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Phil McDade

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Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2010, 10:56:07 AM »
Dan, how are you?  Long time, no see....

I was referring to Spring Valley at $21.50...and I'll stick with the Brat Stop...if you haven't ever been there, it's well worth 2X Spring Valley...

Maybe the most dubious statement posted yet this year on GCA, but, the night is young. ;D

Look, the Brat Stop is great schtick, and the brats are good, but you get better at State Street Brats in Madison, and -- better even still -- you're on State Street in Madison, :D not some gussied-up truck-stop just off the interstate.


Richard Phinney

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2010, 11:32:11 AM »
How about the summer internet rate of 50 EURO for Sandy Hills in Rosapenna. Including weekends.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2010, 04:31:09 AM »
Silloth, Goswick, Kington

Tony, would you pay £160 to play Elie?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2010, 06:42:17 AM »
i opine that if your answer to this exercise is "yes" for any golf course, then you live a comfortable-enough existence to throw away money.  it seems that the question is not "is this course under-priced?"  instead, the request is "would you throw away $xxx to play golf on a course that you really love?"  or "would you abandon said course if the rates were doubled?"

what also needs to be explored, as some have mentioned, is frequency.  given the doubling of freight, how much less frequently would you play the course?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2010, 07:01:43 AM »
Silloth, Goswick, Kington

Tony, would you pay £160 to play Elie?

Yes.


Pennard, Brora and Elie seem to me to share a common fun factor.   Elie is much better conditioned, more conveniently located and I can't see how "soul golf" has to be cheap.  I've yet to play Kingsbarns and I will pay £150, likely once.  I would be sad to think I will never play Elie again and to me it's definitely worth £160, not everyday but, more than once.




The corollary of this is how the clubs price themselves.   I am sure that with smart marketing TOC and Prestwick could halve their visitor no’s and more than double their income.  We all need to be thankful that the golf culture in Scotland makes this unacceptable to them.  Currently there are higher green  fees to play e.g. Kingsbarns, Castle Stuart, Doonbeg (rack rate), K Club, Waterville and I know where I think the value lies.
Let's make GCA grate again!

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2010, 07:10:27 AM »
i opine that if your answer to this exercise is "yes" for any golf course, then you live a comfortable-enough existence to throw away money.  it seems that the question is not "is this course under-priced?"  instead, the request is "would you throw away $xxx to play golf on a course that you really love?"  or "would you abandon said course if the rates were doubled?"


 Ronald I've already said I have a price limit - but it’s been a tough year financially and another year I would have played Pebble, once.  It's all about the market and another way of looking at it is we are being asked which courses are pricing themselves below their market rate – in our opinion.  When I consider VFM I think about the alternative uses for my leisure money.   Today if I want to see some semi retired ex cokehead trot out their greatest hits, or to eat in an upmarket 'competent' restaurant I'm looking at it costing me £50 an hour(in London they enforce the pace of eating!). At that rate £175 for a green fee for a really top class experience is as the saying goes "Cheap at twice the price."
Let's make GCA grate again!

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2010, 07:22:20 AM »
I woke this morning realizing I had made a hypocritical statement of which I have called out others in the past.  In the case of Erin Hills I didn't pay anything for my round while I did pay full fare at Lawsonia.  This would disqualify me from my past statement concerning value.  My apologies.

One other concern regarding private courses is that the implied fee of playing whenever  we want with whomever we choose should be considered.  When I say I would pay twice the amount to play and stay at Sand Hills I am confident that most members already pay more than that amount per round as it is. 

The infatuation with cost per round on this site is disturbing considering how unqualified most if not all who participate are and will continue to be or they will soon not be playing at all.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2010, 07:41:00 AM »
John...

Given you price per round at Erin Hills ($0), I'd pay triple to play that bad boy!!!   :)



And also, this price per round stuff seems goofy to me.  I think that doing a price per round analysis of Sand Hills vs. a local course, for me say Longshadow, is plain and simply absurd.  Longshadow is a really good course, heck it is borderline great.  And for $29 it might be the steal of the century.  But it doesn't compare to Sand Hills.  Sand Hills is epic and outer worldly in terms of the golf course and the attitude of the staff of the club, including Dick Youngscap.  I can only make assumptions on this part of it, but I feel confident that part of the fee you pay regarding being a member of Sand Hills (and courses like that) goes far beyond the price per round.  It gets into simply being part of something special, being able to play it whenever you want, entertaining friends and guests at one of the worlds truly elite courses.  It isn't just simply playing a round of normal golf.



Ron...

C'mon.  People who are opining on this thread have money they want to throw away?  Get real!  No one is going to go to Longshadow and insist on giving the club $60 to play a round today when the fee is $29.  This thread is more akin to what I do day in and day out.  I look for stocks that I think are WORTH $60 and try to buy them for $29.  That is the spirit of this thread.  Finding value and sharing the discovery with others so they can enjoy it as well.  I love you man, but c'mon!

