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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #75 on: November 27, 2010, 04:23:53 PM »
Mark,
Happy Thanksgiving to you, too. If Stanford calls tell him to duck next time.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Robert Emmons

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #76 on: November 27, 2010, 05:12:22 PM »
add:

Harrison- Williams Estate course...9 holes, NLE, Bayville, New York

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #77 on: November 27, 2010, 05:43:51 PM »
Robert,
Will do.

A few course names were mentioned in an article about Emmet’s St. Lawrence GC in Canton NY. A couple possible new ones for the list are:
-TheBriarcliff Lodge layout, where Sarazen served as professional;
-The Briarcliff Country Club course; Pelham, where the P. G. A. final was fought out between Sarazen and Hagen in1923
-Hillcrest
-Rye
I don’t know if the two Briarcliff’s are one in the same , or some course already mentioned, but Hillcrest and Rye could be new.

One other one was Grassy Sprain in Yonkers. A 1966 article about the course says:

Back in 1941 the city took over for unpaid taxes, the old Grassy Sprain Golf Club. This was located on both sides of Central Park Avenue between Tuckahoe Road and Palmer Road and players used a tunnel beneath Central Avenue to reach the second nine holes which were on the west side of Central Avenue. Today the golf course property on the east side of Central is occupied by a shopping center, the Sprain Brook Library, Andrus Memorial Park, and apartment houses. On the west side are the Bryn Mawr Ridge apartment development, another smaller apartment house, the Charles L. Curran Houses, a senior citizens public housing project now nearing completion, School Thirty one on Ravenswood Road, and a shopping center along the intersection of Tuckahoe Road and Central Avenue.

George Bahto once mentioned this course as one that he had driven by many times but didn’t know who built it. Now that this 1920 article has turned up I think the ‘case’ is solved:


« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 05:46:02 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #78 on: November 27, 2010, 06:13:42 PM »
The Hillcrest golf course was located in Queens, NY,at the intersection of Union and Utopia Turnpikes.

St. John's University occupies the site today.  
« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 06:27:15 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #79 on: November 27, 2010, 06:47:12 PM »
Here's a section of the Hillcrest course from 1954. This must have been the last photo of it as St. John's started building on the site in the mid '50s.

The complete view is at www.historicaerials.com

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Phil_the_Author

Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #80 on: November 27, 2010, 06:57:38 PM »
Jim,

I see you beat me to the photo! Here's some more information on Hillcrest.

From the Brooklyn Daily Eagle of 10/1/1922:



From the Brooklyn Daily Eagle of 4/29/1923:



From the New York Times of 2/3/1928 announcing its sale to Irving Stringer. There is a good chance that Stringer hired Tilly to redesign the course at this time. He had a relationship with him and the article refers to the course as about to be redone. We are researching it right now and when I know more I'll pass it along:

 

From the New York Times 4/10/1936. As Jim stated the course was lept open into the 1950s when St. Johns found a "better use" for the land:



« Last Edit: November 27, 2010, 07:57:56 PM by Philip Young »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #81 on: November 27, 2010, 07:50:39 PM »
Irving Stringer was the pro at places like Ocean club, St. Andrews, NGLA, plus he had an indoor golf school.

Guy got around.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #82 on: November 27, 2010, 08:18:38 PM »
There was a Briar Hall CC in Briarcliff Manor, Ny that shows an Emmet remodel (no date) with a Tillinghast remodel in 1936.

The course was sold to The Donald and is now Trump National GC.
 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Adam Jessie

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #83 on: November 28, 2010, 08:38:38 AM »
Mr. Kennedy,

I see that Harbor Hills (aka Port Jefferson CC) is missing there is not much Emmet left there but was another design that was orginally done by him.

AJ

Phil_the_Author

Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #84 on: November 28, 2010, 08:46:51 AM »
Jim and Mark,

As we know, there are a number of courses that Tilly redesigned that were original Emmett designs. I think it only fitting then that the Huntingtom Crescent Club was built on the site where Tilly's original Lilliputt Links private course on the Rainey estate once stood!

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #85 on: November 28, 2010, 09:53:24 AM »
Rye Country Club in Rye, NY is an Emmet course. Several newspaper articles back up the club's info that's posted on their website.  

« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 09:57:41 AM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom MacWood

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #86 on: November 28, 2010, 10:53:22 AM »
      Emmet's obituary states the he designed 160 golf courses. Here's the list so far, and it includes the courses from C&W.
      Only 73 71  70 more to go.  :o
      
       Antler’s Golf Club – Fort Jefferson, NY    
       Battle Island GC – Oswego NY -done over by RTJsr.
       Belmont Hills Country Club - Private in St Clairsville
       Belmont Manor - Bermuda
       Belle Terre – Port Jefferson NY (possibly known as Port Jefferson GC)
    * Blue at Congressional Country Club - Private in Bethesda
    * Blue/Green at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
    * Bonnie Briar Country Club - Private in Larchmont
       Broadmoor Country Club -  New Rochelle, NY –NLE
       Cape Cod CC – Hatchville, Ma.
    * Capital Hills at Albany in Albany
       Castle Inn GC - Bermuda - NLE
       Cherry Valley Club, Garden City, NY
       Congressional CC – Bethesda, MD.
       Coonamessett GC - N. Falmouth, Ma ( orig. 9 - now Clauson's Inn)
       Cooper River Country Club -  NJ - NLE
       Country Club of Farmington -  Farmington, CT  
    * Dudley Hill Golf Club in Dudley
    * East at Mohawk Golf Club - Private in Schenectady
       Edison CC, Rexford , NY
       East Meadow "Red"  -Garden City, NY
    * Garden City Golf Club - Private in Garden City
    * Glen Head Country Club - Private in Glen Head
       GlenWood CC - Farmingdale, NY
    * Gold at Congressional Country Club - Private in Bethesda
       Grassy Sprain GC - Yonkers, NY - NLE
       Great Neck G&CC – Great Neck, LI - NLE
    * Green/Red at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
    * Greenacres Country Club - Private in Lawrenceville
       Green Hill Yacht & CC – Quantico Md.
    * Hampshire Country Club - Private in Mamaroneck
       Harrison-Williams Estate course...9 holes, NLE, Bayville, New York
       Henry F. DuPont Private Course  - DE – NLE
       Hillcrest GC- Queens, NY - NLE  
       Hob Nob Hill- Salisbury, Ct –estate course for I.K. Fulton –NLE
       Hog Back Mountain Course -  NC – NLE?
       Hotel Frascate GC - Bermuda - NLE
    * Huntington Country Club - Private in Huntington
    * Huntington Crescent Club - Private in Huntington
       Immergrun GC- Loretto, Pa. – (quite possibly a Donald Ross course)
       Iroquois Golf Club- Niskayuna, NY- NLE
       Island Golf Links - Garden City, NY (
    * Keney Park Golf Club - Public in Hartford
       Lawrence GC- Lawrence, NY – NLE?
       Leewood GC – Scarsdale, NY –NLE?
       Lenox Hill Club. Farmingdale, LI  -1923 (Bethpage "Green" course)
       Leatherstocking GC, Cooperstown -1909  
    * Mahopac Golf Club - Private in Mahopac
       Manchester (Ct.) CC (1917 Public) - Bendelow/Emmet
       Manhasset CC - Manhasset, NY - NLE
       Mayflower Golf Course -  Tonawanda, NY - NLE
    * McGregor Links Country Club in Saratoga Springs
       Meadow Brook Club -  Westbury, NY
    * Mechanicville Golf Club - Semi-Private in Mechanicville
       Mowhak CC - Schenectady, NY
    * Nassau Country Club - Private in Glen Cove LI
       Nassau Golf Club – Nassau, Bahamas –NLE
       Northport CC - Northport, NY - NLE
      Old Country Club / Flushing Country Club (Flushing, LI, NY) –NLE?
    * Pelham Country Club - Private in Pelham Manor
       Pomonok CC - Flushing, NY
    * Powelton Club, The - Private in Newburgh
       Queensboro Links - Astoria, NY - NLE
       Queen's Valley Golf Club – Kew Gardens Hills, NY – NLE
    * Radisson Cable Beach & Golf Resort in Bahamas
    * Red/Blue at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
    * Riddell's Bay Golf and Country Club in Bermuda
    * Ridgewood Country Club - Private in Danbury
    * Rockaway River Country Club - Private in Denville
    * Rockville Links Club - Private in Rockville Centre
       Rockwood Hall CC – Tarrytown, NY - NLE
    * Rye Golf Club - Private in Rye
       Salisbury CC – Nassau County, NY (Eisenhower Park “Red” Course)
       Schalren Country Club- Mohawk View, NY (built for the Masonic Order)- NLE
       Schenectady CC - Schenectady, NY
    * Schuyler Meadows Club - Private in Loudonville
    * Seawane Club, The - Private in Hewlett Harbor
       Sherrewogue – St. James, LI – NLE (Emmet’s 6-hole personal estate course_  
       South Shore GC – Staten Island. NY
    * St. George's Golf & Country Club in East Setauket
       St. George Hotel Golf Course -  St George, Bermuda
       St Lawrence University GC, -done over by RTJsr
       St. Mary's Country Club - Private in Saint Marys
       St. Regis GC – St. Regis, NY ( possible )
       Vanderbilt Estate Golf Course - LI. NY - NLE
       Vernon Hills Country Club – NY  -NLE
    * Wee Burn Country Club - Private in Darien
       Westchester Women’s G&TC – Bedrofd, NY –NLE  (also known as Bedford G&TC)
       Wheatley Hills GC, Nassau County, NY
    * Wheeling Country Club - Private in Wheeling



