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TEPaul

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2002, 05:02:59 AM »
Lynn:

With a course such as Riviera, as with Merion, I believe the bunkering (among many other things) should be of extreme importance anyway but if a club, architect, contractor or whomever is involved, is going to advertize and release to the press things like "restoration" and also very much to evoke the name of the original architect (Thomas) then they should make every effort to get things right and they can hardly do that with insufficient or shoddy research much less some kind of generic or interpretive architectural or contracting work!

I'm certain the research done on the bunkering at Riviera alone could probably have been better if true accuracy to Thomas/Bell is what the club, architect and contractor were after. Naturally anyone doing this work should contact and work with a club historian (if the club has one) and if the club has a good one then so very much the better! I've never seen Geoff's Riviera history book but I'm told it's a very good one. Certainly a book such as "The Captain" has some excellent information on Riviera and its original holes that could be used in rearching a restoration project.

Let's just take hole #7 as an example of good and accurate restoration vs something that is less than accurate for whatever reason. If a club is going to do the kind of work that Riviera has done why wouldn't the club, architect, contractor or whomever is involved NOT do it accurately?

Obviously for a whole number of reasons such as they don't really care, they don't really know how to do good research or accurate restorative work even if they were presented with good research. Obviously another reason is someone has other agendas like altering the course (bunkers, whatever) for the purposes of what they suppose is a changed game, changed strategies or some other reason to do with something like today's touring pros.

But whatever the agenda it seems worthwhile (necessary actually) to at least do accurate research and estimate if really accurate restorative work was done where that might leave the course for the necessities of all that's involved in today's game. Once you've done that then you should make up your mind what to do and what to accurately and honestly call it--restoration, rennovation or redesign!

But again, the first step in doing this is clearly the accuracy and methods of doing really good research. Without doing this first--and very much in every way and from every angle, there is hardly any way to do accurate restoration work even if you wanted to!

This certainly does include things like interpreting the look of features like bunkers both from aerials as well as on the ground. Too many architects, I fear, look at aerials and do restorative work from aerials alone. That's fine but only if looking at a golf course from the air not from the ground. The sad truth is before and after aerials can look remarkably similar but on the ground before and after work can look remarkably different.

But suppose some historic research was done from "The Captain". I'm measuring the large bunker on the left of #7 using the scale on Geoff's drawing. The bunker measures 1 1/8" and 1 1/8' on the yardage scale actually comes out to around 75yds in length on the original bunker assuming the drawing is the way the bunker was actually built by Thomas/Bell. I would then very much probe the ground around the bunker to see what subsoils might tell me. If it turned out that subsoils (sand, sandy compaction, whatever) told me that the original bunker was of something like 35yds in length than I guess I would have to assume that the bunker was actually not built to the dimensions on the drawing or some other occurence had taken place.

Actually if you really want to get into this stuff for accurate research you can simply measure an old aerial or even and old on ground photo off of some known dimension on the course that has not changed and then use that as a relative scale to measure the length of the old bunker. This kind of thing isn't really hard to do but it does take a certain amount of time and very well might be something that a club, architect, contractor or whomever never even thinks to do!!  They may not think to do it because they don't care or more likely they simply don't know how--they just don't think of it even with the best intentions!

All this should be done BEFORE any design planning is done and certainly well before contractors and equipment are on site ready to go!! And again, for courses such as Riviera and Merion that truly do have significant architecture and histories this kind of thing is a must. For a course like Gulph Mills naturally there's a bit more latitude for obvious reasons but still with Gulph Mills we will do this kind of detailed research FIRST simply to see where it leaves us!! Then we can make some intelligent decisions based on all the available research!

But there is so much more to all this. What has evolution done to the course over the decades even assuming it had never been touched in redesign? Evolution of both play and maintenance practices can make golf features change immensely over time. Do you want to reverse that evolution or leave it alone? How does it play into today's game either as originally built or how it's evolved? There are so many factors here, the obvious ones on bunkers being the consistency of sand, all the dimensions of the original bunker vs how it's evolved. This is so important to some course's like Merion whose bunkering was so interesting and to a large extent famous really due to its evolution and this mostly meant the surrounds (the grass and their large and small dimensions surrounding the sand)!

