Reverse Biarritz?

[Scott Warren]

Forgive me a half-baked thought, but I just saw the below photo that Joe Bausch took at Twisted Dune and I loved the look of the green.

It made me wonder if anyone has ever built a reverse Biarritz green - ie. one with a very steep and bold "speedbump" in place of the swale?

[Dale Jackson]

Scott, there is an architect in Canada, Les Furber, who has made his career building greens like this.  The angle to play differs from hole to hole - some run perpendicular, some parallel and some diagonally - but he is in love with that type of construction, he must have built dozens, maybe hundreds like that.  Some work, some not.

Obviously it is only the parallel greens that work as a "reverse biarritz".

[Eric Smith]

Scott,

Here's a thread of interest: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,23492.msg431157/#msg431157

[Ed Oden]

Well, my personal favorite of the reverse biarritz genre would have to be the 18th hole at The Recession Club ("Double Dip")... http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,44273.0/

[Scott Warren]

Eric:

Thanks. Can you believe I chose the exact same thread title and stole the OP's description of a "speedbump" in place of a swale...

Truly, nothing is original in this world!

[Eric Smith]

Eric:

Thanks. Can you believe I chose the exact same thread title and stole the OP's description of a "speedbump" in place of a swale...

Truly, nothing is original in this world!

Just call me Kenny Lee.

KLP

[Sean_A]

I think folks can make out the raised nature of the middle of the green in these two pix.  Perhaps the difference between this and B is the middle is pinnable.  Is this what you ahd in mind Scott?  



Ciao

[Scott Warren]

Sean, I was thinking the "speedbump" wouldn't be pinnable, but that is a great-looking green.

Not playing Beau Desert when I had the chance is one of my major regrets of the past two years.

[Alex Miller]

I don't necessarily think the "reverse biarritz" looks that amazing, but I'll tell you why I think it's far inferior to the traditional biarritz.

The great part about the biarritz is the suspense and drama provided by the swale. If running it through as intended, you lose sight of your ball and hope to see it reappear. Being able to see, or at least having the anticipation of seeing your ball come up through onto the back tier exemplifies an ideal of good architecture that many here preach: that some of the best architecture produces the drama of watching/waiting for your ball to come to rest.

With the reverse biarritz, you get almost none of this benefit. If the pin is in back so the speed bump is in play, then you can't even see the ball finish. And while blind shots are fine and good, I have to think there are better ways to have a blind approach. I'd rather have the land force a blind approach than create one with an engineered speed bump. That's my $.02

[Jay Cox]

Another downside to the reverse Biarritz:  It takes a lot of luck to stop a running shot after it goes over the hump, because the ball will pick up speed on the downslope, so while a Biarritz encourages the player to land the ball on the front tier and run it to the back, the reverse Biarritz seems like it would encourage if not require an aerial shot flying to the back tier.  There's nothing wrong with that -- but it's not as exciting or unique a strategic problem as the regular Biarritz presents, so I wouldn't want to copy it ad nauseum.

[Sean_A]

Scott

I spose the middle tier would have to be much narrower and perhaps steeper to meet your criteria.  The two concepts while similar are still sufficiently distinguished from each that it would be interesting to see both on a course. 

Alex

One could also argue that when the pin is in the middle or back (as is the case at Beau Desert) the suspense of knowing what happened to your shot is prolonged, but we almost always have a clue if one knows the hole.  The shot is blind to the middle and rear because of the uphill nature of the approach.  Of course, Fowler could have built yet another standard back to front green which offers a much better view of the putting surface, but why bother if the green site is a natural plateau?

Jay

Regardless if a B or Reverse B, the green needs to be firm to encourage a running shot.  Otherwise, in both cases it is best to fly the ball.  The one advantage I can see with Beau Desert's RB is that one must earn position to attempt a runner, but that has to do with being a par 4. 

Ciao

[Jim_Kennedy]

I know, it's an old thread and a well-worn topic, but I couldn't resist posting this photo.

A real "Deal" reverse Biarritz:
 
Click twice for BIG

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pebble Beach 17 might be considered a sideways reverse Biarritz, if you want to use that term.

To me, the true reverse green would have a middle plateau at least 10 feet wide on top to set pins.  Actually, since JN once said he wouldn't aim for a target less than 40 foot around, it might have to be that wide for golfers to actually try to hit it.  In reality, it would be seen as goofy golf.  Nor, would it look particularly natural, IMHO. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
Like the example that Sean posted of Beau Desert? Granted, the raised middle isn't as pronounced as a 'standard' Biarritz swale, but the green doesn't look unnatural, and how many pins are ever placed in the swale?

[Alister Matheson]

The best example of  Reverse Biarritz would have to be the 4th Green at Royal Dornoch .

[paul cowley]

I built a true reverse biarritz on a course that's struggling to be Still In Existence...closed, waiting for an Opener...Ricefields, south of Savannah. #15 is double plateau green separated in the middle by a pinnable (1 wide) 3' high flat ridge center ridge that was created as an extension of a faux ricefield dyke.

 It's probably the reason for the courses closing...that, or the fact that it might be the inverse terminus of a Polar Vortex. A tough call IMO