Are you sure you copied all the courses from C&W? Just from a quick look it appears you are missing several, for example Laurelton (36 holes) and Cable Beach. There was a course in Cuba he designed too. You've also got Congressional listed 3 times. Emmet only designed an 18-hole course there. You might also consider separating designs from redesigns at some point.

From what I understand Harbor Hills was built at the site of the former Belle Terre. I'm not sure who designed Harbor Hills - I think it is a relatively modern golf course. There was public course adjacent to Belle Terre where my father was the head greenkeeper for a couple of summers. I believe Alex Findlay was the golf architect of that course.


Tom MacWood

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #87 on: November 28, 2010, 11:09:32 AM »
"TEPaul,
I've never looked at the manifests, but I know that Emmet traveled abroad (England and Ireland, at least) multiple times around the turn of the century."



David Moriarty:


So do I and it was apparently pretty much annually with Emmet. Many today and many on here do not really seem to understand or appreciate how much some of those people from Emmet's crowd went abroad, or why or for how long.

But it is not all that hard to figure out or find out and the reasons why.  

Actually, Devereux Emmet's Irish heritage and his first name is really interesting and telling. There was a group of French aristocrats who hied on into southeast Ireland and settled there many generations ago for some damn reason. One of them was the Devereuxs. My mother's great friend, Antelo Devereux's family was one of them. Antelo had about a 5,000 acre plantation in South Carolina that had been in the family for generations----hunting and all that; massive packs of hunting dogs and such----eg Devereux Emmet's pastime of training hunting dogs in South Carolina and transporting them annually to Ireland and selling them.

I bet the people crossing the Atlantic with Devie and his pack of hunting hounds got a lot of sleep, huh? Have you ever heard a pack of hunting hounds at full bay? It's otherworldly!  ;)

The Radnor Hunt is about a half mile from my farm here.  


Emmet's great uncle was the Irish rebel Robert Emmet. He and his brother Thomas Emmet (Devereux's great grandfather) plotted with Napoleon in Paris when the latter was planning an invasion of England. When he returned to Ireland Robt Emmet put in motion an armed uprising which included the murder of Lord Kilwarden. Emmet was tried for treason and hanged in 1803. Thomas Emmet migrated to America following his execution and eventually became NY Attorney General.

Normally when you see an odd name like Devereux it has something to do with the mother, or her maiden name, but Emmet's mother's name was Pierson, so perhaps it does go back to the family's dealings in France.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 11:12:11 AM by Tom MacWood »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #88 on: November 28, 2010, 11:30:38 AM »
TMac,
I didn't see Cable Beach in C&W. Laurelton might be hard to find in C&W as it only shows up in the list of courses at the back of the book, it's not listed in Emmet's profile.
 