Then the important thing to note is given the best intentions and even the best research all architects are simply not going to produce the same restoration product no matter how intricately you request it of them! It's just shocking to me how often that misperception applies to architecture and very much with some otherwise knowlegeable people on here. There are so many other things like time considerations and such too!

But given all this the sad fact is that most golfers or club members really don't even notice if the product is a poor restoration or sometimes not even a restoration!

But the ultimate question is would they notice if the product was a really good restoration? I tend to think that they would notice!

But the logical answer (given that they may not notice either way) is if all things are relatively equal like time and money why not just do it right? That way you have preserved some really good original architecture and if anyone did happen to notice the difference at least you haven't gotten yourself way up the creek without a paddle and done something that will have to be taken apart again and put back right and the way it's supposed to be in the first place. How many clubs have gone through this unfortunate cycle and basically cost themselves at least twice the time and money?

And probably the most overlooked and misunderstood part of all this restorative subject is the contractor--or the people who actually do the work. MacDonald & Co. are probably getting a little better as they go around to these classic courses but it even takes a very trained eye to notice the miniscule way they have gotten better. The fact is that they are making all the bunkers on these classic courses whose original architectural styles were so vastly different and unique look almost exactly the same!

There are some clear differences between the new bunkering of Merion, Rolling Green, Bethpage, Riviera, Aronomink and others but the similarities are extremely striking and noticeable. It hardly takes a trained eye to notice the similarities in their work. All of it has that puffy, upholstered look to it despite variations of dimensions like larger or longer capes here compared to there but generally the look is extremely generic! The methods are the same, the machinery is the same so there really isn't much possibility of doing it differently!

And that's sad because some very unique styles have been lost in the process which is so much the interest of these classic courses. And it's sadder still because these classic clubs are going to start to become aware of this similar generic style and they are going to realize (but unfortunately too late) that this is really not what they wanted, it's not what they hoped for and it's most definitely not what they should have--not if they wanted really good restoration anyway!




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2002, 05:42:52 AM »
Tom Paul,

Excellent, excellent synopsis of the situation.

I would simply add one ingredient here that I sense is at play.  It seems to me that there is simply an arrogance and lack of respect for the classic architects themselves; a feeling that "we" modern architects and contractors can do it better based on our modern technologies.

You talk about taking the time to do things right, yet anyone who watches a project progress start to finish to rebuild over 100 enormously complex bunkers in just 8 months realizes that these folks are interested in the least in getting the historical details correct "on the ground".  It's more like, "ok, here's the general shape...dig that one up, inlay our modern drainage system, bunker woll, and build a bunker the way we know how using our modern methods, lay turf on the surrounds, and move on to the next one.  Handwork?  What's that?  That takes time, doesn't it?"  

The kick in the butt for most of us is when they use the word "restoration" to describe these efforts.  They are simply building modern style bunkers and surrounds with no real regard for what made each bunker our golf course unique and special in the first place.  Location and one-dimensional shaping are really the only elements that are considered at all, and even these are sometimes discarded for the whim and ego of the architect.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2002, 06:18:30 AM »
Here's a possibility:

Job Security!

Why not? The practice of taking no fee for these restorations,(ha) maybe a way to gaurantee future work when those duped realize it and then seek out a remedy which just happens to cost millions???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyChilds

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2002, 07:01:15 AM »
Tom Paul

That was a great summary.  You have said what was done in the name of restoration. You could just fill in the name of any one of many classic golf courses that unjustly received this mediocre treatment.

Its a pity that all of the archiological remains of the old bunkers is gone now. I learned from George Bahto that its not so hard to find the precise boundaries and depth of old bunkers because they were almost always just filled in with soil.

