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Melvyn Morrow

Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #50 on: November 16, 2010, 01:56:43 PM »

So The Scottish Open is to be played on a Scottish course albeit an international golf course in Scotland.

Many on this sight will not have the faintest idea what that really means to some of us Scots.

The Scottish Open should be on a course that is tried and tested, that shouts Scotland from every corner,  that has its heart and soul in our traditional game.

It’s just too soon to be selected, making one wonder why other courses have been overlooked, but then one wonders who is running The Scottish Open these days. It reminds me of the old Volvo adverts
“Built by Robots and Driven by Dummies”  let’t hope the golf proves to be enjoyable.

Melvyn

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #51 on: November 16, 2010, 02:15:56 PM »
The problem I see with the RC model is thus: An overseas golfer could easily join four established & respected high quality clubs for £1500pa (total not each) add a £3000 business class flight and 5 nights a year in quality golfers accommodation say £1200. That's £5700pa for a top end quality golf vacation playing and having access for guests to 4 great clubs. After 15 years you have spend less than the initiation for one fine (but without pedigree) club and would still need to fund flights and accommodation for the one club.

Can someone explain how RC can compete with that logic?

Hi Mark,

I feel like I may be throwing myself to the lions here so here goes....cant be arsed with a debate on this...I do it everyday at work!!  So please let it be since I have bothered to take the time to type the below.

It seems that you have inadvertently wandered into my terrain.  As I make part of my living from attracting people to RC I would find it a little odd that in essence, you have called me out, unless as previously stated you were completely unaware. I am not offended so please take this below as FYI and why I, as a local, think RC has a place in modern Scottish golf.  This is not meant to start an OT debate.

It is not for me to argue the toss about why people should join Renaissance on here, I am here purely to have a bit of banter about courses I like and if people chat about RC then obviously I will chirp up.

Firstly, I would imagine that you have no idea how much our annual fees are from the numbers you are quoting or what our guest fees are (£35 for you info- probably cheaper than 99% of golf courses that are 1% as good as ours), or how our club operates.

I would argue that I have grown up in the most affordable place to play golf (measured against quality) in the world.  North Berwick for £40 a year as a kid and only £500 a year now, and St. Andrews for 4 years of Uni at £99-£140 a year while I was there is hard to beat.  Believe me- I get affordable Scottish golf and how a good club membership works.  Perhaps you are from the same background but it irks me when people say that clubs like RC just dont get the Scottish model.  They do get it- the world has decended upon Scotland!!

In terms of overseas members at North Berwick- 5 years waiting IF someone will propose and second you with other letters of support.  Gullane’s is the same, as are many of the other quality courses in East Lothian.  Luffness?  Muirfield?  Good luck with that.

And if you are a member of those courses how easy is it to book a time?  I struggled to get a time for next Saturday at NB booking on the Saturday just past- let alone in the summer time!  If you can get a time?  4.5 hours behind Chuck, Flip, Hank et al over for a golf vacation.  No problem with that as it subsidizes my membership.

A club like RC and LLGC does have a place in Scotland now we have such a large travelling golfer contingent.  It means you never struggle for a tee time, can play at your own pace, get great customer service off the course, have very nice accommodation that is lacking for a certain level of clientele and have a wonderfully maintained course for 12 months of the year.  Yes that comes at a price otherwise everyone would want to do it.  Just like buying a nice car, watch or house- you pay for what you get.

Using RC as a base we can get our members times at every golf club in East Lothian. 20+ courses within 20 minutes drive of the front door.  Each one for less than the price of some club guest fee back in the US….seems to me that joining a club like RC gives you not only one membership on an excellent, and quiet golf course, but also easy access to many others, without having to wait years on a waiting list!!! Then there is the people you meet while you are here...then again, I suppose you may say I would say all of that ;)


Back to the thread!  We have had no news yet as no decision has been made- still all press speculation.

Cheers,

S

2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #52 on: November 16, 2010, 02:21:58 PM »
Simon Holt -

Thanks for your helpful (and informative) perspective.

DT

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #53 on: November 16, 2010, 02:28:14 PM »
My pleasure David.
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2010, 02:32:08 PM »
I wonder what percentage of the play at Castle Stuart is from Yanks?

Jud

You could ask the same question about TOC. For what its worth, I played CS with a group of 16 golfers, everyone a Scot, and everyone enjoyed the "experience".

