[Matt_Ward]

As most know I am not a big time fan of FL golf but I did get the opportunity to once again play The Champ at PGA National.

Have to say the final four holes are among the best you can play in FL or frankly just about anywhere else -- especially given the flat terrain involved.

Maybe someone can highlight a better combination of holes for a closing four-hole finish in The Sunshine State but The Champ, for me and my group of guys, is just top shelf stuff.

The two par-3's require pinpoint playand the varying tee lengths can make the hole more / less as needed for the groups of players playing them. The par-4 16th often goes underappreciated by a great many people.

The Bear Trap routinely works over the best players in the world -- and the par-5 closing hole may be one of the toughest three-shot holes anywhere you can play.

Amazingly, the course is rarely discussed at length here or elsewhere.

[Sean Leary]

TPC Sawgrass is better.

[Matt_Ward]

Sean:

How do you figure that ?

The par-5 at The Champ is easily better than the 16th at TPC.

The par-4 15th at TPC is not better than the par-4 16th at The Champ.

I can easily put either the 15th or 17th at The Champ as being equal or better than the 17th at TPC.

Since TPC has two par-4's in the mix -- the 18th at TPC is clearly a better hole.

Put it all together -- The Champ has the edge -- albeit a slight one -- but an edge in my mind.

Let me also say this -- if TPC is highly regarded as a design -- I see no reason why The Champ is not rated among FL's best.

[Adam Clayman]

Difficulty is not quality.

[JC Jones]

15-18 at Seminole.

[Jim Briggs]

Amazingly, the course is rarely discussed at length here or elsewhere.

Didn't you have this conversation about the bear trap 8 months ago?

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,43473.0/

[Jason Topp]

I don't have pictures but I think the finish at Fiddlesticks Long Mean is very good:

15 - 400 yard dogleg right around a lake with a wide fairway but hugging the right side of the fairway yields a 100 yard wedge to a small green.  Bailing out left can leave 200 yards to the same small green with water right and bunker left.

16 - 440 yards into the wind with water right.  Fairway is 60 yards wide but bailing out left off the tee makes it pretty much impossible to reach the green in 2.

17 - 175 to a small gren angled right to left with dunesy sand surrounding the green.

18 - short par 5 with 60 yard wide fairway off the tee that tightens at the spot of a safe layup.  I usually have to hit a hybrid over the tight spot or else lay up with a 130 yard shot.  Green is huge but on an island and surrounded by bunkers.

[Anthony Gray]

TPC Sawgrass is better.

  This is hard to beat in all the world.May not match the drama of the bear trap but you have some architecture that is being duplicated which speaks greatness.

  Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

I have a feeling that Bill Coore will have a horse in this race by this time next year.  His five finishing holes at Mosaic are about as dramatic as they come.  Ours are pretty cool, too (and really long:  the last four are 450, 235, 650, and 480 yards), but we don't have any twenty foot deep trench bunkers.

[Adam Clayman]

TPC Sawgrass is better.

  This is hard to beat in all the world.May not match the drama of the bear trap but you have some architecture that is being duplicated which speaks greatness.

  Anthony

Anthony, Flattery, yes, guaranteed greatness? Maybe.

The difference between requiring pinpoint accuracy and quality is the thoughtfulness in both, by design, and by the player. The player at Sawgrass needs to think and execute within a reasonable variance, to score well. From Matt's description, the pinpoint accuracy needed at the bear trap, only requires the execution to be perfect. 

[Alex Miller]

I have a feeling that Bill Coore will have a horse in this race by this time next year.  His five finishing holes at Mosaic are about as dramatic as they come.  Ours are pretty cool, too (and really long:  the last four are 450, 235, 650, and 480 yards), but we don't have any twenty foot deep trench bunkers.

Tom,

Are you collaborating with Jack Nicklaus without telling us?  I've never seen yardages quite like that on one of your courses, at least not for four holes in a row. If you're trying to intrigue us it is likely working.