Research takes time and effort. I'll repeat what was said earlier- Why in the world would Geoff Shackelford NOT be used for a project like this one? It's amazing. There are real scholors and historians available and they are not used. Geoff (George Thomas) and George (Raynor/MacDonald/Banks) know more about the history, playability and strategies then anyone on earth and they are stiffed from jobs at classic courses where their expertise would be invaluable!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff Shackelford

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2002, 08:03:02 AM »
Geoff,
To be clear, Tom Marzolf sought my input twice, once after he'd drawn up the infamous "US Open Master Plan" and at last week's GCSAA show. Tom is a super nice guy, well-intentioned in many ways, and an important voice in the discussion to do something about equipment. But we differ in how you deal with that issue, he feels changing great old courses is acceptable, I don't. So I've declined both times and will continue to for a long list of reasons. The most obvious being that I have no interest in being linked to work that claims to be something it's not. Unlike the Fazio folks, I can't take the risk of working pro-bono and know few people who would, particularly for Riviera management who loves to blame everyone but themselves (I'm afraid to think who'll take the blame for the $1.3 million #8 not working, it's usually the person who was least involved).

I have no interest in hearing what the U$GA staff or Mr. Latshaw thinks could make Riviera a better design, because their ideas are just plain weird and come from a strange place. And at the end of the day, Riviera should just be left alone by these people until they have an understanding of what they have. If they want to add back tees, fine, it hurts no one even if they are over the top like on #6, but when they start getting the dozers out there and trying to create, it's embarrassing. And of course, this has all backfired miserably. Instead of quietly adding some yardage and going about their business trying to figure out where to park cars for tournaments, they've issued tacky press releases and tried to make a big splash. They failed to make the course more interesting, and in many cases, made it easier because they didn't understand what makes Riviera challenging to begin with...the thought-provoking elements! (Not a good thing making it easier while trying to get an Open.)

The work has left most people, informed and uninformed, quite unimpressed with the club's ability to understand what its assets are, and what genuinely needs work. I fear for the future of the course because of what has been put in writing, and how the management tends to react when they've been embarrassed. Instead of quietly re-evaluating, I'm afraid they will take out their misery on this great old course, and Lord knows, no person I know would want to be part of that.

Geoff
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyChilds

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2002, 08:17:44 AM »
Geoff

My point was they should not just have sought out your advice- They should have listened to you!

Yale should have listened to George Bahto

Merion should have listened to Bill Kittleman

Augusta should have listened to ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2002, 08:39:07 AM »
Geoff, there is no interest in information with these people, they just want to be right and leave their mark. The historical information gets in the way of that. In the case of Riviera, they have everthing they need published in book form and in the archives. But because the goal is to appease certain people who live for the par protection mentality, or to make a big statement to the USGA, restoration or understanding what has evolved in its own unique way is an inconvenience.

All we can do is put the word out about what the old photos and writings say the architect did, and let people decide what is best. I was pleased to hear that Jim Nantz, who is interested in architecture and other than the occassional use of "signature hole" seems to have a sharp eye, never used the word restoration on the air this weekend. And unlike Venturi, he chooses his words pretty carefully. Of course, Peter Oosterhuis sees right through all of the nonsense, and I get the same feeling from McCord and certainly Kostis's on-air comments, so some people are doing their homework. It just seems like it's never the people doing the actual work.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2002, 10:08:21 AM »
I'm sorry fellas but I have a slightly different take on these misdirected "restoration" projects.

That take is we really should try to do more to prevent having to eventually keep saying the words "should have" on more classic courses.

Probably the only practical and effective way to do that is to encourage collaboration amongst as many courses that may be planning to do this kind of thing with courses that have done it right (and maybe even those that have done it wrong) to evaluate how to do it right (and not make fundamental mistakes).

I've always hoped that this site could help in the future in simply being a reseach resource to prevent some of the pitfalls in proper restoration projects.

