[John Kavanaugh]

John, Your comment doesn't seem to make sense to me because there have been a couple of greens at SH that needed softening since the first year.
What was this restraint and where have they gotten away from it?

Adam,

I did not know that any greens at Sand Hills had been softened.  In comparison I am most familiar with the C&C greens at Bandon Trails where I found many more internal contours then at Sand Hills.  The thing I loved about the greens at Sand Hills is that they looked like they could have been a natural result of wind or water erosion where the greens at Bandon Trails look like the result of an earthquake.

[Tom_Doak]

Adam: I would suggest that there is no such thing as the perfect golf course and there are some changes which an architect would make after a few years of play to any design - I'm not saying anything major but just a tweak - like softening a green, moving a bunker, adding a tee box, etc. 

I think the comparison with JN has been done already and is not nearly as subtle or interesting as C & C versus Doak.  I have no idea how Ballyneal would be different if Jim Urbina had worked on it - do you?

As Tom Paul says, it is very hard to answer questions like this, because in the end, I don't think any of you really understand how fleeting design can be.  It's made out to be a complicated process, but part of that process is inspiration, and inspiration is a moment.  I change my mind all the time when I'm out on site, based on what my associates have been working on and looking at, reacting to what we have built already, and what the client has said, and perhaps even my own mood.

People ask whether with the benefit of hindsight, I might build a different hole now than I did ten or twenty years ago.  Heck, I might build a completely different hole in Florida next week than I did last week.  But, that is also why I am less likely than most people to second-guess my own designs ... because I know that any new idea is just as fleeting as the old one.  So as long as the original design is working, there is nothing to fix.

As to our work changing generally over time, I think it's almost inevitable that most architects' work gets a bit more conservative over time, as more attention is paid and more money is at stake and as clients think they know what we will do.  I've tried to fight that tendency inside myself, as much as anyone can.

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: I surely would not consider Old Mac to be "conservative."  By that I do not mean it is radical, but it to call it conservative would be a disservice. especially the greens.

[Adam Clayman]

John, Your comment doesn't seem to make sense to me because there have been a couple of greens at SH that needed softening since the first year.
What was this restraint and where have they gotten away from it?

Adam,

I did not know that any greens at Sand Hills had been softened.  In comparison I am most familiar with the C&C greens at Bandon Trails where I found many more internal contours then at Sand Hills.  The thing I loved about the greens at Sand Hills is that they looked like they could have been a natural result of wind or water erosion where the greens at Bandon Trails look like the result of an earthquake.

Wouldn't those differences sum up the nature of both sites? The SH being created by wind and water erosion, where the left coast was created by plate tectonics.

Jerry, Jim's the only one who would know that, and something tells me he would never say.

[David_Elvins]

David, those C&C holes/greens don't look much like say Austin Golf Club or Friars Head at all, so I'm thinking their approach is more site-dependent - which I think would be true of almost any architect.

What I like most about both Doak and C&C courses is that neither team forces holes onto the site, but adapt to what's there to start with.

Agreed Bill,  It seems to me that both architects have a lot of variety in their body of work.  I am just trying top point out a design tendency on contoured sites that IMO creates a point of difference between the two designers.  

Here is a hole over realatively flat ground with a ridge of dunes at the end to the right.  The green is built up into the dunes.  Can you tell who is more likely to have designed it?  


Here is a hole on relatively flat ground with a dune structure at the end to the left.  Can you tell who is more likely to design it?  


IMO, if Doak was building this hole, he would be more likely to position the green back and left, tied into the dunes/ridge more.  


I don't think either designer is cliched, however I think that these photos illustrate a difference between how Doak and C&C like to position greens, which is at the heart of the opening post, "how would C&C differ in building a course than Doak?"

[Tom_Doak]

David,

In Florida, I have not noticed that Bill tends to keep his green sites any further away from the dunes than I do.  I will think about it some more, though.

The true main difference between our styles is that Bill tends to build his greens out of fill -- so he will choose a lower green site, and build it up -- whereas I tend to build mine from existing material, so I need to find a site a bit higher up (and sometimes, perhaps, a bit further back into the dunes). 

[TEPaul]

"The true main difference between our styles is that Bill tends to build his greens out of fill..."


TomD:

Is that right? Interesting; I wouldn't have automatically suspected that, but I've never actually looked for it specifically either. I guess in retrospect the course I looked at most carefully with that in mind was Sand Hills and that one probably isn't representative for a number of reasons.

[Don_Mahaffey]

...In all honesty, the work of Tom Doak in the early 90's would not have boded well at Sand Hills.  I would however love to see what he could do today.

