Scottish Open moves to Castle Stuart & Renaissance Club

[Kyle Henderson]

http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/2011-Scottish-Open-set-for.6624523.jp

[Michael Whitaker]

Colin Montgomerie says:

"It's a long way north for everybody especially as the next week is the Open Championship at Royal St. Georges."
Are you guys traveling to the next site by auto??? Geez... what a stupid statement. It doesn't take any longer to travel to St Georges from Inverness than it does from Glasgow or Edinburgh.


"... but it will be two links golf courses back-to-back and that's what the players have wanted, so we look forward to it."
Castle Stuart is NOT a links course!!! Flat fairways that are 60-80 yards wide will not prepare players for the test that is Royal St Georges. CS will be a powder-puff compared to RSG. They would get a much better preparation if they played Tain or Nairn.

[Brian_Ewen]

Well discussed here http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46229.0.html

[Jon Wiggett]

I think that it is great that the Scottish Open is been spread about a bit more. It will be real easy for the players to get from CS to R St. G as the airport is only 2 minutes away.

Michael, what have you got against CS? Yes the fairways are wide but so what. As to their flatness I am not sure that I agree with you as 1, 3, 5, 6, 9, 10, 12, 13, 16 & 18 all have significant contours to them. I hope you are not trying to push the nyth that links courses only have rumpled fairways as Birkdale, Hoylake, Troon, Lytham and even Prestwick have several flattish fairways.

I agree that CS is not a links in the true sense of the word but it is a lot closer than Loch L. It is interesting that you have not critised the RC for this although it is clearly less of a links than CS, I wonder why?

To your point that the course is too easy then I assume you think that the changes at Augusta in recent years are for the better and that TOC should be dropped becuase it is too easy. If you think that Tain (is this a links course???) and Nairn are harder tests than CS then you are mistaken IMHO.


I am very pro CS getting the Scottish open as I think it will elevate the Inverness area in the publics awaresness and as I  live in this area it will be a good thing for it and me. Why are you so anti?

Jon

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jon - I think its a great thing for it to move around too. I like the look of CS, if it is easy and the pros do -30 for 4 rounds, good. I suspect they won't though and I also suspect they will love it. It makes a big difference to pro's if they like or dislike courses when they pick their rota's, but I guess the SO is on most rotas anyway.

Will CS get big enough crowds from Inverness? My only worry with this development is its remoteness, the airport may be close but the flights from Bristol dont fit nicely for golf. Is it getting plenty of play?

[Niall C]

OK Jon, I'll bite, why is Castle Stuart more of a links than Rennaisance Club ?

Niall

[Adrian_Stiff]

I would say 'links' refers to sandy ground near the sea. For me if Muirfield is links RC is too. CS would depend on the soil for me.

[Niall C]

Adrian,

I agree, and I was lucky enough to play RC yesterday and I would have no hesitation in calling it a links both in terms of the soil and the way it plays. The stands of trees on various parts of the course may give the impression of it being more heathland, especially on the front nine but with a few more "storms" and "high wind" that will be likely be sorted out.

In comparison, CS is largely sand capped in places but does offer a similar run of the ball.

Niall

[JNC Lyon]

I do not know if Renaissance is a links course in the proper sense.  However, it certainly presents many of the same challenges that a great links like Royal St. George's will give players, especially around the greens.  After seeing Renaissance this spring, I am very excited to see that it got the Scottish Open. If anything else, it will be the first big showcase for Tom Doak's work in a professional event.  I think Castle Stuart will also be very exciting.

I agree that Colin Montgomerie's complaints about travel distance were ridiculous, although that is par for the course for today's tour pro.  It is also interesting that he did not mention DORNOCH as a links in the Inverness area.  Whoops.

[Jon Wiggett]

Niall,

maybe my statement was poorly formulated and I am not suggesting that RC is not as good as CS. I can not say as I have only walked RC where as I have played CS. I was referring to Michael's singling out of CS for criticism but not RC and also making some quite ridiculous statements that are plainly not true.

What I would say is that both courses will probably play very much like a links. I do think that being tree lined makes RC somewhat less links like from appearance and this would probably affect the influence of the wind on play. The same can not be said about CS. I think that JNC has got it spot on in his last post.

