Devereux Emmet Society

[TEPaul]

"Anything still missing?"


MikeS:

Yes definitely; it seems Emmet's Meadowbrook Hunt Club course is still missing from the lists. That one was reputed to be one of the best ones he ever did and in the opinion of one direct observer I'm aware of who sure did see most all the courses on Long Island in the old days, perhaps the prettiest golf course she ever saw.

One can read about the way it once was in Dan Wexler's excellent Missing Links. On that note it's too bad Dan Wexler is no longer participating on this site. That man is a truly credible golf architecture historian and historical architecture analyst.

By the way, in his short bio on Emmet, Dan Wexler did mention he believes Emmet was involved with about seventy five courses in his career and so if that's true I guess this thread and the new Emmet blog has a ways to go.

Mark, if you have not spoken yet to Dan Wexler, I would be happy to put you in touch with him.

[Tom MacWood]

Before Mark takes on creating detente between posters or figuring out the sexuality of private men who have been dead for 75 years  , perhaps we can refocus on Mark's updated course list with the help of many here:

http://devereuxemmetsociety.blogspot.com/2010/11/devereux-emmet-course-list.html

Anything still missing?

There are quite a few missing. The list from C&W is much more complete. I'd start there and then add and subtract from it.

[Tom MacWood]

One of the courses missing from the C&W list is Belle Terre, which was near Port Jefferson. Also Glenwood is on the list, but there is no mention of it morphing into North Shore. Emmet was also involved in the design of the NGLA.

[TEPaul]

"Emmet was also involved in the design of the NGLA."


The "verifiably provable" truth of the routing and design of NGLA is, Charlie being Charlie and being the former geometric GCA novice he was up until that point, he picked the extensive Golden Age GCA brains of Emmet, Travis and Whigam in the 6-7 years leading up to the development of NGLA and then completely minimized their extensive contributions and took all the attribution and credit unto himself.

Emmet, Travis and Whigam actually routed and designed NGLA or at least were the "driving force" behind it. And as that little girl in the fried chicken commercial said, Raynor "hepped."

[TEPaul]

"Emmet was also involved in the design of the NGLA."


By the way, apropos of this remark on this thread, the thread entitled "Who ACTUALLY Designed National Golf Links of America?" is back in town and on the first page again for your consideration, education, delectation and comments! It may've taken a couple of months hiatus because someone may have flip-flopped or someone may've accused someone else of flip-floppery!! 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Immergrun GC, in Loretto, Pa.-was originally built for Charles Schwab in 1917?
The club's website has it as a Ross but Craig Rokke and Chris Blakely (and others) have it as an Emmet. Bookeeping records from the estate are supposed to have verified the payment to DE.

[TEPaul]

For anything to do with Charles Schwab related golf interests the best expert I've ever run across would be John Yerger of the Sunnehanna GC in Johnstown, Pa.

And once again, I would love to know more about Emmet's history in getting paid to practice golf course architecture. I ask because if he was doing it through the teens I can't imagine how he avoided those tough years and some messy situations to do with the USGA and amateur status. If he was getting paid for architecture through those years the only thing I can think of is he must have had some kind of protector within the USGA (Macdonald?) or the USGA must not have considered him to be a amateur golfer of skill at that point to be able to trade on his name and reputation as an expert golfer.

I might also note that Macdonald himself went into what he termed his "renunciation" of tournament golf (at least on the national (USGA) level) right around the same time he began NGLA. Probably no more than a coincidence in time, though, as he was beginning to get a bit long in the tooth at that time and he claimed his body just didn't seem to be getting the same messages his mind used to send it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

John Yerger says it's a Ross course, and that he's confident the club has an architectural plan for the course. It was first named Eurana, after CS' wife.

Craig Rokke said Ron Whitten and the local historical society believe it's an Emmet.

