[Chip Gaskins]

Spent some time down in Charleston recently and was lucky enough to see some really neat places.

First was Mike Strantz's only private club, Bulls Bay.  In normal Strantz fashion the tee to green vistas offer lots of visual excitement.  Very neat place.  Shows you can actually move lots and lots of dirt and make a really cool product.  What an imagination Mr. Strantz had to create some of these holes.

Bulls Bay


#11


Interesting Tee Box


#18




Very cool sunset (there was a small forest fire near by)


Yeamans Hall
Whoa, talk about "old south".  Very interesting place, from the drive in to how the Raynor geometry sits on the flat land of the low country.

The often discussed #1 at Yeamans Hall.  Double Plateau.  


The Redan




Country Club of Charleston
Talk about laid back southern charm.  I truly loved CC of Charleston.  I can only imagine how great the views were looking back over at Charleston before that hideous bridge was built.



A very loose interpretation of Biarritz


THE coolest Redan I have played.


Very very bold Redan


#14 green, one of the best green complexes I have ever seen!


Odd man made land form fronting the par 5 15th


Lions Mouth
From 120 yards out in the fairway


Another view

[George Freeman]

Great pics, Chip.  Thanks for posting!  Looks like you hit the best of the best while in town!  Charleston is a special place.

How similar were CCofC and Yeamans (in feel, look, playability, ect.)?

[Ron Csigo]

Chip,

Well done!  Thanks for sharing your photos from your Charleston adventures.

Bulls Bay looks amazing.  I've been a Mike Strantz fan since the first time I played Tobacco Road.  From the pictures, Bulls Bay reminds me of Shinnecock with the clubhouse there on the top of the hill overlooking the entire course.  Is that the case?  Is the clubhouse situated on the highest point on the property with the golf course below?

With regard to the boldeness of the Redan hole at Charleston Country Club, does it closely resemble another Redan hole that you've played?  The picture of the one at Charleston Country Club looks quite severe.

[Chip Gaskins]

George

CC of Charleston and Yeamans are fairly similar.  Yeamans is on a slightly more undulating piece of property, whereas CCofC is dead pan flat.  Yeamans has a lot more trees and you can only see one or two holes around you whereas at CCofC you can everything.  To me the best greens at CCofC are better than the best greens at Yeamans, but they are both very good.  Yeamans has very interesting "feel" to it...the club that I would most associate (that I have played) would be Piping Rock.  CCofC feels like the consummate members club where everyone knows each other and is nice and chatty.

[Chip Gaskins]

Chip,

Well done!  Thanks for sharing your photos from your Charleston adventures.

Bulls Bay looks amazing.  I've been a Mike Strantz fan since the first time I played Tobacco Road.  From the pictures, Bulls Bay reminds me of Shinnecock with the clubhouse there on the top of the hill overlooking the entire course.  Is that the case?  Is the clubhouse situated on the highest point on the property with the golf course below?

With regard to the boldeness of the Redan hole at Charleston Country Club, does it closely resemble another Redan hole that you've played?  The picture of the one at Charleston Country Club looks quite severe.

Ron

The clubhouse does sit way up on the (man made) hill.  It is very dramatic.  They moved a bunch of dirt to make that possible.  With that said, it is still pretty cool, without being to contrived.

The Redan at CCofC is very bold, not as bold as Chicago Golf, but close.  I think it a little better than CGC actually.

[Mark Pritchett]

Chip,

Well done!  Thanks for sharing your photos from your Charleston adventures.

Bulls Bay looks amazing.  I've been a Mike Strantz fan since the first time I played Tobacco Road.  From the pictures, Bulls Bay reminds me of Shinnecock with the clubhouse there on the top of the hill overlooking the entire course.  Is that the case?  Is the clubhouse situated on the highest point on the property with the golf course below?

Great observation Ron, according to a member I played with at Bulls Bay this summer he told me the clubhouse was modeled after Shinnecock.  BB is a really fun course with a great membership. 

[JC Jones]

Chip,

Yeamans Hall is generally the more widely known of the two (YH and CCofC).  I've even seen one person say that he thought Yeamans was Raynor's finest work.  I am surprised you say that the best greens of CCofC are better than the best at Yeamans Hall.  I've not played either but am curious to know if you could elaborate on why you think that is and could you also rank these two courses among the template, CBM/Raynor courses that you have played.

Thanks

[Kris Shreiner]

Chip,

Happy Turkey Day lad! Some great pics and reflections on S.C. golf. I believe the area is a bit under-rated. The tracks you profiled look STRONG from my view. Even the Brahma Bull, though a bit stark from those shots, seems to have some serious test in the presentation. I've not played any of your samplings, but I'd have no trouble spending the time to take them in! Thanks again, for your appraisal!

[Chip Gaskins]

Mark

Shinnecock almost had to be the inspiration for Bulls Bay.  They certainly moved a LOT of dirt to make it happen.