The courses with an * next to their name are from the World Golf list posted earlier by Mike and I just copied it verbatim. I see what you mean about Congressional, they have it listed 3 times.

I believe that Harbor Hills, Belle Terre and Port Jefferson CC are the same course. The PJCC website says they've had numerous name changes and several architects over their 100+ years.   Willie Tucker did work there in 1912.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

TEPaul

Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #89 on: November 28, 2010, 12:34:30 PM »
"Normally when you see an odd name like Devereux it has something to do with the mother, or her maiden name, but Emmet's mother's name was Pierson, so perhaps it does go back to the family's dealings in France."


I'm not sure I would call the name Devereux an odd name; it's just French, even if some may think everything French is a bit odd anyway. ;)

But a name like Devereux Emmet does sound sort of odd since it is clearly of two distinct national heritages. Emmet's first name may go back to his mother's mother, or her mother's mother. Some historians often don't pay enough attention to the so-called "distaff side" (female side) as opposed to the "spear side" (male side) and the various significances of it, particularly in some national heritages.

It is not that unusual in certain national cultures and heritages for the family to take on and maintain as their surname a combination of the husband and wife, generally as a hyphenated surname, and particularly in the royal or aristocratic class (particularly Mid-European and Russian aristocratic heritages). I don't know it for sure but it is probably the result of various historic ramifications to do with inheritance and estates and so forth and so on.

I have only one full sibling---a sister. But I also have a half brother who is also my second cousin (his mother and my mother were cousins with the maiden surname of Clark). My half brother is about ten years older than me and about ten years ago he did something with his name I have never really heard of before. His real name was James W. Paul; his mother's maiden name was Hortense Clark. About ten years ago he decided to formally changed his name to James W. Paul Clark. When I asked him why he did that he said that he felt his surname had honored his father's name for sixty years and he felt like from now on his surname should also honor his mother's maiden name! 

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #90 on: November 28, 2010, 12:42:00 PM »
I don't know about Emmet's genealogy, but the Devereux name has existed in Ireland since the Normans,  especially in Wexford. 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom MacWood

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #91 on: November 28, 2010, 02:05:41 PM »
Jim
The original 9-hole course at Belle Terre was built in 1907 by Alex Findlay, and then at some point in the 20's Emmet expanded it to 18 holes. The club went under during the Depression. In 1955 Alfred Tull designed a new 18-hole course for the new Harbor Hills CC. There was also 9-hole public or semi-public course at Port Jefferson, that is where my father worked. I believe it was called Port Jefferson, and that may be the course Tucker designed in 1912.

You must have different version of C&W because mine has Laurelton, Cable Beach and CC of Santiago (Cuba).

Tom MacWood

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #92 on: November 28, 2010, 02:40:18 PM »
I don't know about Emmet's genealogy, but the Devereux name has existed in Ireland since the Normans,  especially in Wexford. 

Jim
I did not realize Devereux was Irish family name. There were several Devereux involved in the insurrection including James Devereux who played a major role. James Devereux and Thomas Addis Emmet (Devereux's great grandfather) were exiled at the same time. I believe James Devereux went to France.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #93 on: November 28, 2010, 03:38:33 PM »
TMac,
Here's the article about Tucker at Belleport.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9A02E1DA1E3CE633A25751C0A9609C946396D6CF

My C&W is from 1984, the 3rd printing. The profile section is botched up in a few places, for instance, Mackenzie's is on pg 193.To find his remodels you have to flip to page 195.  Karl Littens' remodel heading is found under Langford, Maples under Litten's etc.
They really screwed up the L's and the M's in mine.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 03:48:47 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Tom MacWood

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #94 on: November 28, 2010, 05:10:36 PM »
Jim
My version is the 'Architects of Golf' from 1993.

Golf magazine reported (2/1907) Alex Findlay had laid out a new 9-hole course at Belle Terre. NYTimes reported (7/7/1907) that the course was nearly ready for play and NYT again in 1909 (5/16/1909) reported the course was one of the longest and most picturesque nine-hole courses in the US. It sound like Tucker made some improvements to that course in 1912.

TEPaul

Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #95 on: November 28, 2010, 06:55:16 PM »
"I don't know about Emmet's genealogy, but the Devereux name has existed in Ireland since the Normans,  especially in Wexford."