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Dan Smoot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2010, 11:05:52 PM »
Rustic Canyon or CommonGround.  Both worth a premium... especially compared to others in their neighborhoods.

I played CommonGround withing the last two weeks.  I thoroughly enjoyed it and really need to play it a couple of more times.  I would not pay twice the $51 price when I could play Bandon in the winter.  I have played Rustic Canyon once and did not have the exciting response many here have had.  Don't misinterpret, it was a very good golf course but one of those I really need to play more than once before setting an opinion.

Dan Smoot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2010, 11:08:36 PM »
Wild Horse for $35.50 X2 walking.  I'm in.

Absolutely agree with this one!!!

Ash Towe

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2010, 01:05:11 PM »
Arrowtown in New Zealand is a steal at $30.

There are plenty of courses here that are a bagain and of a reasonable/good quality.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2010, 07:36:33 PM »
"The infatuation with cost per round on this site is disturbing considering how unqualified most if not all who participate are and will continue to be or they will soon not be playing at all."

John, I need a little elaboration, please.

a...unqualified to do what?
b...not be playing what?  golf?  why not?

Thank you, kind sir.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2010, 08:37:40 PM »
Mac Plumart, I think I like your line of thought best.  And, I have to come to the conclusion of no wonder our economic environment is so completely out of whack when people are making hypothetical propositions to even consider a discussion of contemplating what they'd pay twice the current market rate.  Isn't this why we have bubbles in various sectors of the economy. 

Who do we think we are as a bunch of golfers who just happen to have a fancy or taste for our version of good architecture (an elusive and intangible subject for sure) to be contemplating what we would volunteer to pay double for?  That is nuts!  I may have not been the greatest labor contract negotiator in my time, but I certainly recognized the concept of bargaining against one's self.  We are consumers.  We buy things presumably within a market and how dumb is it for some fringe group tospeculate to arbitrarily and voluntarily drive up prices based on some aesthetic and subjective notion of what we would pay double the already established market for as golf course architecture. 

And, to say for instance, that one would pay double to play a place like Lawsonia is doubly ignorant, because one ought to at least consider that what you are paying already makes a profit.  Profit is hunky dory.  But, do you think that Lawsonia would have held the line at the prices they did if they couldn't run at a profit.  Same for Wild Horse and all the other so-called 'value' courses that people are somehow thinking they can bid up due to their own desire to demonstrate they have GCA accumen to define what they "think" is undervalued, and others just cherish because it is one of life's few good bargains.

I say, which courses of great cost now, would you maybe consider paying at half the price.  I'll tell you what.  In this cat's world, it sure ain't Pebble Beach, Shadow Creek, That course in Oz, or any course for that matter that would appear to be dozens of times more than what it costs to offer said course based on cost to operate it. 

Private clubs cost of initiation and dues addresses a different notion in my mind.  If you can afford the freight at a private club, have at it.  You buy into a private club for many other reasons than price.  But, I think most people well off enough and sharp enough to have arrived at the stage of joining a private club at whatever price that seems much more than price per round, are still not going to entertain the silly notion of if they love ithe GCA so much they'd pay twice the price!!! 

This bubble topic just popped in my head!   :o ::) :-\

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #38 on: November 22, 2010, 12:00:10 AM »
Same for Wild Horse and all the other so-called 'value' courses that people are somehow thinking they can bid up due to their own desire to demonstrate they have GCA accumen to define what they "think" is undervalued, and others just cherish because it is one of life's few good bargains.


Criminy Dick, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  Question asked was simple, what course would you pay 2X to play?  For me, Wild Horse fit that bill nicely.  I didn't compute the per round margins, annual maintenance costs corrected for with the % GDP spent on healthcare, or anything like that.  I thought to myself "While cruising down I80, would I drive by Gothenburg if they raised the price to $70 for a round?"  The answer was no.

Brad

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #39 on: November 22, 2010, 12:34:52 AM »
I think we ought to think carefully about the implications of this notion of what you'd pay twice the current amount for golf or even your house, when the local market has it priced about right. 

I understand you and others are trying to say that you may find a course so good and irresistable that you'd pay 2X the going rate more as a statement that you support the high quality of a particular course. 

But, to me it is more of a reality thing and indicative of why we are in such a crap pot in this country.  Places like Wild Horse don't get by and wouldn't make it if they priced themselves based on some GCA afficianado saying they'd pay $70-90 for the rare treat as they drove through.  They get by on the pricing to the local community.  People in Madison or here in Green Bay don't work to buy homes and go by what those overpaying and exploited bubble busted folk paid for their homes in San Diego, Chicago burbs, etc.  Even though those folk can drive through and see a nicer home than they could get in their area for ~half the price.  Then when they do come to the naturally lower market and bring their inflated tastes and sensibilities and bid things up based on warped ideas of what things are worth in their world, the whole scene suffers from inflated notions of value. 