[Greg Tallman]

I don't have pictures but I think the finish at Fiddlesticks Long Mean is very good:

15 - 400 yard dogleg right around a lake with a wide fairway but hugging the right side of the fairway yields a 100 yard wedge to a small green.  Bailing out left can leave 200 yards to the same small green with water right and bunker left.

16 - 440 yards into the wind with water right.  Fairway is 60 yards wide but bailing out left off the tee makes it pretty much impossible to reach the green in 2.

17 - 175 to a small gren angled right to left with dunesy sand surrounding the green.

18 - short par 5 with 60 yard wide fairway off the tee that tightens at the spot of a safe layup.  I usually have to hit a hybrid over the tight spot or else lay up with a 130 yard shot.  Green is huge but on an island and surrounded by bunkers.

Had forgotten how good Long Mean really is, easily Garl's best offering. 17 is a bit boring in this mix but 15 and 16 are strong holes and 18 is a fun risk/reward finisher. Regular playing comanion used to knock it on 15 on ocassion while I am hitting 7 iron into the green on my second shot... not fair.

Worst gambling experience of my golfing life on back nine at Fiddle... Shoot 31 and lose about $1000 in horse... what a horrible game!

[Matt_Ward]

Adam:

The holes mentioned are quality -- I appreciate your predictable lamet that anytime you see one of my posts you automatically -- but always erronesouly -- believe that difficulty alone is being measured.

[Dave_Miller]

As most know I am not a big time fan of FL golf but I did get the opportunity to once again play The Champ at PGA National.

Have to say the final four holes are among the best you can play in FL or frankly just about anywhere else -- especially given the flat terrain involved.

Maybe someone can highlight a better combination of holes for a closing four-hole finish in The Sunshine State but The Champ, for me and my group of guys, is just top shelf stuff.

The two par-3's require pinpoint playand the varying tee lengths can make the hole more / less as needed for the groups of players playing them. The par-4 16th often goes underappreciated by a great many people.

The Bear Trap routinely works over the best players in the world -- and the par-5 closing hole may be one of the toughest three-shot holes anywhere you can play.

Amazingly, the course is rarely discussed at length here or elsewhere.

Matt
Agree about PGA National.  While i am not sure these are better the 16th, 17th, and 18th on the East Course at Admirals Cove are three great finishing holes.  Next time you go to aFlorida let me know I'll set it up.
Best
Dave

[J_ Crisham]

Dave,   Can you help me get on Admiral's Cove? ;)Hope to see you in February-have a good Thanksgiving,   Jack

[Adam Clayman]

Adam:

The holes mentioned are quality -- I appreciate your predictable lamet that anytime you see one of my posts you automatically -- but always erronesouly -- believe that difficulty alone is being measured.

Matt, I only have your adjectives and descriptions to render an opinion on your opinion. Here's a list of what I took from your original post. (This thread, not the one from 8 months ago)

The two par-3's require pinpoint play

The Bear Trap routinely works over the best players in the world -- and the par-5 closing hole may be one of the toughest three-shot holes anywhere you can play.

Now, unless there's a secret code to unlocking what you and your boys think is top shelf, what else is a reading person to think, you think? Without better descriptions and justifications for proclaiming greatness....

.... reading between the lines, it's not amazing at all it gets little air in here, if, 1) not many have played there. And, 2) not many think difficulty equates to greatness.

[David_Elvins]

Matt,

Did you really need the bit in brackets in the thread title?  Surely that is synonymous with Florida golf.

[JC Jones]

Matt,

Did you really need the bit in brackets in the thread title?  Surely that is synonymous with Florida golf.

David,

That is a fascinating point.  Do you mean to say that most Florida golf courses are formulaic?  I would have a tendency to agree.

[David_Elvins]

Do you mean to say that most Florida golf courses are formulaic? 

