HJ Tweedie

[TEPaul]

Mr. Jeffrey:

On #1---I am.

On #2, anyone who is actually serious about seeing or researching Myopia can definitely do both. From this website all they really need to do is contact me and I will make it happen for them if they are serious in their purpose which some on here clearly appear NOT TO  BE! 

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
Have you ever seen any contemporaneous schematics of Myopia circa 1900?

[TEPaul]

"TEP
Have you ever seen any contemporaneous schematics of Myopia circa 1900?"





Tom MacWood:

Yes, everything Myopia has or is aware of or everything else that anyone I've ever heard of, including you, knows is extant.

How about you, Tom MacWood?  

I asked you a number of times if you could explain where those original nine holes of 1894 were or what their sequence and progression was but you never answered. Why is that? Would you like to give answering that question a shot now?  

Personally, I'd just expect you to ignore and avoid that question, as you always have. I wonder why?  Would it have anything to do with your lack of famiarity with Myopia?  Would you like me to line up a tour of the course for you or is that too difficult for you to figure out how to do and/or do too?   

[Tom MacWood]

"TEP
Have you ever seen any contemporaneous schematics of Myopia circa 1900?"





Tom MacWood:

Yes, everything Myopia has or is aware of or everything else that anyone I've ever heard of, including you, knows is extant.

How about you, Tom MacWood?  

I asked you a number of times if you could explain where those original nine holes of 1894 were or what their sequence and progression was but you never answered. Why was that? Would you like to give answering that question a shot now?  

Personally, I'd just expect you to ignore and avoid that question, as you always have. I wonder why?  Would it have anything to do with lack of famiarity with Myopia?   

Don't change the subject. What was the year and source of the old schematic you've seen.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
What is the year of that map? I'm no expert on the history CC of AC, but the 1899 Golf Guide said the 18-hole course at AC was laid out by Tweedie & Reid. When did the 9-hole course become 18, and when did Tweedie become involved?

[TEPaul]

Don't change the subject. What was the year and source of the old schematic you've seen.  
 



Tom MacWood:

I've got a ton of material here. What is it you are looking to know or learn? Be specific.

If you are looking to learn where the original 1894 course's sequence or progression was I've told you a number of times I'd try to explain to you where it was as long as you try to tell me where you think it was first so I can quite simply determine what you know or don't know about Myopia's early architectural history. I've asked you that a number of times and you've just ignored the question every time. I suspect it's because you have no idea.

As I think you realize, I'm more than willing to help you out on various research to do with Myopia but you're gonna need to at least meet me half way first and to date you're not real good at that.

Are you ever gonna get better at that or is all this place worth to you is some forum for you to try to prove you research GCA better than others do on here?  

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
It is a simple question. You are claiming the 1890s Myopia did not have geometric hazards. What is the year of the map you are referring to and what is the source?

[TEPaul]

"TEP
It is a simple question. You are claiming the 1890s Myopia did not have geometric hazards. What is the year map you are referring to and what is the source?"





Tom MacWood:

Let's try to make this as simple and clear as it should be. Before I even begin to answer you let me see you actually find and quote what I have ACTUALLY said about Myopia and the history of its architecture rather than have you try to put into my mouth or my statements what you THINK I've said or claimed about it?

Are you willing to do that and if not then WHY not?

I think too many on here have grown tired of watching you fail to engage intelligently on this website with your endless deflective and diversonary questions.

I'd be happy to try to explain to you anything about Myopia's architectural history and what my source and research material is but first I want you to answer a question for me.

Are you willing to do that because that is where this will need to start? 

[TEPaul]

"What is the year of that map? I'm no expert on the history CC of AC, but the 1899 Golf Guide said the 18-hole course at AC was laid out by Tweedie & Reid. When did the 9-hole course become 18, and when did Tweedie become involved?"



Tom MacWood:

You're not??

In that case would you at least be willing to stipulate that you might be willing to listen to someone who is an expert on the history of ACCC or CC of AC or is that too much to ask of you?  

I very much doubt Cirba or anyone else I'm aware of on here is the ultimate expert on the history of ACCC. Have you ever heard of the Fraziers? If not, I think I can guarantee you that they are the best experts on the entire history of ACCC for pretty obvious reasons. Frankly, you are such a general pain-in-the-ass on here it would probably be poetic justice for me to sick Doug Frazier on you. That would definitely fix your bucket in every imaginable and important way!!  

But for now you should know that that original nine as exhibited above is long, long gone, sold off years ago and no longer part of the course or ACCC property. So much for H.J. Tweedie's ACCC.  Oh well, whatta ya gonna do?
 