[DMoriarty]

Kris,

There was no nastiness on my part; just quoting TEPaul on the topic of the thread.  Feel free to quote anything of mine as you see fit; but I don't think you'll find anything comparable.  Plus, Kris, if you read my last post then you knew that I had already opted out of the exchange and moved on, so I am not sure what your point is except to get in a dig of your own.   Happy Thanksgiving to you.
_________________________

Jim Kennedy,

Can you tell us a bit more about the photo and course from Salisbury?  Particularly from what year the photo was taken and the source?  I'd like to take a look at the whole thing.   Thanks.   

[Jim_Kennedy]

David,
Here’s the link to the photo.
http://tinyurl.com/2u6rllo

….and a 1933 article describing the place.
http://tinyurl.com/2daj6hw

Short story: Fulton built it for himself and friends but let the townsfolk play on it. Abuse the course and you were banished. His wife let it lapse upon his death in the ‘40s.

…..here’s the clubhouse and some views of the old playing corridors.
 http://tinyurl.com/23k8y7q

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty:

Have you ever seen any United States ship manifest listings of Emmet entering the US from abroad or any UK or Irish ship manifest lists showing him entering the UK or Ireland?

Have you ever actually seen a UK ship manifest listing from the era app. 1895 to say 1920?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Here's a listing of Emmet's courses w/Tull. Quite a few haven't been mentioned as of yet.  

http://tinyurl.com/36kdmob

One in particular, the Bedford Golf and Tennis Club, was originally to be known as the "Westchester Women's Golf and Tennis Club".
Rich Goodale's mom played there on occasion. An article about the course can be seen here: http://tinyurl.com/3a5rf52

If you'd like to see the 1934 aerial of the Lady's course plug 03985 into the "search all collections" box (upper r.hand corner of the page) at the CT. Library site.

http://tinyurl.com/2u6rllo
 

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Jim.   He was in his 80s at the time, which is pretty amazing.  Neat story.

I don't have Cornish and Whitten in front of me, but what about Belmont Manor in Bermuda?  

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/AmericanGolfer/1929/ag333ai.pdf



Also, I am not sure if it actually happened, but according to the June 23, 1921 Schenectady Gazette, Emmet would probably expand their course to 18 holes.  I believe the course is now called Rolling Hills Country Club.  



____________________________________

TEPaul,

I've never looked at the manifests, but I know that Emmet traveled abroad (England and Ireland, at least) multiple times around the turn of the century.   

[DMoriarty]

Have you ever actually seen a UK ship manifest listing from the era app. 1895 to say 1920?

Yes.

[Jim_Kennedy]

David,
I have that Antler's article, but you're right, it isn't clear what he did.

He also 'approved some plans for the St. Regis GC, you can find that one in a search.

Emmet also built a 9 hole course for himself and friends on Sherrewogue, his St. James LI estate.
http://tinyurl.com/3yyw2df
The article makes it sound like a pretty nice place to play.


edit: the Bahamas and Bermuda courses are listed at the Emmet/Tull link.

[TEPaul]

"Yes."


David Moriarty:

Thanks very much. Have you ever actually seen one (rather than just hearing about one) from the UK that lists Harry Colt returning to the UK on June 8 or 9 1913?

Have you ever seen one from the USA or UK listing Devereux Emmet?

[DMoriarty]

TEPaul,

As I said, I hadn't looked at any manifests for Devereux Emmet.  I just took a quick look and there are plenty of manifests of Emmet arriving in England and Ireland within a decade (either way) of the turn of the century.  Not sure this has ever been a mystery though.  As I said, there are other sources indicating that he had been abroad extensively during this period.  For instance, the following lists numerous letters from Devereux to family members from overseas: 

http://www.aaa.si.edu/collections/findingaids/emmefami.htm

Nothing obviously referencing golf course design but a few interesting references nonetheless.  Dev. Emmet was a direct descendant of the Irish patriot and martyr, Richard Emmet, and had many other prominent family members.   