Bullshit. A young TD would have built great greens. I think we should promote a youth movement among Architects and Pros just like they do in regards to Superintendents. 25 years of experience just makes you lazy and play it safe. Right now I'll bet there's a 25 year old road builder that could kick your ass. 

[Tom_Doak]

Don / John

Even the young Tom Doak could see that there were a dozen greens at Sand Hills where you didn't have to build anything at all.  In fact, that's exactly what I saw, as described above.  So I think my version of Sand Hills probably would have turned out all right.

My overall approach, and particularly the amount of talent my company can bring to bear on a given site, may be a bit better today.  But, as Don says, there is something to be said for youth, which is why I didn't invite anyone to Archipalooza who was over 50.  Now that I am 49 I may have to bend the rules a bit for the next edition.

[TEPaul]

Don Mahaffey:

I second your first sentence (Bullshit) in your Post #32.

My sense has always been that Kavanaugh may have one of the most imaginative and entertaining minds out there but like all good things that also brings a pretty good slice of Bullshit along with it too.

[John Kavanaugh]

...In all honesty, the work of Tom Doak in the early 90's would not have boded well at Sand Hills.  I would however love to see what he could do today.

Bullshit. A young TD would have built great greens. I think we should promote a youth movement among Architects and Pros just like they do in regards to Superintendents. 25 years of experience just makes you lazy and play it safe. Right now I'll bet there's a 25 year old road builder that could kick your ass. 

Don,

A 25 year old road builder can not get proper bonding to even enter the ring.  An architect with 25 years experience is far too hungry today to be lazy and expect to see his 26th year.  Tom Doak built Quail Crossing five years after Sand Hills opened, I doubt he was ready for the most important project of the modern age five years prior.

God gives young men stiff dicks to keep them distracted from matters beyond their reach.   

[JC Jones]

John K,

Have you played High Pointe?

[David_Elvins]

I doubt he was ready for the most important project of the modern age five years prior.

John,

Good to see you are back in fine form.  What experience made Coore and Crenshaw ready for the most important project of the modern age? 

[TEPaul]

"John K,
Have you played High Pointe?"


JC:

That's probably not the appropriate question.

[Steve Okula]

...In all honesty, the work of Tom Doak in the early 90's would not have boded well at Sand Hills.  I would however love to see what he could do today.

Bullshit. A young TD would have built great greens. I think we should promote a youth movement among Architects and Pros just like they do in regards to Superintendents. 25 years of experience just makes you lazy and play it safe. Right now I'll bet there's a 25 year old road builder that could kick your ass. 

Which architects' body of works bcame worse as they got older?

[JC Jones]

"John K,
Have you played High Pointe?"


JC:

That's probably not the appropriate question.

You're right, Tom; but it is AN appropriate question.  The answer to which will lead to another appropriate question. 

[John Kavanaugh]

JC,

I don't know if it was devine intervention or genius that led to Dick Youngscap to choose C&C to design Sand Hills.  I do know it was not blind luck.

Please don't waste my time asking me questions where you know the answer and have the next question in mind.  Ask the last question first and perhaps we can all learn something instead of destroying another great thread.     

[JC Jones]

JC,

I don't know if it was devine intervention or genius that led to Dick Youngscap to choose C&C to design Sand Hills.  I do know it was not blind luck.

Please don't waste my time asking me questions where you know the answer and have the next question in mind.  Ask the last question first and perhaps we can all learn something instead of destroying another great thread.    

If it is a waste of your time then don't respond.  As far as me knowing the answer, how would I have a clue whether you've played there or not?  You can't ask the last question until you know the answer to the first one.  Destroying the thread would be you getting unnecessarily upset over a harmless question.  I do appreciate your attempt to place the destruction of this thread on my innocent question and not your bullshit statement.

I shall assume you haven't otherwise you would have just answered the question.  Tom D may have built Quail Crossing 5 years later but he also built Pacific Dunes 2 years after QC.  Did something happen between QC and PD that all of a sudden made him a phenomenal architect?  It is unlikely.  I am speculating now but perhaps Tom D was operating with the restraint of client requests when he built some of the mediocre courses?  Maybe not.  But his first course, that he made when he was 26 (and drove the bulldozer himself), has some of the most imaginative greens I've seen.  In fact, I would argue that the 8th green on High Pointe is more wild than anything at Pacific Dunes.  To your point, neither you nor anyone besides Tom D knows what he would or could have produced at Sand Hills and the fact that Tom D has some mediocre courses on his resume has nothing to do with anything.