Jon

[Michael Whitaker]

I was referring to Michael's singling out of CS for criticism but not RC and also making some quite ridiculous statements that are plainly not true.

Jon - I don't know which of my statements you think are ridiculous... the flat fairways comment, I guess. If CS were a private club I would not have as much of a bone to pick with them about the entire concept of the place as I do with it being a "resort" course. And, just so that you know, I have a small bit of the same problem with Kingsbarns... it was built to take advantage of starry-eyed overseas visitors who are making their (probably) one-and-only visit to the UK for golf. It was created to deliver WOW factor to golfers who will probably only play it once or twice in their entire lives and, as a result, will often pay exorbitant prices for a camera filled with beautiful pictures of 18 "signature" holes.  In a vacuum I would not take issue with that, but in the context of Castle Stuart representing the best of golf in Scotland - where the game is supposed to be sacrosanct - the place strikes me as an American ruse on the uninformed. It breaks my heart to see the American idea of over-the-top, super-expensive public courses with the "exclusive-club-for-a-day" scheme worming their way into Scotland. I found Castle Stuart a fun and interesting course to play (although far too expensive). The wide fairways and flat greens provide for an ego boosting day... which was the design intent from the beginning according to CS's general manager who engaged Andrew Mitchell and me during our visit. It just belongs in Michigan, or Arizona, or South Carolina or (pick your American resort area) where this kind of damage has already been done... not Scotland. 

[Jon Wiggett]

Michael,

I guess you just answered your own question about your ridiculous statement. Yes, it was the flat fairways comment. I also notice you chose to ignore this theme in your answer. I find that if you find a comment you make being challenged for an explanation that either you should answer that request or correct/withdraw the challenge. I wonder if you will? On the basis of your last post maybe not. I am sorry to pull you up on this point but I think it is just bad form to ignore something just because it doesn't fit your point of view.

On the rest of your last post. I am not sure that the course is American in flavour. I feel that it has a lot of features of the courses from yesteryear. I think with the passing of time it will bed in just fine. I do however agree that it is not like anything else in Scotland at the moment but am not sure this is a bad thing.

Yes the greens are flat and I could imagine that some of them might be redone in the future but I do not think this is as bad as you seem to. There are many classic links that have flattish greens as the rule and indeed the wild contours craved by many on GCA are often only seen at the odd green or two. TOC is one of the exceptions though even here the main part of 1,8,9,10 & 18 are of a flattish nature.



The greenfee is alot and I have a problem with greenfees in the £60 plus but this high greenfee trend is also prevalent in many of our top courses TOC amongst them.

Again, I notice that many of the criticisms you level a CS could also be levelled at RC but you chose not to. I am somewhat curious as to why?

Jon

[Mark Chaplin]

How much have CS and the RC stumped up to host the Scottish Open. With direct flights from Edinburgh to Ramsgate it's a shame 2011 isn't at RC.

[Mike Cirba]

CS may not be a links course but I still think this is a good development for the type of architecture most of us here appreciate.

[JNC Lyon]

What disqualifies Castle Stuart from being a links course?

Also, does anyone (paging Simon Holt) know if the new holes at Renaissance will be ready by 2012? I am guessing that Renaissance pushed back hosting to give time to build these five new holes along the Firth of Forth.

[Simon Holt]

How much have CS and the RC stumped up to host the Scottish Open. With direct flights from Edinburgh to Ramsgate it's a shame 2011 isn't at RC.

Mark- its the Scottish Open not the Ryder Cup.   Renaissance is not paying a penny and I seriously doubt that Castle Stuart is either.

Also, it is all press speculation at the moment where it will be in what year etc.

Hey John-

I cant really comment on the holes at the moment but I doubt we would rush something that significant to get it ready for the pros.  Members come first!  I would imagine it comes down to how long they would take to be playable and at a similar playing surface to the rest of the course.  I am far from an expert on this but I imagine 12 months would be a stretch in this part of the world.  Turfing versus seeding would probably come into it perhaps.....we have a 99 year lease so we are in no rush!!  I would prefer to seed and have a better quality surface going forward- even if that takes a couple of years....that is not my call and again, I dont really know enough about the growth.