I note the argument going on between Jon and Mike regarding the respective merits of CS and RC and while I agree totally with Mikes analysis of CS as a golf course I have to say that the business model at least follows on from Turnberry, Gleneagles, Cruden Bay and many others that are about a hundred years old. The pay and play model has been tried and tested in this country although I note that of the models listed above, one of them is now a members course and the other two have had until very recently active members clubs attached.

If anything the RC model is much more alien to Scottish golf given its relative expensiveness and its non accessibility for non-members (I say that having recently played there as a non-member !). I do wonder at its viability given the number of Scottish clubs with quality courses at the fraction of the cost but then those that join a club like RC or Loch Lomond, are probably already members of those sorts of clubs and therefore join for other reasons or on the basis that the joining fee/subs are not an issue.

In times gone by I too would have seen both RC and CS as unwelcome additions to the scottish landscape but having met some of the people behind both projects I appreciate their sincerity in trying to offer as good a course as they can (in their own way) and frankly if "true" Scottish golf can't handle a couple of courses run in a different fashion then its in trouble IMHO.

Niall    

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2010, 02:33:58 PM »
I forgot to add, good luck to both ventures.

Niall

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #56 on: November 16, 2010, 04:36:25 PM »
Thanks Simon.....pm sent
Cave Nil Vino

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2010, 04:48:55 PM »
Jon - I've stated my case succinctly in several responses. If you can't understand my point then I'm sorry. I can't do any better. Please let me know when I should show up during my May visit for a free round from the back tees... when you will school me on how difficult and un-flat is Castle Stuart. By the way, what would be the target score for a 60 year old with a USGA handicap of 9? With the course so difficult from back there I surely couldn't be expected to break 100.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2010, 05:09:05 PM »
Simon - Your points are all well taken. As American Express says in their commercials: "Membership has its privileges." Exclusivity and elite reciprocity... it is the American dream... if you can afford it. That's why I am not begrudging RC's business model. There is no pretense about what they are offering. I don't think North Berwick (for example) will fall in love with RC's concept and follow suit, so... no harm, no foul, as far as I am concerned. I just hope one of my rich friends will join so I can get one of those £35 guest fees!  ;D
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Simon Holt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2010, 05:11:08 PM »
I hope lots of your friends will join- you can tell them I am waiting for them!!!!
2011 highlights- Royal Aberdeen, Loch Lomond, Moray Old, NGLA (always a pleasure), Muirfield Village, Saucon Valley, watching the new holes coming along at The Renaissance Club.

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2010, 05:26:11 PM »
I hope lots of your friends will join- you can tell them I am waiting for them!!!!

You know, Simon, I really like the idea of clubs banding together to offer limited reciprocal privileges to each other's members. In the States many clubs have had to forge those kinds of relationships in order to survive... it makes membership more "valuable." You don't see that kind of relationship offered at many of the clubs in the UK. I guess it has to do with the fact that so many clubs are open to "visitors" and they see reciprocals as potentially taking a bite out of their visitor revenue. It's a shame really, because numerous clubs are suffering for members and such an alliance could make membership more attractive to many golfers.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2010, 06:25:57 PM »
Jon - I've stated my case succinctly in several responses. If you can't understand my point then I'm sorry. I can't do any better. Please let me know when I should show up during my May visit for a free round from the back tees... when you will school me on how difficult and un-flat is Castle Stuart. By the way, what would be the target score for a 60 year old with a USGA handicap of 9? With the course so difficult from back there I surely couldn't be expected to break 100.


Michael,

obviously for me you haven't made your reply succintly enough. I gave a good example of my confussion about your vision of the scottish golfing world in my reply to Scott earlier on. Your ingnoring of my point from this post shows to me that you are unable to give any sort of answer. Your sarcasm in the post I have quoted is saddening but to be expected. Are fairway 2,3,5,6,9,10,12,13,14,or 18 flat. OProbalbly to you they are but then again I suspect those at TOC would be if that suited you.



Jon

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2010, 12:05:45 AM »
Jon - I just noticed that your avatar is the great Bob Marley. Unlike Marley, ganja is not improving your reasoning... or your typing skills!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2010, 04:29:57 AM »
Jon - I just noticed that your avatar is the great Bob Marley. Unlike Marley, ganja is not improving your reasoning... or your typing skills!