To be fair to some of these courses, they often do try to do things in ways they think are correct but they inevitably do it on their own with any architect they pick (again thinking that architects are basically interchangeable) without consulting any other course who has done the kind of project before them (restoration) that they plan to do.

That's certainly the first wrong step but then even if the archtitect actually knows how to do it right he really isn't going to get the product correct even he wants to without the proper contractor! I've seen restorations like this and in a way they're the saddest of all because the club was so close even if they didn't even realize it.

But basically the first step is really good research and again without that there is no way to succeed with truly good restoration!

There seems to be another sad truth here that involves restoration work on some of the most significant golf courses in America. These very courses which are the most visible generally have things about their architecture that is wholly unique and those things may be some of the reason why they became famous and highly visible in the first place!

When it comes to things like their bunkering the sad fact is there probably aren't more than a half dozen architects and contractors who even know how to do the work properly. And of those half dozen a number of them either won't get involved or they just aren't even doing restorations anymore.

The only way to stop some of these courses from wiping out great architecture is to convince them somehow to understand better what they do have and if and when they change it in certain ways putting it back somehow, someday may be extremely difficult.  

In this vein one of the things Geoff Shackelford mentioned above is of real importance. Many of the interrelated things going on today like this distance problem very much gets clubs thinking of ways to solve that problem and unfortunately redesign is the inevitable way they choose to do it (there are definitely other ways like altered maintenance practices but for some reason they never seem to think of that).

And when redesign gets considered the thing that should be stressed very forcefully in the beginning is that adding tee length is the simplest and most reasonable way to confront the problem! A huge distinction should be made by all of us as often as possible about this!

Added tee length can very easily be reversed if need be but once clubs, committees, architects, contractors start to get into the bodies of the golf holes and rearranging and redesigning things like bunkering and worst of all greens then things will never be the same again!

Tom Doak mentioned quite some time ago that these precautions may not necessarily pertain to old courses just because they're old. Many of them never had much about their architecture that was that great anyway. And those ones might be good candidates for improvement with some kind of rennovation or even sympathetic redesign.

But the really great courses of America generally do have certain things about their architecture that's wholly unique and is consequently very complex to restore properly. Those are the ones that are particularly sad to see altered and corrupted architecturally. But many of them already have gone under the knife so to speak. Maybe the ones that are generally unaffected so far are the ones to concentrate on--like a Shinnecock.

Then there may be the little know gems here and there that have never been touched much. Maybe those people who really care about architecture should start to get in touch with those courses and tell them that they may have the proverbial "Rembrandt in the attic" and are they aware of that fact? And then when they do become aware of it here's generally what to do and what not to do!

Maybe there's not much hope that some of America's architecture can be preserved long term but many of us might be surprised. I think once a critical mass gets created in awareness things might get better much faster.

I do know from my own club that research fosters awareness and awareness can have some interesting and impressive results among even long time members who never really understood what they had. And from there good restoration is very possible provided one doesn't run into counterproductive assumptions.

The process of getting to a really good restoration is always a hard one, though, and people really take it out on those that are proposing them. But the good news is that from what I've seen so far the clubs and courses that make it all the way have memberships that universally love and endorse what's been done if the restoration is a faithful and good one. I almost guarantee that fact! Who has seen a really good and faithful restoration that was not universally endorsed and appreciated? I don't think you'll find one.

But the first step is really good research--without that it seems almost impossible for a club with even the best of intentions to succeed with a really good restoration!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lou Duran

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2002, 10:26:16 AM »
TEP:

In the spirit of your stated hope that this site serve as a research source, perhaps you would be willing to summarize the restoration process (do's and don'ts) and include a list of successful projects, the principals behind them, and what separates these from less successful efforts.  The "In My Opinion" section or a newly created research category might be a good place for something like this.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GeoffreyChilds

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2002, 10:35:16 AM »
Tom Paul

There is a lot of wishful thinking in your post

you say-
"I've always hoped that this site could help in the future in simply being a reseach resource to prevent some of the pitfalls in proper restoration projects"

Well, in the case I'm involved with, the head honcho of the project calls this a little chat room. Even George Bahto spending NUMEROUS hours of work couldn't convince him to do a faithful restoration.