Jim Kennedy:

That is exactly right; Wexford and southeastern Ireland.  However, even if not perhaps connected by marriage, up until the last two generations at least the same Emmets and Devereuxes were pretty closely connected in New York and Boston and particularly around Dark Harbor, Maine.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 07:00:06 PM by TEPaul »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #96 on: November 28, 2010, 07:20:30 PM »
Another Emmet for the list, Shelter rock in Searington, LI built in 1922.
 


The area today:


The last reference to the club that I saw was in 1953. Their pro, Alex Ednie, drove a golf ball through the 500 page Queensboro phone book and the ball continued on another 100 yards.


edit: Looks more like it lay fallow during WW11 and eventually turned into a housing development by 1950.    
« Last Edit: November 28, 2010, 07:54:04 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #97 on: November 28, 2010, 11:24:07 PM »
what WHAT?

Mayflower Golf Course -  Tonawanda, NY - NLE

What is this and why was D.E. so far west in New York state?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #98 on: November 28, 2010, 11:25:29 PM »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tom MacWood

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Re: Devereux Emmet Society
« Reply #99 on: November 28, 2010, 11:42:55 PM »
Here is the list from the later version of C&W:

Farmington CC (Ct)
Hob Nob Hill GC (Ct)
Keney Park GC (Ct)
Ridgewood CC (Ct)
Wee Burn CC (Ct)
Henry DuPont Estate (De)
Congressional CC (Md)
Cape Cod CC (Ma)
Lenox GC (Ma)
Cooper River CC (NJ)
Greenarces CC (NJ)
Albany CC (NY)
Lenox Hills CC (NY) [Bethpage-Green]
Briarcliff Manor CC (NY)
Broadmoor CC (NY)
Salisbury Links (NY) [Cherry Valley]
Coldstream GC (NY)
Edison CC (NY)
Salisbury GL #1, #2, #3, #4, #5 (NY) [Eisenhower Park]
Garden City GC (NY)
Women’s National G&CC (NY) [Glen Head]
Glenwood CC (NY) [North Shore]
Grassy Spain CC (NY)
Hampshire CC (NY)
Harrison Williams Estate (NY)
Huntington Crescent CC (NY)
Huntington CC (NY)
Intercollegiate GC (NY)
Lake Isle CC (NY)
Laurelton GC North/South (NY)
Lawrence GC (NY)
Leatherstocking CC (NY)
Leewood GC (NY)
Mahopac GC (NY)
Manhattan CC (NY)
Mayflower GC (NY)
McGregor GL (NY)
Meadowbrook C (NY)
Mechanicsville CC (NY)
Mohawk GC (NY)
Nassau CC (NY)
Northport CC (NY)
Old Westbury (NY)
Pelham CC (NY)
Pomonok CC (NY)
Queensboro Links (NY)
Queens Valley GC (NY)
Rockaway Hunting C (NY)
Rockville C (NY)
Rockwood Hall CC (NY)
Rye CC (NY)
Schenectady CC (NY)
Schuyler Meadow (NY)
Seawane C (NY)
Sherewogue (NY)
Stephen Clark Estate (NY)
St. Georges G&CC (NY)
St. Lawrence University (NY)
Vanderbilt Estate (NY)
Vernon Hills CC (NY)
Wheatley Hills GC (NY)
Hog Back Mountain C (NC)
Belmont Hills CC (Oh)
Charles Schwab Estate (Pa)
Elk County CC (Pa)
St. Mary’s CC (Pa)
Thomas Fortune Ryan Estate (Va)
Wheeling CC (WV)
Bahamas CC (Bahamas)
Cable Beach Hotel (Bahamas)
Belmont Hall & C (Bermuda)
Castle Inn GC (Bermuda)
Hotel Frascati GC (Bermuda)
Riddell’s Bay G&CC (Bermuda)
CC of Santiago (Cuba)

Redesign:
Hartford GC (Ct)
Bedford G&TC (NY)
Bonnie Briar CC (NY)
Engineers GC (NY)
Old Country Club (NY)
Powelton C (NY)
St. Georges Hotel GC (Bermuda)