4.  It is an odd OB to be sure.  There indeed some poorly positioned OB stakes.  I understand the reason, yet, there must have been a better way to deal with the routing. I always thought that #1 at Royal Liverpool was odd as well.  Interior out of bounds strike me as a way to punish a golfer for poorly routed courses.

[James Boon]

Looks like an issue to speed up play in the RV case. I assume a ball within that area is usually lost? The PGA do this quite a bit in their set ups for tournaments for clarity.

I can see the benefit of this type of OOB as a local rule in a tournament. In a similar case, I seem to recall someone mentioning that the beach on the first at macvhrihanish is classed as OOB in big tournaments to avoid any benefit in teeing off at low tide.

The internal OOB to cover up for a poor or crowded routing really drives me nuts though! I can see how the legal argument comes into it, and as Adrian says there will be cases were it does make things safer, but two things come to mind:
1, its not as if people deliberatly hit their ball OOB, so accidents still happen
2, what if a decent player thinks there is some risk reward involved and therefore sees it as an OOB to be taken on rather than avoided for safety reasons?

Cheers,

James

[Adrian_Stiff]

James & Tommy - I am not convinced that internal OOB demonstrates a bad routing. If you think outside the box,many perhaps even most golf courses have been built on relatively small blocks of land. We often discuss perfect sites on here, not all sites are that, in fact most sites are flawed. As an architect youhave to do you best to make a golf course out of the piece of cloth.#1 at Royal Liverpool I see no flaw at all, you have to protect the practice user, best line is aways left. I agree it can be a sign of a crowded routing, even then the game has grown and what was once a safe lane may now be a busy road. There is no doubt that not everyone willkeep the ball on the pitch with every strike but if you see trees left you generally hit more right. OOB mirrors the same because of the two stroke penalty. Golf course design is not always about strategy, or template greens, there are other issues that have to be taken into account although those issues like many parts of any architecture are a bit boring.