I think there are different types of good golf courses with good or desirable architecture or just just popular due to high marketting hype to the public.  Some are hype and overpriced bubble busters, overly conceived, and overly gouging people that want to play more-not pay more. And there are those that are priced fairly to their local market where the majority of their customers reside and use the facilities.  I don't think the locals want notions of what some afficianado for GCA would be willing to pay as a novelty one-off or rare usage, effect their everyday costs.

Someone recently told me that they were at Wild Horse and totally like the course but were not warmly greeted by locals.  I think I know why.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2010, 01:55:15 AM »
Dick, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.  What drives prices up is folks lining up to spend money, not a hypothetical speculation as to the quality or love of a course.   The point behind this was threefold, to reveal that money does matter to people when choosing a place to play - perhaps just as much as quality, to prompt people (ironically considering your posts) to think in terms of value and finally to hopefully discover some of the truly great deals out there today.

Ciao  
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 07:54:34 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2010, 07:06:07 AM »
"The infatuation with cost per round on this site is disturbing considering how unqualified most if not all who participate are and will continue to be or they will soon not be playing at all."

John, I need a little elaboration, please.

a...unqualified to do what?
b...not be playing what?  golf?  why not?

Thank you, kind sir.

Buff,

a.  This is really quite simple as it relates to the people on this site.  Most if not all of us have been the guests at the great private clubs in the country.  I personally rarely pay when a guest at a private club and when I do it will cost me less to play than the member who has hosted me.  This makes me unqualified to comment on the cost per round of that club.  I do not believe it is a stretch to say my qualifications when it comes to cost translates across the board to other members of this site.

Now if you want to discuss cost per round of public courses you might as well be painting cave walls.

b.  When the members of this site are relegated to only playing or discussing courses that are public or where they are members there will be little left to discuss which in turn will leave less motivation to play. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2010, 07:53:13 AM »
Jeepers JakaB - you are as bad as Dick.  What the hell does the member's cost of a private club have to do with anything?  If you don't want to answer the question - fine, but don't go on about how we are all ingrates - its getting old.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2010, 08:21:55 AM »
Jeepers JakaB - you are as bad as Dick.  What the hell does the member's cost of a private club have to do with anything?  If you don't want to answer the question - fine, but don't go on about how we are all ingrates - its getting old.

Ciao

Sean,

My point is that I wish people would shut the hell up about what it cost to play golf.  Even you are still bitching about the cost of Pinehurst #2. 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2010, 08:44:50 AM »
Jeepers JakaB - you are as bad as Dick.  What the hell does the member's cost of a private club have to do with anything?  If you don't want to answer the question - fine, but don't go on about how we are all ingrates - its getting old.

Ciao

Sean,

My point is that I wish people would shut the hell up about what it cost to play golf.  Even you are still bitching about the cost of Pinehurst #2. 

JakaB


"A thing is worth what it can do for you, not what you choose to pay for it."  J Ruskin

The wild thing is most of us can blame ourselves for the miles above inflation cost of golf because we choose to ignore Ruskin's advice.  Even so, its wonderful to scold oneself in public (isn't that we are really doing when bitching about prices?). 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2010, 09:02:21 AM »

JakaB


"A thing is worth what it can do for you, not what you choose to pay for it."  J Ruskin

The wild thing is most of us can blame ourselves for the miles above inflation cost of golf because we choose to ignore Ruskin's advice.  Even so, its wonderful to scold oneself in public (isn't that we are really doing when bitching about prices?). 

Ciao

Sean,

If that were true why are most courses in financial trouble?  My theory lies more in the Bible quote "Let those who have not been comped cast the first shekel." 

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2010, 09:24:56 AM »

JakaB


"A thing is worth what it can do for you, not what you choose to pay for it."  J Ruskin

The wild thing is most of us can blame ourselves for the miles above inflation cost of golf because we choose to ignore Ruskin's advice.  Even so, its wonderful to scold oneself in public (isn't that we are really doing when bitching about prices?). 

Ciao

Sean,

If that were true why are most courses in financial trouble?  My theory lies more in the Bible quote "Let those who have not been comped cast the first shekel." 

JakaB

Courses are in trouble because more folks than previously are acting on Ruskin's advice, but we still have a long way to go to redress the imbalance.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Matt_Ward

Re: Double The Price?
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2010, 07:15:47 PM »
Shivas:

Thanks for mentioning Forest Preserve National -- I played it years ago when Digest had just rated it among the best public courses in the USA. I could see the bones of the place very well when playing there -- really enjoyed the closer. Have they done anything to the place since then -- my only round there was in '88 when in town for the Sr Open at Medinah.

Sean:

Interesting thread -- be curious to see the posts if you took the reverse situation -- places one would play if the fees were reduced in half. ;D

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