[John Chilver-Stainer]

The “Dog Leg” is an accepted part of course design, however back in the ancient days of Scottish links there was no demand to fit 18 Holes in the available land and each hole was more or less a direct path to the green, punctuated with difficulties of humps, hills and hazards. “Dog legs” were a rarity.

In contrast “Dog Legs” appear to be in abundance on modern layouts, almost in a desperate attempt to avoid a straight hole.

A couple of the obvious negatives of a "Dog Leg".

“Dog legs” invariably force a line of play, consequently the options are minimized.

The frequent opportunity to cut the corner by the longer player often means they are actually playing a shorter point-to-point distance than implied on the score card.

There’s been some great discussions on “Dog Legs” over the years, and those who want to catch up on some interesting comment should check out these old threads I found using the “Search” function.

"Straight Doglegs, Elbows and Capes"
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,1983.msg38682/#msg38682

"The reverse dogleg"
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,2606.0/

"synopsizing length vs accuracy in design"
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,4903.msg94076/#msg94076

So when did the “Dog Leg” (and the Elbow and the Cape and the Reverse and the Double) come into fashion?

Are “Dog Legs”  really an improvement to a layout – wouldn’t it be better to keep the holes straight and load it with difficulties?

[Tom_Doak]

John,

Actually, I don't build very many true dogleg holes, and often wonder why I don't build more of them.

However, I do agree with you that a lot of architects seem afraid to build a straight hole. I think it is partly because they are so worried about balance.  Tom Fazio used to do a page in his set of plans with a scorecard showing whether each hole was a dogleg left or right, so he would be sure to balance them equally; and Pete Dye used to count them up to double check himself.  So, every hole had to be classified as left or right.

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

Would you say that architects that are more cognizant of centerline hazards don't design as many doglegs?  I think that you and Bill Coore have many holes where some would characterize them as doglegs.  When in actuality they are more "straight" holes with a hazard near the landing area--making it play as a dogleg.  A hole like 14 at Ballyneal or 5 at Talking Stick North come to mind.

Diagonal carries off the tee can also make a hole feel like a dogleg as well.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Dog legs did exist in the 19th century. They worked in conjunction with criss cross where the land was tight (limited land for the numbers of holes the club wanted).

We yet again seem to forget that may tried and tested examples of holes were considered in the real Golden Days of GCA (1850-1890).

I suppose if one considers the Tee as the starting point and the Flag as the finishing point then I follow that golf courses are generally finished to a straight line. For me it’s a question of navigating around a course following the optimum path that matches my own skill levels and not forgetting the hazards & contours to disrupt that flow.

Perhaps we are spending just too much time looking through viewfinders checking distances instead of reading the course as it unfolds before you.

Yes the Tee to Flag is a straight line but that is not necessary the direction you seek or your ball travels, so if this simple observation has been missed perhaps there are more doglegs out there that never been picked up on the radar finders.

The truth is out there, we just need to put away our toys (carts and range finders) get off our backside open our eyes and LOOK.

No offense intended just my response to the first opening paragraph.

Melvyn

PS As for the requirement for 18 holes, sorry there was a great demand for 18 hole courses to match TOC, however the finances of the clubs did not allow them to first lease land for 18 hole or later purchase said land. Money in the early boom times of golf in 19th Century Scotland was very tight, hence Old Tom keeping his design fee of just £1 per day for the best part of 50 years.

 

[Jeff_Brauer]

If you go back to Geoff Cornish's book on design (not the CW one) it reads as if he thinks dog legs were pretty controversial stuff when first introduced way back when. 

My office once had a philosopical debate about whether there were any truly straight holes.  What if it bends 1 degree? Is that a dogleg?  My old mentors used to say there are only two instances to not use a dogleg - where there are a lot of trees and where there aren't.  They rarely used big doglegs because they wasted space on the tight sites they seemed to get and they introduced safety problems on those sites.