Michael,

I chose Bob Marley because I like his music. I take objection to your accusation that I am taking ganja as I do not nor have I ever taken it or any other similar drug. I will give you the opportunity to retract it before I take this matter further. As to my typing skills I realise that I make the odd mistake and that of course you are perfect, never making a mistake.

Your reply shows that you have no decent answers to my questions and and your style shows the type of person you probably are.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2010, 04:43:47 AM »
How many members do RC have?
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2010, 05:31:59 AM »

Come on Guys, we are better that this. Have we not just survived a cull on Members. 300 gone - some will certainly be missed and anyway life is just too short.

We agree, we do not, yet we each have the same right to our own opinions. Like us dislike us but at least we are voicing our opinions for what they are worth and they are not as yet worth WW3 or another cull

We do not have to respond to each other or question raised, then neither are we all perfect.

Your life, your decision, but it must be easier to be friendly, surely?

Melvyn (who is just as flawed as anyone else) :'(


Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2010, 06:35:14 AM »
Melvyn,

you are of course right in your post. I just do not accept it when a person that I do not know starts accusing me of illegal practices. In such a case I think I have the right to call him up on it

Jon

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2010, 06:35:32 AM »
I wonder what percentage of the play at Castle Stuart is from Yanks?

What percentage of the revenue is from overseas is the correct question for OC, KB, RC and CS ?
A fourball at the Old could be: 130.00 plus 130.00 plus .93 plus .93, total of 261.96 GBPs.  2 visitors and two resident ticket holders.
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2010, 07:25:32 AM »

Jon

Yes you have every right, but then I suppose you have to consider what level you may want to sink to or exist in. 

Adrian’s OK; He does not always mean everything he posts.

Melvyn

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2010, 02:58:01 PM »

Jon

Yes you have every right, but then I suppose you have to consider what level you may want to sink to or exist in. 

Adrian’s OK; He does not always mean everything he posts.

Melvyn


Melvyn,


I have nothing against Adrian's posts what so ever. It is Michaels W's posts and comments I have taken issue with.

Jon

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2010, 03:35:02 PM »
Michael is a good man and he appears to object to the model of CS and RC for different but linked reasons. As for 60 yard fairways CS will in that respect not be a great warm up for Sandwich.

As for the argument it's getting a touch playground for me, if you wish to continue kindly PM rather than sujecting all of us to it.

Michael - it's a debate we've had before but the whole reason for reciprocals in the US (and I believe you still pay a guest fee in the US unlike our reciprocals) is to access courses you cannot otherwise get on. Apart from a handful of mainly US funded clubs all UK clubs are accessible. RCP has more reciprocals than any UK club I know of and a couple more exciting ones coming online in 2011.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2010, 03:38:29 PM by Mark Chaplin »
Cave Nil Vino

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2010, 04:52:20 PM »
Michael is a good man and he appears to object to the model of CS and RC for different but linked reasons. As for 60 yard fairways CS will in that respect not be a great warm up for Sandwich.

As for the argument it's getting a touch playground for me, if you wish to continue kindly PM rather than sujecting all of us to it.

Michael - it's a debate we've had before but the whole reason for reciprocals in the US (and I believe you still pay a guest fee in the US unlike our reciprocals) is to access courses you cannot otherwise get on. Apart from a handful of mainly US funded clubs all UK clubs are accessible. RCP has more reciprocals than any UK club I know of and a couple more exciting ones coming online in 2011.

Mark - you are correct... the fact that most UK courses are accessible via "visitor" fees dampens the desire for reciprocals between them because the fees mean so much to their operating budgets. The US clubs sometimes charge a "guest" fee, but usually they only require a cart fee (we all ride, you know!).  

Glad to learn that my membership at Deal will become even more valuable in the near future! You guys on the board are doing a fine job of improving everything about the club: the course, the clubhouse, the dormy flat, the food service, everything! Kudos to all. Can't wait to get back in May.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #72 on: November 18, 2010, 08:11:10 PM »
Are we pleasing 80% of the members 20% of the time or 20% of the members 80% of the time?

Either is sucess!
Cave Nil Vino


Eoin Riddell

Re: Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club
« Reply #74 on: January 24, 2011, 05:39:40 AM »
Great news for the north of Scotland.