 

[Tom MacWood]

"What golf architect in American did not use geometric features in the 1890s?"


Herbert Corey Leeds

And thankfully his 1890s product to that affect is still pretty much all there for us to see---at least those of us who are actually willing to make the effort to actually go to Myopia to see it! 

TEP
Here is your quote, and I believe you are wrong.

[Tom MacWood]

Could someone please post an image for me? I'll email it to you. I'd like to get this thread back to Tweedie.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

I believe the map is from 1898...I'm not at home for the next few days and don't have computer access or access to my files.

My understanding, which I am not certain of, is that Reid expanded the course to 18 holes shortly after it opened.

I don't believe Tweedie was involved in the expansion.

Perhaps Joe Bausch knows more?

[TEPaul]

"TEP
Here is your quote, and I believe you are wrong."


Tom MacWood:

Yes, I understand what you said that you believe I am wrong but my point is you would have no way of knowing since you've never been there. That is the point; it has always been the point with what you've said about Myopia (and some other courses you've never been to or seen) and no matter how many times you try to avoid it, it will always be the point. One can never really understand any subject thoroughly unless and until one actually goes to the subject and researches and studies it. I've never understood why you either can't understand that or why you constantly fail to admit it.


And as far as getting back to Tweedie, yes, I'm sure you would rather do that than discuss the architecture of Myopia in the 1890s and early 1900s. As for images, what do you think of the image of Tweedie's nine at ACCC that Mike Cirba posted FOR YOU? It's interesting how you seem to be avoiding and ignoring the obviousness of that particular style too. It just didn't get much more rudimentary and steeplechasish than THAT! But who knows, maybe Tweedie was only there for a day or so and therefore maybe we shouldn't hold him responsible for it. Why don't we just blame it all on John Reid who was also the greenkeeper there?

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

That nine hole ACCC routing you posted is from 1898. It's the original Reid/Tweedie(?) nine. Some time later Reid added a second nine and then some years after that Willie Park Jr added a third nine. In 1924 the entire thing was redesigned by Flynn. A part of the 27 hole course was sold off in the 1950s by Leo Fraser. Maybe fifteen years ago the Frasers sold the club to Baly/Hilton and just after that there was a Doak restoration. A few years ago Baly/Hilton sold it again, perhaps to Marriott. It's now essentially a public golf club but it does have a helluva long and interesting history.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

yes, it is from 1898, but I think that there is some question as to whether Reid was involved in the laying out of the course. I base this upon the following article from the February 1898 issue of GOLF magazine. This article describes this new layout and quotes Tweedie as saying that he laid out the course without any mention of Reid. This article is important because it was written and published before the course opened for play. You'll notice the same drawing is used with the exception of orientation:

[Joe Bausch]

Could someone please post an image for me? I'll email it to you. I'd like to get this thread back to Tweedie.

[DMoriarty]

I believe that image is from 1902, is it not?   TEPaul claims to have seen a schematic from the 1890's.

Also, it is tough to tell, but there appear to be at least some "geometric" features and/or cross bunkers in that diagram.   Plus, didn't early Myopia have a number of hazards that we would now consider "dark ages" such as a number of "cop" hazards in the form of large rock wall fences (I believe those may be represented by the solid lines) and roads?   (Doesn't it still play over at least one road?)

NOTE TO EVERYONE:   It is very helpful and good form if these things are at least identified by date and preferably by source.  Otherwise they can be pretty misleading.   Thanks.

[TEPaul]

Philip:

I think you are likely to run into the same mistakes of logic others on here have in the past when you only take a single article like that one and then begin to assume that Reid was not involved simply because he was not mentioned in that particular article when the reporter said Tweedie wrote him about ACCC.

I should remind you that Harper's Golf Guide in 1899 listed ACCC as laid out by Tweedie and Reid. Obviously to compile those comprehensive course listings in Harpers the magazine had to ask the clubs themselves for information on their clubs and courses and considering that ACCC was begun a mere two years previous to the Harper's listing I think we can be fairly sure the club in offering the magazine their information on the course knew what they were talking about.

We also know where Reid was both before and when he came to ACCC and that should probably corroborate his presence at ACCC. Also, as far as I know, the club itself has always assumed that John Reid laid out the original course. If the club has been aware Tweedie was part of it, I have not heard that until reading it in that Harper's magazine of 1899 which again was published only a year or so after the course was first begun and from where the information on the course came to the magazine pretty much had to have been from the club itself.