Generally, I prefer gentle doglegs. I mean, how much angle do you need to set up a draw or fade?  I know too much makes it a placement hole only, whereas 10-20 degrees sets up a shot, allows you to see most of the hole (which usually looks great) and doesn't look forced on most landscapes like 60+ degree doglegs more often do.

As to the CL bunkers, I can tell you that those holes need to be virtually straight, or you inadvertantly create a short and long route rather than two equal choices, if that is what you want with the center bunker.  Sometimes, you do.

[Jon Wiggett]

Hi Gents,

this is a photo I lifted off another thread.

Is this a straight hole or a dog leg, double dog leg??

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Tommy_Naccarato/Bayonet/_G101319.jpg[/img]


I would say it was a straight hole.

I also think that many GCAs who design straight holes also have the hazards more cenrally placed. Alternatevly, it could be said that the move towards placing the hazards along the sides of the fairways led to GCAs using dog legs to move hazards that are on the side of the fairway more into the line of play.

Jon

[Melvyn Morrow]

Jon

Sorry mate certainly not my type of golf course. Is it played upon or just there for decoration?

Melvyn

[Adam Clayman]

Tom,

Would you say that architects that are more cognizant of centerline hazards don't design as many doglegs?  I think that you and Bill Coore have many holes where some would characterize them as doglegs.  When in actuality they are more "straight" holes with a hazard near the landing area--making it play as a dogleg.  A hole like 14 at Ballyneal or 5 at Talking Stick North come to mind.

Diagonal carries off the tee can also make a hole feel like a dogleg as well.

Ben, I have to disagree with you on 14 at BN. The reason I disagree with you is because of the winds influences. If the hole were straight, there would be no change in the winds influence, on both the drive and approach. But on 14 at BN, the slight dog leg, does make for treating the wind differently on approach as one does on the drive.  The south wind is the one where this is evident the most. On the tee shot you are hitting directly into it. But on approach the angle is altered and affects differently shaped shots. i.e.  helps a draw hurts a fade.

[Ben Sims]

Tom,

Would you say that architects that are more cognizant of centerline hazards don't design as many doglegs?  I think that you and Bill Coore have many holes where some would characterize them as doglegs.  When in actuality they are more "straight" holes with a hazard near the landing area--making it play as a dogleg.  A hole like 14 at Ballyneal or 5 at Talking Stick North come to mind.

Diagonal carries off the tee can also make a hole feel like a dogleg as well.

Ben, I have to disagree with you on 14 at BN. The reason I disagree with you is because of the winds influences. If the hole were straight, there would be no change in the winds influence, on both the drive and approach. But on 14 at BN, the slight dog leg, does make for treating the wind differently on approach as one does on the drive.  The south wind is the one where this is evident the most. On the tee shot you are hitting directly into it. But on approach the angle is altered and affects differently shaped shots. i.e.  helps a draw hurts a fade.

Adam,

Ballyneal #14 may be a bit of a stretch for my argument as it does turn slightly to the left and the wind can change influence as you orient to the green.  It's one of my favorite Renaissance holes, and maybe I was a bit quick to use it in this comparison. 

But I disagree with your premise about a "straight" hole having the same wind of influence on the tee ball as the approach ball(s).  I can think of a few holes where a centerline hazard forces one to play to a side and therefore, the wind has a different effect on the approach shot as the tee shot.  Granted, there will still be elements of the tee ball wind that are the same as the approach wind.  But I can think of several holes where a tee shot had a straight tailwind or headwind, and the approach had a quartering aspect to it based on the angle. 

Width of fairway is the main variable in "straight" holes playing like a dogleg.  Let's also not forget about how contour in the ground and canting of surfaces can have this affect as well.  A hole can look straight two dimensionally, but because of how the fairway slants or rolls, can cause a ball to gather on one side, making the approach to the green a different orientation as the tee ball to the green.

[John Mayhugh]

The most enjoyable courses feature at least four doglegs.  I'm straying off the architecture topic a bit, though.