As for your question about Colt, this thread is about Emmet.  That said, I'd be glad to provide you with the information you seek (and proof) but not in a thread because of possible copyright issues, and particularly not in this thread about Emmet.  But Tom, while we are off topic, could you please finally come clean regarding the alleged Drexel papers?  Not here, but in another thread or by IM if you wish.   

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty:


Jeeesus, that Emmet family colllection looks to be potentially amazing!! Great find, at least potentially. Have you been through it to any degree to see if there is anything in it anywhere from or about Devereux Emmet to do with golf course architecture?

One thing just jumped out at me while scanning through it cursorally. In the main house on this farm, there is a massive potrait of my mother as a young woman hanging over the fireplace in the living-room. It is by none other than Ellen Emmet Rand. My mother studied art herself in New York and abroad and a few times she spoke of that portrait and its artist. I think she only referred to her as Mrs Rand, and she was famous and quite the character. But I never thought of an Emmet connection. I just went over and looked at it and sure enough it is signed Ellen Emmet Rand.

Small world for sure!


"But Tom, while we are off topic, could you please finally come clean regarding the alleged Drexel papers?  Not here, but in another thread or by IM if you wish."

I will be happy to contact you about that if you just give the word here and now that lifts this ban you seem to want to maintain from some time ago about me never trying to contact you about anything other than on this DG. I would prefer to do it via email, not on this IM. I think you will understand why.

[DMoriarty]

I've skmmed through the guide and as i wrote above there are no obvious references to gca.  A few rounds of golf, though. These arent his papers but mostly the papers of a couple of female members of the family and most of the references to DE are letters to to them (one referencing a meeting he had with the President.). There are some about his death (spreading word I imagine) and another unrelated to design that ought to be explored further before it is discussed here.

I haven't looked at the documents only at the index.

If you can do so civilly, then you can email me.  Otherwise not.

[TEPaul]

"If you can do so civilly, then you can email me.  Otherwise not."


David Moriarty:

My experiences with you on this website, and I believe the experiences with others with you on this website with what you seem to think is uncivil or insulting towards you and what you say to others that you don't seem to think is uncivil towards others or that you seem to think you have some good right to say anyway, does not match up by a long shot---not even close, in fact.

There are a lot of parts of posts from you on here that are really obnoxious and highly personally insulting and you have to date so far refused to delete them while only hedging and rationalizing your way around the whole thing.

I offered to delete all of mine and matter of fact, I think I will just go ahead and do it anyway. This website doesn't need them and they should be removed.

Anyway, with this Drexel material there is an email coming your way on what it's about. Let's hope you don't think it uncivil but with you who really knows?

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul,
I've never looked at the manifests, but I know that Emmet traveled abroad (England and Ireland, at least) multiple times around the turn of the century."



David Moriarty:


So do I and it was apparently pretty much annually with Emmet. Many today and many on here do not really seem to understand or appreciate how much some of those people from Emmet's crowd went abroad, or why or for how long.

But it is not all that hard to figure out or find out and the reasons why.  

Actually, Devereux Emmet's Irish heritage and his first name is really interesting and telling. There was a group of French aristocrats who hied on into southeast Ireland and settled there many generations ago for some damn reason. One of them was the Devereuxs. My mother's great friend, Antelo Devereux's family was one of them. Antelo had about a 5,000 acre plantation in South Carolina that had been in the family for generations----hunting and all that; massive packs of hunting dogs and such----eg Devereux Emmet's pastime of training hunting dogs in South Carolina and transporting them annually to Ireland and selling them.

I bet the people crossing the Atlantic with Devie and his pack of hunting hounds got a lot of sleep, huh? Have you ever heard a pack of hunting hounds at full bay? It's otherworldly! 

The Radnor Hunt is about a half mile from my farm here.  

[Tom MacWood]

I've skmmed through the guide and as i wrote above there are no obvious references to gca.  A few rounds of golf, though. These arent his papers but mostly the papers of a couple of female members of the family and most of the references to DE are letters to to them (one referencing a meeting he had with the President.). There are some about his death (spreading word I imagine) and another unrelated to design that ought to be explored further before it is discussed here.