With no changes at all the course would be awesome but obviously I am super biased!!  I think a rotation between the two would be really fun.

[David_Tepper]

"How much have CS and the RC stumped up to host the Scottish Open. With direct flights from Edinburgh to Ramsgate it's a shame 2011 isn't at RC."

Mark Chaplin-

I believe there are 3 commercial flights daily (2 on flybe & 1 on easyjet) from Inverness to Gatwick. Getting from the north of Scotland to the south of England should not be a problem. It would not be unreasonable to expect the tournament sponsors to charter a plane to fly players & caddies from Inverness south to Gatwick or Ramsgate on Sunday evening of the Scottish Open.   

DT

[David_Tepper]

"Also, does anyone (paging Simon Holt) know if the new holes at Renaissance will be ready by 2012?"

JNC Lyon -

On page 4 of the other active thread on the Scottish Open, Tom Doak comments that the RC is still waiting for planning approval to begin building the 3 new holes.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46229.105/

DT

[Kris Shreiner]

"LP" JNC,

I believe there are just three holes in the new, added configuration amongst the dunesland. Simon could chime in confirmation on that score.


If that alternate year format were continued, my guess would be that 2014 would begin the tournament presentation of the new routing. As Simon suggests, uniformity of conditions and playing surfaces would make that 2012 unveiling quite ambitious. It could be possible, but the grass sward establishing properly, in that compressed window of time, especially in exposed areas, would present significant challenges.

cheers

[Tom_Doak]

Kris,

It is possible we willnbe asked to sod the two new holes in the dunes, to minimize environmental impacts.  If that is the case, and if we get to it this winter, I would guess the holes would be ready in 2012.  But we can't do anything without the final approval.

[JNC Lyon]

"LP" JNC,

I believe there are just three holes in the new, added configuration amongst the dunesland. Simon could chime in confirmation on that score.


If that alternate year format were continued, my guess would be that 2014 would begin the tournament presentation of the new routing. As Simon suggests, uniformity of conditions and playing surfaces would make that 2012 unveiling quite ambitious. It could be possible, but the grass sward establishing properly, in that compressed window of time, especially in exposed areas, would present significant challenges.

cheers

Kris,

From what we looked at in May, there would be three new holes in the new dunesland and two new holes taking the place of current ones (replacing the current 12th and 13th).  Of course, it seems like there is nothing definite on those changes.  Clearly it is unreasonable to require the changes to take place before a hypothetical Scottish Open. I doubt that the ownership would want to change Renaissance specifically for a tournament that might take place.

As I have said before, I am a big fan of the current course at Renaissance. The new dunesland looks stunning, but I would not mind seeing the course remain the same today.

[Mark Chaplin]

Simon we have been offered a number of events provided we found a sponsor to put up a few hundred thousand.

[Simon Holt]

Hey Kris- I am not chimming in on the holes until anything is sorted...while I know exactly where we stand I dont want to curse anything because as Tom says nothing is finalised.  Its Tom and Jerry's (our owner) call and no one elses but it all depends on permission which while its looking positive is not in black and white yet. 

Exciting times and as you can imagine everyone at the club has their opinion.  My stance (and not just beacause I know he is reading this) is to let one of the best designers in the world make the call not what I or anyone else might think about it!

Hi Mark- Barclays are a big enough sponsor to cover this one I think....   They approached us- not the other way around and I am sure the same can be said for Castle Stuart.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Great news...

I would have preferred The Renaissance Club first up but whoever suggested they may be holding off for the possible new holes persuaded me otherwise...

[Kris Shreiner]

Simon,

As there had already been ample speculation, all I was asking for was confirmation on # of hole changes proposed, nothing more. I realize there is much still TBD.

Tom,

Thanks for the insight. Firgured they could sod it, but is fescue(if that's what's intended to be used), in the varieties I imagine you'd want in the sward, readily available, or would the superintendent grow it or have some coming along in a turf nursery on-site?

Cheers,
Kris