[Ronald Montesano]

Well, let this aficionado have his say.  I grew up at Grover Cleveland in Buffalo, the second home of the CC of Buffalo and the (now truncated) site of the 1912 USGA Open.  The course has 18 straight holes...yay.  Not one of them forces the line of play one way or the other.  As a result, when I moved to Audubon, another muni designed by the heralded William Harries, I was shocked to find doglegged holes moving this way and that other way.

My question would be, what forces the dogleg?  Is it variety, land, space or something else?  I have no problem with the doglegged hole, so long as it is not a 90 degree sort.  That one is typically the result of bad planning...can anyone nominate a good to great 90 degree doglegged hole?

I'm certain that I have more to say on this subject, but I'll wait to see what others have to say before adding.

[Norbert P]

  Lost Tracks (Brian Whitcomb) in Bend, Oregon has 14 doglegs.  Really. There are 4 par 3's that do not dogleg.  (Though you have to walk around an island green through an old rail car.)

[J Sadowsky]

 Lost Tracks (Brian Whitcomb) in Bend, Oregon has 14 doglegs.  Really. There are 4 par 3's that do not dogleg.  (Though you have to walk around an island green through an old rail car.)

I just played Glenn Dale, a short course that i love which really is crammed into its space, so you'd think they'd have a lot of doglegs.  But most holes either don't dog at all, dog a great deal (almost 90 degrees), or dog around a hazard.

Hole 1 = straight, Hole 2= straight (short par 4), Hole 3= doges left, but around a lake, so that the first shot tempts you to hit near the lake and the second shot has to be over the lake.  Hole 4, dogs right around the lake, with the lake jutting in through the fairway at one point, Hole 5 = par 3, Hole 6 = straight, Hole 7 = par 3, Hole 8 = straight par 5, Hole 9 = straight, Hole 10 = straight, Hole 11, dogs left (sharply, short), Hole 12 = par 3, Hole 13 = straight (uphill), Hole 14 = straight, Hole 15 = par 3, Hole 16 = straight, Hole 17 = 90 degree sharp dogleg left (short), Hole 18 = almost 90 degree dogleg left.

Not sure what that means, but doglegs aren't that necessary for fitting 18 holes into a tight squeeze, I guess.  At least if you're willing to dogleg a few holes at almost right or left angles.

[Jon Wiggett]

Well, let this aficionado have his say.  I grew up at Grover Cleveland in Buffalo, the second home of the CC of Buffalo and the (now truncated) site of the 1912 USGA Open.  The course has 18 straight holes...yay.  Not one of them forces the line of play one way or the other.  As a result, when I moved to Audubon, another muni designed by the heralded William Harries, I was shocked to find doglegged holes moving this way and that other way.

My question would be, what forces the dogleg?  Is it variety, land, space or something else?  I have no problem with the doglegged hole, so long as it is not a 90 degree sort.  That one is typically the result of bad planning...can anyone nominate a good to great 90 degree doglegged hole?

I'm certain that I have more to say on this subject, but I'll wait to see what others have to say before adding.

I would suggest that many doglegs are the result of the shape of the land, either contours or boundaries  and the rpoblems/challenges this presents in fitting the required number of holes in.

Jon

[Scott Warren]

Ronald M:

An argument could be made that both 1 and 6 at Pine Valley approach near-right-angle dogleg status, the caveat being that both offer great benefit in trying to straighten the hole by cutting the corner and in doing so taking on a riskier tee shot.

Still, tee to centre of the fairway to green, both measure a pretty serious angle.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Applying a bit of science to add some transparence to the angle of the "Dog Leg" I’ve chosen divisions of a quadrant, since it’s easier to visualize.

So 45° is half a quadrant, 22.5° a quarter of a quadrant, 11.25° an eighth of a quadrant.



Assuming the effective landing area available (allowing say 5 yards to the first cut) of 40 yards
and a second shot along the centerline of 150 yards,
then the outside distance from the left side and the inside distance from the right side can be interpolated.

In the table these distances are listed with the difference between the outside and inside distances.




At which angle do you think the dog leg produces a significant advantage?

In other words where does “Straight” end and where does "Dog Leg" begin?