I haven't looked at the documents only at the index.

If you can do so civilly, then you can email me.  Otherwise not.

I looked into that a few years back, and what impressed me was the artistic aptitude of Emmet and his siblings.

[TEPaul]

David Moriarty:


You're right, that Emmet family collection, as amazing as it is in some ways, does not really much involve Devereux. In his era it appears to be mainly a series of correspondences amongst his sisters and their friends and connections.

One of the things that amazes me about it is how and how well the whole thing managed to stay together over such a long period of time to eventually get donated in the 1980s and 1990s by Rosamind Sherwood (Posie's daughter and Dev's niece).

But what the collection really does do is to give us all a fascinating vantage and view into the life and times of that kind of family from that high-living world of art, society and even politics. They all hung out with the Best of the Best of their generation, that's for sure---or the most powerful and famous in various walks of life, and across two continents.

It all just confirms my suspicions of the way that world was and the way it worked back then and how small and close it was compared to our era.

There are interesting views of other little tid-bits in there too such as the letter where I think Lydia said she was so surprised to see Marion Hollins and someone like Mary Pickford and another famous person sitting on a sofa holding hands! There are also a number of references in those letters to a Mckim; That was Marion Hollins' ultra attractive and charming, albeit ultra dissolute, brother. Marion was constantly bailing him out.

I have the distinct feeling that collections like those really do give us a first hand snap-shot of the basic "ethos" of that era known as The Golden Age, not with architecture but generally with a certain type and class, particularly after the mind-numbing, generation destroying affects of WW1. It really was sort of like those people having realized the danger of developing technologies made life something that one had to live for the day, because in an instance it could be over for so many. Carpie Diem on steroids----live fast, live loose and live life to the hilt because you may not have a tomorrow.

[mark chalfant]

I just want to thank everybody for the many fine posts re Devereux Emmet. I also appreciate the exceptional help provided by Mike Sweeney and Jim Kennedy as I have gotten started on this journey.  In addition, I have  put a call into Dev's buddy, Stanford White at his Pennsylvania Station office suite but Stanford has not returned my call so far. I will share when he does.

At thanksgiving I am grateful for all the nice friends at our website which Ran M. founded 11 years ago

[Jim_Kennedy]

      Emmet's obituary states that he designed 160 golf courses. Here's the list so far, and it includes the courses from C&W.
      Only 73 71 70 69 more to go.  
      