[Don_Mahaffey]

...In all honesty, the work of Tom Doak in the early 90's would not have boded well at Sand Hills.  I would however love to see what he could do today.

Bullshit. A young TD would have built great greens. I think we should promote a youth movement among Architects and Pros just like they do in regards to Superintendents. 25 years of experience just makes you lazy and play it safe. Right now I'll bet there's a 25 year old road builder that could kick your ass. 

Which architects' body of works became worse as they got older?

Steve, My comments were made mostly in fun but I did see an opportunity to point out the absurdness of selecting a professional for a position, or commission, based on age, not talent and/or previous results. Many architects here have let it slip, Tom is one, about the preference of hiring the "young" superintendent. I think it better to hire the best super available, just as it would be when hiring a golf pro, designer, or road builder.

[Ben Sims]

...In all honesty, the work of Tom Doak in the early 90's would not have boded well at Sand Hills.  I would however love to see what he could do today.

I think we should promote a youth movement among Architects and Pros just like they do in regards to Superintendents. 25 years of experience just makes you lazy and play it safe.

Let the record reflect that Don practices what he preaches in regards to the post above.  Tom Doak has offered the same.  It's a tough business, and no one makes it on their own in maintaining a surface or moving dirt.  I met two of Gil's young guys at Friars Head.  Bright eyes and clear intent.  We need more of that.  

Don literally let me mow 17 of the most intricate greens I've ever seen without me ever having touched turf equipment.  Either he has huge nuts, or he thought I wouldn't muck it up.  There's a lot more to grass than mowing it, but it's an experience that I needed.

So I have to disagree with Mr. Kavanaugh.  On the experience vs. ambition curve, there is an equilibrium point.  Some reach it earlier than others.  

[John Kavanaugh]

JC,

I don't know if it was devine intervention or genius that led to Dick Youngscap to choose C&C to design Sand Hills.  I do know it was not blind luck.

Please don't waste my time asking me questions where you know the answer and have the next question in mind.  Ask the last question first and perhaps we can all learn something instead of destroying another great thread.    

If it is a waste of your time then don't respond.  As far as me knowing the answer, how would I have a clue whether you've played there or not?  You can't ask the last question until you know the answer to the first one.  Destroying the thread would be you getting unnecessarily upset over a harmless question.  I do appreciate your attempt to place the destruction of this thread on my innocent question and not your bullshit statement.

I shall assume you haven't otherwise you would have just answered the question.  Tom D may have built Quail Crossing 5 years later but he also built Pacific Dunes 2 years after QC.  Did something happen between QC and PD that all of a sudden made him a phenomenal architect?  It is unlikely.  I am speculating now but perhaps Tom D was operating with the restraint of client requests when he built some of the mediocre courses?  Maybe not.  But his first course, that he made when he was 26 (and drove the bulldozer himself), has some of the most imaginative greens I've seen.  In fact, I would argue that the 8th green on High Pointe is more wild than anything at Pacific Dunes.  To your point, neither you nor anyone besides Tom D knows what he would or could have produced at Sand Hills and the fact that Tom D has some mediocre courses on his resume has nothing to do with anything.

Would you be surprised to learn that after Quail Crossing Doak no longer shaped greens himself.  I love the couture created on Project Runway but wouldn't wear it to an Inauguration.  Sometimes the finest designer is not the best seamstress.  It takes a certain level of maturity to step back and let others sculpt your vision.

I hire young people myself most often because they are cheaper and stronger.     

[JC Jones]

John,

So, are you saying there is a direct correlation between Tom Doak's success and his stepping off the bulldozer?  That certainly wouldn't explain the wild and fun greens at High Pointe, nor would it explain what many think to be one of his great talents, routing the golf course.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

So, are you saying there is a direct correlation between Tom Doak's success and his stepping off the bulldozer?  That certainly wouldn't explain the wild and fun greens at High Pointe, nor would it explain what many think to be one of his great talents, routing the golf course.

Yes.

[Tom_Doak]

John,

Interesting theory, except that I only shaped a small handful of the greens at Quail Crossing.  Jim Urbina shaped most of them, and Bruce Hepner did a couple, if I recall correctly.  The ones I remember working on myself are 12, 15 and 16.

The main difference between Quail Crossing and my other work is that Quail Crossing was built in heavy clay.  It took me several tries (and a lot more help) to do really good work in that milieu.

 

[Mike_Young]

If you hire passion you will take care of any age issues....I think many people in many fields lose their passion for what they do and that brings people to question the age factor....
Don mentions that some on here speak of hiring younger supts....I don't know...I just want a supt that gets it and age is not the factor....
Happy Thanksgiving

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