Here is a picture I took of the Shinnecock clubhouse earlier this year near sunset.

[Zack Kelly]

Hey Guys I hope all is well and that you all have enjoyed your Thanksgiving.

I'm glad to hear all of the positives about the courses down here in the low country.

As far as Bulls Bay goes, it was indeed modeled after Shinnecock. I played there earlier this year with Joe Rice the owner of Bulls Bay. and he told me that he and Strantz spent a couple of weeks at Shinnecock and NGLA trying to make sure they could capture some of that feel at BB.  They for sure accomplished that with the Clubhouse look, which is actually the highest point in the county.  Anyway I thought I would clear it up, if anyone was having any doubts.

All the best,

Zk

 

[Sean_A]

Chip

Thanks for the pix.  Charleston is wonderful enough to visit without golf involved, but its nice to get a game in.  Bulls Bay is certainly an interesting concept and the idea of the large hill was incredible and out of this world.  What did you think about the some of the long walks from green to tee?  This aspect of the design puzzled me.  Come to find out, all or most Strantz courses (by some accounts anyway) are more on the difficult side of the walk in the park. 

I wish I could have seen CC of Charleston.  As a lazy bugger I am getting more and more into flat architecture and your pix show some interesting character.  Alas, I couldn't play because I suspect they figured out I am a damned yankee. 

Ciao 

[Andy Mitchell]

As a native South Carolinian, and former resident of Charleston, I felt that this was an appropriate place to make my first post here. 

I have had the opportunity to play Bulls Bay a number of times.  It really does have that Shinnecock feel.  I was told that the 75 foot tall hill that the clubhouse sits on is the highest point on the east coast south of Newport New, VA.  The practice facility at BB is excellent and the golf course is visual spectacular. 

A few criticisms on the overall design though...  The fairways a BB are in excess of 100-150 yards wide in many areas (rightly so since this part of the state gets some extremely high winds certain times of the year).  On the other hand, many of the greens seem out of scale as they arent equally as large.  While the fairways are usually firm and fast, the summer heat takes a tole on the bentgrass greens, making them soft and often slow.  In addition, many of the greens complexes lack the imagination that the rest of the course has.  While the course looks like a links course and plays so off the tee, this definately breaks down once the player reaches the green.   The walks from many greens to tees are also sometimes long and confusing.  Hole highlights are the Par 4 - 9th, the Par 3 - 14th, and the Par 4 - 18th.  A link to their website is below.  It has some really interesting pictures of the course for all to see.

http://www.bullsbaygolf.com/index.html

I have never had the opportunity to play Yeamans or CC of Charleston, but have always heard great things. I look forward to playing these courses one day.

[Mark Pritchett]

Welcome Andy, great first post!

[Adam Clayman]

In addition, many of the greens complexes lack the imagination that the rest of the course has.  While the course looks like a links course and plays so off the tee, this definately breaks down once the player reaches the green.   

Andy, +1 on the great opener. Since I haven't played it, your description is intriguing. My impression, from your brief description is that of green sites that fit more a purely aerial assault version of the sport? If you could also elaborate on the imagination aspect, it might be fruitful?

[Andy Mitchell]

You would be correct.  The golf course looks like a links course, but doesnt require you to play shots into the green in the same manner that a normal links course would.  It is definately a links course off the tee, but requires an "aerial assault" into the green.  With regard to the greens...  The approach shots visually fool you into thinking you are hitting into severely undulating greens.  When you near the green, you generally find that the greens are much less undulating than they appear.  Many of the greens (No. 1 for example) are relatively small and flat when compared to the sprawling nature of the fairways and approaches that accompany it.  On the other hand, there are a few greens that are vast and undulating.  These greens and surrounds seem to embody the same characteristics as the rest of the course. 

Don't get me wrong, BB is always fun and usually very well maintained.  I would like to see how much differently the course played if the greens were converted to a much firmer, heat tolerant bermuda grass.  I think the course would play much more challenging, requiring the whole gammet of shots.

[Chip Gaskins]

Andy

I completely agree with you about the greens at Bulls Bay.  It certainly is one of the biggest juxtapositions I have seen on a great golf course.  The fairways are wide and spacious with inspiring vistas and huge mounding and then when you get to the greens and its like, huh?  By no means are they terrible, its just very different than I expected.  I have only played Tobacco Road, Royal New Kent, and Stonehouse from Strantz and all have much more interesting greens/green complexes. 

I also agree about the somewhat confusing routing, but I am very different than most when it comes to routing.  I would rather have 18 great holes with a bit of confusing routing rather than 18 so-so holes with a great routing.  I never have dinged Tobacco Road for its long walk from 12 to 13 or 14 to 15.  I just would rather have 18 fun holes.  And Strantz always seem to seek out/build  the best holes in lieu of the best "routing".

Almost made an ace on #17....4 inches away, ugg!  Anyway, really really cool place.