You are absolutely correct that research is the key.  

However, when the documentation is there in good quality old aerials, construction photos, older members who have been around the course for 50 years, and still they use only what they choose to in the name of maintenance, playability, obsolence and saying some of the evolution over the years was possibly good then what do you do?  When they build new bunkers supposedly from an old aerial yet never do the archeology in the ground so the shapes get all changed and still call it a restoration then what do you do?

The first and foremost thing to do is to get someone in charge who really sees the merits of a restoration and then goes and hires the correct expert and then trusts him to do it right.











Which do you like better, the originals or the "restoration"?  All the research was there and this site and experts on this site were brought to the attention of the powers that be.




« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

GP

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2002, 02:03:23 PM »
Geoff Childs -

It's pretty clear what everyone on this site prefers from your pictures, but, judging by all the pretty pictures in Golf, GD, and the many others, it's not quite so clear to me which pictures most golfers would prefer. :(

George Pazin
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

bm

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2002, 05:23:25 PM »
I have checked out Geoff Shackelfords fine book, "The Captain" specifically page 151 and Geoffs diagram on page 159.

Comparing the 2 bunkers.

1. Location

From the photo both share a common location. Not sure if the distances quoted by Marzolf are as a result of new tees or shifting the bunker towards the green, but it looks roughly the same

2. Strategy/Alignment

Looks like the bunker has the same general alignment.

3. Size/Shape.

The bunker is close to the original in terms of size (if you take Geoff's drawing as close to the original bunker). The overall bunker shape, long and slightly thicker towards the tee is also close.

4. Shaping of the bunker.

Here is the crux of the matter. The original bunker (from the aerial photo) was much more "bland" in shaping, with small similarly sized noses somewhat regularly placed along the edge of the bunker. Of course the bunker may have evolved somewhat at the time the photo was taken but many here would have protested at that shape bunker as  well. What is notable from the aerial photo is the incredibly diverse sizes and shapes of Thomas's bunkers, perhaps his bunkering can't be so stereotyped so easily after all. You can see 2 other whale tails in the photo as well so that isnt entirely out of charachter.

If you compare the restoration efforts of C&C, you can see that their restoration of the bunkers at the 6th are closer to the current "evolved" style of the bunkers than the Fazio effort, but also are not a good reflection of Thomas's original style as shown in photos on page 155. Except for the smoother lines of the bunker edges, Fazios efforts at least are a combination of grass and sand faces which appears to be more Thomas's style.

So there you have it, if only Fazio had got the crinkly edges right, dropped some of the more elaborate noses he would have nailed it (?) Or are my eyes decieving me??

Note: I am not sure how fairway shaping has evolved to either support or not support the bunker work that has been done.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2002, 07:57:02 PM »
bm
If the architect decides the bunkering he is restoring is too 'bland', does the restoration then become a remodeling?

I disagree with your assessment that the original bunker was bland - the bunker did have smaller 'noses' but there was nothing regular about their shape or their realtion to one another and it was far from bland. Bland compared to what? I would describe their appearance as haphazard. In fact the original bunker's outline appears very similar to the large fairway on #10. The new Fazio bunker with its pronounced capes and bays looks like some of Fazio and Co.'s best work, unfortunately not Thomas's best work. If the bunker outline was still in plain view why no use it?

You can almost make out an outline from outerspace, certinly on the ground detailed measurements could have been taken.


Do you see a Whale's tale on the old bunker at #7?

If you were asked to restore a single bunker, as C&C were evidently asked to do, would it be wise to restore it match the evolved style of the other 17 holes? Do you think the new bunker at #7 matches the evolved style of the other holes or are there plans to modify all the bunkers to match the new ones? If so it would've been a perfect opportunity to recreate the Thomas's original look.