I haven't been there, but it seems that one of the trends to counter the flat sites in the era after the 2nd world war was to have very few holes of the same par in succession.  I don't know the stats but the par 5 16th, par 3 17th and par 4 18th, (as seen at Bay Hill and Sawgrass) seems like an often repeated theme.  Obviously there are a few variations on the theme but I would find it hard to believe that there is a course in florida (where most courses are built on flat sites after WWII) that doesn't have a par 3 and a par 5 in the last 4 holes. 

It is probably a sensible formula to follow on such sites. 

[Matt_Ward]

David E:

I have no idea on what the ending four holes may be for all of FL golf -- I simply stated that if one were to include a par-5, par-4 and par-3 in the final four to provide the maximum in diversity. Plenty of courses don't have such holes in their concluding quartet -- Doral / Blue is one that comes quickly to mind. Likely there are many others.

Adam:

You conveniently forgot to add that the best players get worked over when playing from the tip tees with the pins tucked away in the far corners. The same challenge can be presented in a far less rigorous way for those of mid to high handicap status. The holes are not penal but require strategic execution and understanding thoroughly -- as Clint Eastwood would say -- your personal limitations.

The holes are great because they do provide bailout options and don't have the forced sense you get from the island par-3 green at TPC. The four at the Bear Trap provide maximum versatility and can provide an almost endless array of tee angles and pin placements.

For someone like me who is not a fan of FL golf that is saying somerthing. Thanks for your additional info.

[Adam Clayman]

No Matt, Thank you for your additional descriptions.

[Lester George]

I agree 15 thru 18 at Seminole. 

But, I would place 15 thru 18 at Country Club of Florida (Boynton Beach) second only to Seminole.  Check it out on Google Earth.  What Robert Bruce Harris did with those four holes (in relation to startegy, length, wind direction, etc) is really remarkable.  As always, I regret most will never see that course because is is REALLY good!

Lester

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt: I often agree with you but here I must take exception.  Every time I've played the Champ course I wonder what drove to me make such a foolish decision although I have wisely stayed away for a number of years.   I admit that it is very difficult but I don't find it very enjoyable.  Water and houses are lousy hazards and with the wind blowing it is close to impossible.  Maybe if I was a better player I would have a better opinion of the course but for now, I will take Sawgrass. 

[JESII]

The holes are great because they do provide bailout options and don't have the forced sense you get from the island par-3 green at TPC. The four at the Bear Trap provide maximum versatility and can provide an almost endless array of tee angles and pin placements.

Matt,

Curious to hear you describe your thought process (strategically of course...) when playing these four holes, or any one of them.

I agree that they're good holes, and likely among the best closing stretches in the state, but I don't see a whole lot of strategy being involved.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

The 15th is a first rate par-3 hole -- it's not really long but should a northwest wind whip up it can wreak total havoc. You stand on the tee and the H20 on the right begs you to avoid it -- the issue is that pulling the shot left is no bargain either. The hole does provide a bailout area but the resulting score is likely to be a four or even more.

The 16th is one of the better par-4 holes I have played in FL. The bailout area is to the left -- the more you go that way the more the demands grow -- quite a bit of strategic design at the tee needs to be made. The closer to the right -- the shorter your approach and the easier angle to nearly all pin locations.

The par-3 17th at The Champ is just sheer terror. There are no really e-z pin positions -- the back right take a first rate shot of herculean proportions to land anywhere near the flag when situated there. Again, bailout options are available -- the likelihood of a par-3 is highly doubtful when that happens.

The closing par-5 is one of the best long three-shot holes one can play -- especially when you consider it's FL-based. The strategic qualities start at the tee -- you need to be as close to the left as possible but it requires a bit of skill to handle the distractions presented to the eye when deciding to pull the trigger. The 2nd shot is also strategic -- how deep do you go with it -- do you lay further back and risk having a longer 3rd shot. The approach to to the green is also solid. You can bailout to the left but it risks a suree three-putt -- go over and it's almost always a sure bogey.

All in all, how The Champ doesn't rate higher in FL amazes me -- plenty of other courses get thei reputations for far less indeed.

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