Chip

[Jud_T]

That Redan looks sick!

[PCCraig]

Chip:

Thank you for posting the pictures of three great golf courses. Charleston and its surrounding area really is underrated as a golfing adventure. There is such a depth of quality golf from numerous GCAs modern and classic, as well as courses on all angles of the price spectrum.

The one course I want to play and have driven past a bunch is the Charleston Muni. Apparently Raynor gave some design advice on the course when working on YH and CC of Charleston in the same neighborhood. I think it would be fun to head out there and spot some of the Raynor features.

[RJ_Daley]

IIRC, we had some good discussion when Mike Strantz first conceived and built BB, discussing the idea of creating the enormous built up hill and how he make long folding valley of fold runs out and back towards the focal point clubhouse center, going around the compass with these folds or fingers reaching out.  I think Strantz really showed his genius with BB.  He sort of honed his ideas and craft at Tobacco Road, Caledonia and True Blue.  (I haven't seen New Kent and Stone House)  But, it seems to me one can find elements of TR, NC, and TB in the product at BB.  I only wish Mike could have found a better way to make the green to tee walks closer.  But, BB is underappreciated, IMO.  The idea of not having the dramatic green contours is a bit off, IMO.  And, some of the contouring is unique thinking like the 11th inverted Biarritz.  Certainly TR has more contouring, but what is there at BB fits the overall concept, IMO.  Also, I don't know about the firmness throughout the year.  The climate and soil type to turf species just can't produce it in the foregreen, unfortunately.  So, I don't think Strantz even considered green approaches with that in mind.  I think he stuck with his vision and hit a home run with what he had and created with the mega built up hill and folds.

CCof C and YH while sharing the Raynor template approach, are just varied enough in terrain to make them diverse and interesting contrasts.  Certainly both are very delightful walks in the park, and stylish old tradition clubs dripping with atmosphere.

 I really couldn't decide on any given day, which of these three I'd want to be a member.  Today, I'll take YH... 

[Andy Mitchell]

RJ, I agree with you on the 11th at BB.  That is by far the best green complex on the entire course.  I wish a few of the others had more character like this.  Just my humble opinion.  Its still a really cool course though...   

Pat, while attending C of C about 10 years ago, I played the Charleston Muni course 2 or 3 times a week.  Just like any Muni, this course gets an unbelievable amount of play, thus the condition of the course is usually pretty poor.  In my opinion, the front nine is very well laid out, but the back nine layout suffers because it is split by Maybank Hwy.  Over the years many of the bunkers and greens have lost their shape.  In addition, the trees lining the fairways have grown quite large.  Overall, its a fun little course and very inexpensive to play.  There is no telling how much better this course could be if some special attention were paid to it.

Has anyone else played the Charleston Muni?

[John Shimp]

Andy
I used to play a jr event at the muni called the al esposito. Front was always a good challenge.
When I drive by now it looks like the features that were left have been pounded flat into the flat ground from over use and neglect.

Also agree on bulls bay, great place, visually stunning but not real interesting to play.  Can swing away with no restraint or thought and the greens are weak. Some attractive shots and beautiful vistas. To me this is strantz golf.  The best part is looking at it.

[Chip Gaskins]

Dick

I agree that Bulls Bay is a really cool place and the whole land plan is very unique in a very great way.  I also think there are several green that are very interesting, like #7, #11, and #12, however for all the boldness off the tee the greens are not in that same spirit.  Again a very very cool place and one that I would enjoy playing many times.

If I had to divide 10 rounds between Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston I would go 7 to 3 favoring CC of Charleston.  Just a more comfortable feeling there to me....

Chip

[JC Jones]

Chip,

Maybe you missed my post above.  Can you elaborate on the CCofC greens vs the Yeamans Hall greens?  Also, is CCofC better from an architecture standpoint or a ambiance/vibe standpoint?

[Ed Oden]

If I had to divide 10 rounds between Yeamans Hall and CC of Charleston I would go 7 to 3 favoring CC of Charleston.  Just a more comfortable feeling there to me....

Chip, I've seen a number of other posters at varying times express similar sentiments favoring CofC over Yeamans.  That's a head scratcher for me.  While I always enjoy CofC, Yeamans seems to me to be clearly superior from an architectural standpoint.  I just don't see the consistent quality of holes at CofC that I see at Yeamans.  For me, CofC's appeal lies in a handful of unique features that I haven't really seen elsewhere and a few other very good holes.  But there are too many pedestrian holes for me to elevate it above Yeamans.  So I would be interested in hearing why you feel differently.  Thanks in advance!

Ed

[Andy Mitchell]

See below link.  Some pretty good pictures of Bulls Bay.  As you can see from the pics, the course is very visually impressive.

http://www.golfarchitecturepictures.com/Web%20Galleries/USA/S%20Carolina/Bulls%20Bay/index.html

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