[TEPaul]

Since the beginning of golf at Myopia Hunt club in 1894 the club has essentially had three golf course iterations:

1. The original 1894 nine.
2. The so-called "Long Nine" that was begun in 1896 and used for the 1898 US Open.
3. The eighteen hole course begun in 1898-99 (shown in that plan above) that was used for the 1901, 1906 and 1908 US Opens and happens to be remarkably similar to the course as it exists today.

There are no real unanswered architectural questions today about the "Long Nine" or the eighteen hole course shown above but there are a few about some of the holes of the original 1894 nine hole course.

[Joe Bausch]

Just found a good resolution version of the Myopia links course prior to the 1901 US Open.  I'll post it resized, then full sized below where the blue slide bar is needed.  This from the June 13, 1901 edition of the Evening Telegram.

[TEPaul]

Joe:

That Evening Telegram drawing of Myopia is about as representative of the course as a three year old's first depiction of a tree. I guess they just found someone in the copyroom who could manage a ruler and a fairly straight line!!  

Frankly, the same may be said for that 1898 drawing of the original nine of ACCC.

Thank God for copy machine but no such animal existed in 1898 or 1901, that's for sure.

Myopia did have some cross hazards---eg about 8-10 in all originally (probably about the same amount as NGLA or even Pine Valley. Many were removed in what I refer to as the "sleepy" era of the course and club. The man who was responsible for removing most of them probably back in the 1950s was Bobby Knowles, a really good tournament golfer (Walker Cupper) and a good friend of my father's. But most of them are back now and have been for about 10-15 years. That was the same time they removed a massive amount of trees from some of the interior holes. Some cross-bunkers were never removed. Some are partial and actually play quite strategically if one wants to avoid them or take them on. A few, particularly #7 and #15 will probably never be restored because due to distance considerations today they can not get them in the right place to make much sense.

By the way, Gil Hanse and the club expanded a bunch of the fairways back out this fall and they really look good.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

I looked it up because you were unsure as Tweedie's Involvement. This is what you wrote:

"That nine hole ACCC routing you posted is from 1898. It's the original Reid/Tweedie(?) nine..." If you were sure, why would you put a question mark after Tweedie's name?

Actually I have a copy of the 1899 Harper's with tyhe reference to both Tweedie and Reid. What I find interesting is that Tweedie is mentioned in the two sources where Reid is only in Harper's, especially as the first source, the GOLF magazine article was based upon a diretc interview with Tweedie and yet there is no mention of Reid. I am wondering then if there is at least another, second Reid attribution as there is with Tweedie.

[TEPaul]

I put a question mark in parents next to Tweedie's name only because before a few days ago I have never heard Tweedie's name connected to ACCC. But this information on this thread and in Harper's obviously confirms it.

As for Reid, I think it's pretty well established that he came to ACCC originally to do the golf course and he is in Harper's that was only a year later. He also stayed as their greenkeeper and probably their pro. John Reid was a real journeyman around here. He was even with Gulph Mills around 1920 as their greenkeeper and pro.

But frankly, I'm not all that interested in debating this point endlessly like that Shawnee/Tillie/Worthington thread because in my opinion, Flynn so redesigned the whole place in 1924 that I consider the golf course to be a William Flynn and not a Tweedie or Reid/Tweedie. It's probably just as much a Willie Park Jr as a Tweedie or Tweedie/Reid.

This is why I'm actually so much more interested in courses from back in that early era like GCGC or NGLA and certainly Myopia because they are pretty pure----they never changed much over the years, Thank God.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe:

That Evening Telegram drawing of Myopia is about as representative of the course as a three year old's first depiction of a tree. I guess they just found someone in the copyroom who could manage a ruler and a fairly straight line!!  

Just the other day my Department was interviewing a faculty candidate, a non-sports fan, and when she saw on my office door the Philly Inky cover from 2008 showing Brad Lidge greeting Chooch Ruiz at the mound celebrating the World Series title, she commented how neat the pic was but knows nothing about baseball.

I informed her that a friend of mine, very experienced, told me to not believe what newspapers wrote.  Well, she was shocked, sort of like I was the first time you told me this Tom, and not unlike my older brother telling me there wasn't a Santa Claus.

I told her that I called the Phillies PR Department and they told me that the Washington Senators in fact won the title in 2008.  She was happy to hear that as, being from DC, her father talked about his teenage memories of watching the Senators play and how fitting it was they finally won a title.

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[TEPaul]

Damn-it Joe, get over this stuff; you should have listened to your brother---there really isn't a Santa Claus! It was all just a big commercial invention, although I'm not that sure who invented it in the first place----the Germans, the Dutch, the English, the Scots or perhaps even Macdonald and Whigam with a little help and advice from HH Barker and H.J. Tweedie.