[Kyle Harris]

I'll argue that both the first and eighteenth holes at St. Andrews Old are doglegs.

Every hole has a straight line meta-hole that exists, or else it wouldn't be located on earth.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Kyle,

Funnily enough I was thinking along a similar vein about the 1st and 18th of the Old Course.

If this bit of land was available for the first time in 2010 and a modern designer was given the job to set up the fairways, they’d probably make 2 dog legs out of it.

But even stranger I have 2 courses where the 1st and 18th are parallel to each other without any tree seperation, and which are both dead straight, not a kink.

Depending on the pin position the very long players will play up the “wrong fairway” taking a “preferred Dog Leg” long-way-round line, so they can get a more advantageous angle into the green and avoid the difficulties on the designated hole. I call this the “anti social” line.

I now take this into consideration in more recent layouts by adding difficulties in the opposite  fairways so the “anti-social” line is not favoured. 

[JESII]

John,

I think even one yard can be to the players advantage, although that wouldn't be "significant" ...to me, I need two clubs less on an approach shot to think about a big risk off the tee so by your chart that's at least a 37.5* dogleg.

[Bill_McBride]

But even stranger I have 2 courses where the 1st and 18th are parallel to each other without any tree seperation, and which are both dead straight, not a kink.

Depending on the pin position the very long players will play up the “wrong fairway” taking a “preferred Dog Leg” long-way-round line, so they can get a more advantageous angle into the green and avoid the difficulties on the designated hole. I call this the “anti social” line.

I now take this into consideration in more recent layouts by adding difficulties in the opposite  fairways so the “anti-social” line is not favoured. 

This situation has led in the past to such eccentricities as the "Hinkle tree" and internal OOB to protect oncoming players in the adjacent fairway.  Are these good outcomes?  Maybe an uninviting line into the green from the adjacent fairway would work just as well.

[Jeff_Brauer]

John,

Thanks for the math on doglegs.  Obviously, a 90 degree dogleg adds 40 yards.  Most good players will only take a chance flirting with a hazard to gain at least 2 clubs, so for a dogleg to be a distance differentiator, it needs at least 33 degrees, it seems.

For a dogleg to simply open up a better angle to the green, it would seem that less than 10-15 degrees works best, although we can fiddle with the green angle and opening to make it work.

That leaves the gentle dog legs of 20 degrees or so to just look good when they fit the landscape, even if they don't seem to mathmatically do anything efficiently!

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Bill,
A good point and one I also take in to consideration.

Jim,
Thanks for your input. I suppose it could depend on which clubs are on choice. I find my confidence hitting a 7-iron instead of an 8-iron is unimpaired, however I’d always be less secure playing a 4-iron over a 5-iron. So I would say for myself the 22.5 degree “Dog Leg” would be significant.

Jeff,
I agree with you analysis – and putting it in another way I’d say the 10-15 degree Dog Leg still lies in the comfort zone of the “straight” hole, and that at 20 degrees the Dog Leg characteristics of shaping the shot and choosing the inside line begin to kick in.

[Kyle Harris]

John:

I'm arguing that the holes are doglegs in their current configuration.

Isn't the safest and even best play to play away from the direct line to each hole out to the middle of the shared fairway?

Does a dogleg necessarily have to be defined by anything other than how the hole is best played?

Perhaps this is how many of the present doglegs came to be, that is, the areas that were not really used ceased being maintained as fairway.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

Well, you could be right Kyle, that the Dog Leg evolved from the players choosing a preferred Line repeatedly, and afterwards the corridors were maintained to suit, and the “unwanted” inside areas developed long grass. Resulting in the deletion of the straight line option.

However in the case of the Old Course I would maintain a lot of players still take the direct line, since it is on offer.

The point I’m making though, is that a modern designer would tend to design a Dog Leg into a course (more than 20°) with only that option, rather than leaving the Straight Line alternative.

Not that there is anything wrong with the Dog Leg per se, it’s the overuse of this style of Fairway alignment that I am calling into question.

[Melvyn Morrow]

TOC -  1st & 18th



Melvyn

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