To see how the fariway bunker style has evolved compare the fairway bunker at #10 before and after. Do you think the Fazio bunker reflects that evolution?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Lynn Shackelford

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2002, 08:01:14 PM »
bm   Note:  fairway shaping....
The fairway today kicks balls toward the bunker.  The old fairway appears to be more of a bowl.  It was altered in the 70's.
Tom Paul:
There is a great opportunity to do as you suggest in your state, Oakmont.  They are next on the USGA, Fazio, McDonald list.  Are you going to visit with any members about their restoration?  If so we may be able to follow their project here at GCA.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

bm

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2002, 08:45:51 PM »
Tom McWood,

OK, maybe not bland, but it seems like the bays and capes (so to speak) are fairly regular in shape and size (from what you can tell from about a 1:15,000 aerial photo).

I never said there was a whale tail on #7, just that there are 2 elsewhere on the course - and so whale tails are not entirely out of characheter for G.Thomas bunkering as some were suggesting earlier.

I agree with you on C&C's work, I like it and it is in character with the evolved bunkers and was the right approach - unless the decision had been made to re-do all the bunkers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

bm

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2002, 08:46:14 PM »
Tom McWood,

OK, maybe not bland, but it seems like the bays and capes (so to speak) are fairly regular in shape and size (from what you can tell from about a 1:15,000 aerial photo).

I never said there was a whale tail on #7, just that there are 2 elsewhere on the course - and so whale tails are not entirely out of characheter for G.Thomas bunkering as some were suggesting earlier.

I agree with you on C&C's work, I like it and it is in character with the evolved bunkers and was the right approach - unless the decision had been made to re-do all the bunkers.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2002, 09:04:19 PM »
Just caught a piece on the golf Channel about the 2008 Open which featured some footage with Geoff Shackelford and some of the tour pros this week at Riviera. Geoff was excellent and consistent and came across just great on the overall problems of dickering with courses in the face of this distance explosion as well as the toss-up between Riv and Torrey Pines for the 2008 Open.

The clip interviews with the pros were interesting too--balanced I guess but the overall take was things have gotten out of hand.

I never really knew exactly what to make of Hal Sutton, but I gotta to tell you I love the guy now! What he said about classic courses, Riviera and this overall distance problem was unbelievable--I couldn't believe I was really hearing what I heard him say!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2002, 09:23:15 PM »
Tom Paul:

I missed the Sutton comments.  Can you give any more details?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

TEPaul

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2002, 09:33:55 PM »
Lynn:

I sure have been in touch with some at Oakmont but just so as not to beat around the bush here on Golfclubatlas I'm going to be real honest and tell you that they asked that info doesn't come on here--and I'm honoring that unless or until they say otherwise. But I'll tell you that I've been very impressed with what I've both seen and heard so far.

This is a real good opportunity to tell you that I would like nothing better than to see a club like Oakmont, going into a future Open, come on here and share their thinking and info.

But before that ever happens probably the best thing for me to say is I totally understand the sentiments of the contributors to Golfclubatlas to defend their right to say whatever they feel on this site and the Internet!

But I also should present the attitude of any golf club, including Oakmont, that shares anything they do with Golfclubatlas, and certainly including Open prepping and yes even with Fazio/MacDonald, this way---from a great line from Jack Nickelson in "A Few Good Men".

"Lieutenant, I'll give you a copy of the release report, but you've got to ask me nicely."
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2002, 09:45:06 PM »
Tim:

In a real nutshell but I don't think it's in the slightest bit inaccurate that he said something like this:

"Well, I'm gonna be honest with you, the problem is the USGA just really missed the boat with these manufacturers a long time ago and none of these people should ever take this problem out on classic golf courses (like Riviera)!