       Antler’s Golf Club – Fort Jefferson, NY    
       Battle Island GC – Oswego NY -done over by RTJsr.
       Belmont Hills Country Club - Private in St Clairsville
       Belmont Manor - Bermuda
       Belle Terre – Port Jefferson NY (also known as Port Jefferson GC)
    * Blue/Green at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
    * Bonnie Briar Country Club - Private in Larchmont
       Brentwood GC  - Town of Islip, NY
       Broadmoor Country Club -  New Rochelle, NY –NLE
       Cape Cod CC – Hatchville, Ma.
    * Capital Hills at Albany in Albany
       Castle Inn GC - Bermuda - NLE
       Cherry Valley Club, Garden City, NY
       Congressional CC – Bethesda, MD.
       Coonamessett GC - N. Falmouth, Ma ( orig. 9 - now Clauson's Inn)
       Cooper River Country Club -  NJ - NLE
       Country Club of Farmington -  Farmington, CT  
    * Dudley Hill Golf Club in Dudley
    * East at Mohawk Golf Club - Private in Schenectady
       Edison CC, Rexford , NY
       East Meadow "Red"  -Garden City, NY
    * Garden City Golf Club - Private in Garden City
    * Glen Head Country Club - Private in Glen Head
       GlenWood CC - Farmingdale, NY
       Grassy Sprain GC - Yonkers, NY - NLE
       Great Neck G&CC – Great Neck, LI - NLE
    * Green/Red at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
    * Greenacres Country Club - Private in Lawrenceville
       Green Hill Yacht & CC – Quantico Md.
    * Hampshire Country Club - Private in Mamaroneck
       Harrison-Williams Estate course...9 holes, NLE, Bayville, New York
       Henry F. DuPont Private Course  - DE – NLE
       Hillcrest GC- Queens, NY - NLE  
       Hob Nob Hill- Salisbury, Ct –estate course for I.K. Fulton –NLE
       Hog Back Mountain Course -  NC – NLE?
       Hotel Frascate GC - Bermuda - NLE
    * Huntington Country Club - Private in Huntington
    * Huntington Crescent Club - Private in Huntington
       Immergrun GC- Loretto, Pa. – (quite possibly a Donald Ross course)
       Iroquois Golf Club- Niskayuna, NY- NLE
       Island Golf Links - Garden City, NY
    * Keney Park Golf Club - Public in Hartford
       Laurelton GC - Laurelton, LI - 36 holes - NLE
       Lawrence GC- Lawrence, NY – NLE?
       Leewood GC – Scarsdale, NY –NLE?
       Lenox Hill Club. Farmingdale, LI  -1923 (Bethpage "Green" course)
       Leatherstocking GC, Cooperstown -1909  
    * Mahopac Golf Club - Private in Mahopac
       Manchester (Ct.) CC (1917 Public) - Bendelow/Emmet
       Manhasset CC - Manhasset, NY - NLE
       Mayflower Golf Course -  Tonawanda, NY - NLE
    * McGregor Links Country Club in Saratoga Springs
       Meadow Brook Club -  Westbury, NY
    * Mechanicville Golf Club - Semi-Private in Mechanicville
       Mowhak CC - Schenectady, NY
    * Nassau Country Club - Private in Glen Cove LI
       Nassau Golf Club – Nassau, Bahamas –NLE
       Northport CC - Northport, NY - NLE
      Old Country Club / Flushing Country Club (Flushing, LI, NY) –NLE?
    * Pelham Country Club - Private in Pelham Manor
       Pomonok CC - Flushing, NY
    * Powelton Club, The - Private in Newburgh
       Queensboro Links - Astoria, NY - NLE
       Queen's Valley Golf Club – Kew Gardens Hills, NY – NLE
    * Radisson Cable Beach & Golf Resort in Bahamas
    * Red/Blue at Hartford Golf Club - Private in West Hartford
    * Riddell's Bay Golf and Country Club in Bermuda
    * Ridgewood Country Club - Private in Danbury
    * Rockaway River Country Club - Private in Denville
    * Rockville Links Club - Private in Rockville Centre
       Rockwood Hall CC – Tarrytown, NY - NLE
    * Rye Golf Club - Private in Rye
       Salisbury CC – Nassau County, NY (Eisenhower Park “Red” Course)
       Schalren Country Club- Mohawk View, NY (built for the Masonic Order)- NLE
       Schenectady CC - Schenectady, NY
    * Schuyler Meadows Club - Private in Loudonville
    * Seawane Club, The - Private in Hewlett Harbor
       Shelter Rock Country Club - Searington, LI - NLE
       Sherrewogue – St. James, LI – NLE (Emmet’s 6-hole personal estate course_  
       South Shore GC – Staten Island. NY
    * St. George's Golf & Country Club in East Setauket
       St. George Hotel Golf Course -  St George, Bermuda
       St Lawrence University GC, -done over by RTJsr
       St. Mary's Country Club - Private in Saint Marys
       St. Regis GC – St. Regis, NY ( possible )
       Vanderbilt Estate Golf Course - LI. NY - NLE
       Vernon Hills Country Club – NY  -NLE
    * Wee Burn Country Club - Private in Darien
       Westchester Women’s G&TC – Bedford, NY –NLE  (also known as Bedford G&TC)
       Wheatley Hills GC, Nassau County, NY
    * Wheeling Country Club - Private in Wheeling