GeoffShac was in the piece so he must have it on tape so he can probably put Sutton on here word for word. It was squarely inline with what GeoffShac wrote in the Golfworld article and maybe he even wrote the statement for Sutton---just kidding--there was no doubt it was Sutton's real feelings and it was without doubt the most encouraging remark I've ever heard from a touring pro on classic architecture--by a mile!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2002, 10:01:42 PM »
Tom Paul:

Thanks very much.  I'm delighted to hear both Sutton and Shackelford got some air time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2002, 03:54:18 AM »
bm
The grassy protrusions are irregular, none of Thomas's original bunkering can be portrayed as regular. I would not even describe those original portrusions as capes and bays, they are not that well defined. In the old aerial if you continue down toward the green the next bunker is smaller version with the same style of smaller irregular protrusions. What evolved fairway bunker does the new 7th look like? Is there any fairway bunker at Riviera that has multiple pronounced capes and bays? It looks to more like a bad copy of a bunker you might find at Royal Melbourne or up US5 at the SFGC -- there is nothing like at Riviera. Is it the responsibility of the 'restoration' architect to evaluate with bunkers he should restore and which bunkers he needs to enhance?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

bm

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2002, 04:05:21 AM »
Tom Mc,

I will certainly agree with you that nothing Thomas did was regular - that was just my take on the photos. Good aerial of yours, look at that collection of bunker shapes, I dont think I have seem more different shaped and sized bunkers in my life. It would be good to overlay that over an original aerial if it existed to see how things had evolved.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2002, 04:05:45 AM »
bm
Which course would the new bunker look more at home at?





How do you explain the whales tail?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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Re: George Thomas, Welcome Home!--Riviera #7
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2002, 06:08:17 AM »

Quote
Sean,

I find it pretty hilarious that you are holding someone else responsible to post you pictures when you can PURCHASE the book for yourself that has them for you.

Another reason why, is I resent your tone. It takes a lot of time to gather and post all of this stuff. If you feel it isn't good enough for you, then simply bypass all of my posts and go find the stuff, and post it yourself proving all of my opinions wrong.

Its pretty funny that I have to be the one that offers you proof when you offer me nothing but your opinion whether I'm right or wrong, and don't think for one second this is about me, it is everything about the F-ing golf course!

Even better yet, you are tight with the Fazio organization, why don't you get the information from them and post it for us!



Tommy - I think you are misunderstanding me here.

First of all, I am not holding anyone responsible for posting pictures. I was trying to express my frustration in getting my arms around this riviera debacle since I have seen only post-pictures, but can rely only on discussion of what was there 60 years ago. I know I can go buy Geoff's history, and I fully intend on doing that. That I think there sometimes exists one-sided debate and mob mentality discussion here was clearly an idea that resonated with some people (e.g. Brian Phillips, Tom Paul, et al.)

Second, I believe I am being totally objective when i express this frustration. Yes, I have a friend who works for Fazio, but don't mistake that for me being "tight" with Fazio, or that I will take a blind defense to anything he puts his name on. Never once, in any of my posts, have I said, suggested, or intimated that I believe what Fazio/Marzolf has done is a proper restoration, or that you and others are wrong for criticizing his work. Nor have I taken the opposite view, that is because, as I have said, I have no basis or qualification to do so. Which is the entire thrust of what I was trying to say.

Lastly, a number of your subsequent posts have suggested that I am somehow getting personal, or expressing an opinion of you. Nothing could be further from the truth. I resent the way you have made me out in subsequent posts, and I think it is unfair. I love your posts, and far from skipping them, they are the first I visit, because the photography that you provide is first rate. Believe me, I know the hard work that goes into your posts and I appreciate it. I only sometimes regret what these posts lead to - that is uninformed, unqualified "bashing" - of which I will not be a party to. I know that you and Geoff are eminently qualified to offer such opinions. I (and maybe some others), however, am not, so I will not. This is not too different from the legendary (?) Rees Jones thread "The Bridge" of a couple of months ago, in that sometimes those offering opinions are in no position to do so.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »