Groundbreaking/Epic/Infamous Greens

[Wade Schueneman]

Mac,

You are certainly right.  Based on the greens that I have "studied" and then actually played, you have to get photos from several angles with very good lighting to even start to understand a green and even then you cannot get a feel for the speed (and often the general pitch).  My claim is not that I understand any of the greens listed.  Rather, I have seen enough photos of each to intrigue me.

[RSLivingston_III]

With all the fog, my photos didn't come out so great, but I would put OM #5 in the "Epic" category.

Love it. The fog makes it look like a watercolor painting.
Blow it up to a 20x30 and add some golfers and caddies standing in the bunker, and voila, instant classic golf art.
That could make a great screen saver image.

[jonathan_becker]

Thanks, Ralph

Mac,

I just found a few photos from 16 at Brookside.  The next time you go to Ohio, you have to check the place out.  Every green is different and there's a boatload of variety full of severe slopes, spines, ridges, plateaus, shelves, false fronts, false backs, etc. and you will not find a stiffer challenge with the putter.  I'm not saying they're the best or the hardest ever, but they're definitely beyond a challenge and they're definitely world class.  Sometime soon, I'll do a brief photo tour.

You can't really see from the photo, but from the back right to the front left it's a drop of 12 feet.  I personally have not seen another green like this one.  Not going above the hole is a good idea.




Breathe on a ball from here and you can't stop it.

[Mac Plumart]

Well, here is a summary list of what we've said so far.

Courses with great greens…
St. Andrews Old Course
Yale
Ballyneal
North Berwick
Crystal Downs
Winged Foot
Pinehurst #2
Oakmont


Specific greens…
Lane Creek #14
Riviera #6
Augusta #14
Moortown par 3 (specific hole not mentioned)
Maidstone #6
Sebonack #2
Longshadow #17
Pete Dye Golf Club #17
Inverness #18
Yeaman’s #1
Myer’s Park #12
Harbour Town #9 and #12
Royal Dornoch Foxy
Prestwick #13
Woking #4 and #13
Deal #16
Merion #5
Sand Hills #2 and #6
Kingsley #13
Friar’s Head #7 and #14 (and practice green)
Boston GC #5
Shinnecock Hills #7
Cruden Bay punchbowl
Pine Valley #2
Prairie Dunes #8 and #17
Chicago Golf Club #10
Rivermont #2 and #9
Sagebrush #9
Kingsbarns #9
NGLA #1 and #6
Pasatiempo #16
Barnbougle Dunes #13
Old MacDonald #5
Club Campestre San José del Cabo #3 and #4
Lost Dunes #4
Royal Troon Postage Stamp
Pebble Beach #17
Cypress Point #9
Spyglass #4
Chambers Bay #12
Tumble Creek #18
Brookside #16


Infamous Greens…
TPC Sawgrass #17
Coeur D’Alene movable par 3
Secession #17
Longaberger #8
Tetherow
Tobacco Road

[Dean DiBerardino]

I'd like to nominate the remaining 16 greens at Prairie Dunes.

[Scott Warren]

The greens at The Valley Club amazed me for how much viciousness exists in so many greens that look quite toothless but have just the right amount of slope at a good speed that putts that look like they should stop just keep running. I have never been hoodinked so much on a golf course in my life.

Vicious greens often identify themselves too easily.

John Lyon:

4 at Woking--very subtle, unlike many of the greens at Woking.  This green is lay of the land, and its contour and angle work perfectly with the rest of the hole.  The centerline bunkers off the tee would be worth nothing without this green.

It's a cool hole and the green definitely adds to it, but if you're drawing up a list of "greens that stopped the world" I can't see how you would include that green.

You do, however, raise a very good point that greens need to be considered in concert with the rest of the hole. A green can't really be judged in isolation, IMO.

3 at Woking is a far better green than 4!

Also:

13 at Woking--as wild as the fourth green is subtle, this green epitomizes everything I love about Woking.

Do you mean 12? 12 has a wicked green that cascades off the hill. 13s green is much flatter with two tiers.

[Sean_A]

If greens really are to be judged as part of the apckge of a hole, Woking's 4th is certainly important, more important than the 3rd imo even though I think #3 is the better hole.  Why, because the front bunker is the essence of this hole where #4's essence is spread among many features which work together: the centreline bunkers, oob, front left bunker and front to back green (not a very well understood concept for a green since f&f became unfashionable many years ago with the advent of RTJ architecture).  All the ingredients come together to make #4 special - a far more complicated hole than usually given credit for.   

I would really like to know who did exactly what on Woking's greens. 

I would also say the first sharply defined two/three tier greens are important because of their popularity.  I know the Doak butt boys don't like them because of their unnatural look, but they do make a point in a similar way false front greens do. 

Ciao

[Tony_Muldoon]

What no love for the blind gathering green?  I realise the fact they have virtually disappeared means it’s hard to argue for the influence they have had, but they were a core part of the fabric of golf in the early days of GCA.  Maybe there are no new completely blind greens but I have to believe their influence is not completely forgotten when an archie decides to hide the base of the flag.

Yes they are now out of fashion, but the most influential, via Darwin’s writings, is surely Cader at Aberdovey.

 (Today it has been softened and is no longercompletely blind.)












NLE
Sandy Parlour Deal
The Maiden Sandwich

Others – with staying power!
The Dell Lahinch
3rd Deal
14th Cruden Bay
At least two at Preswick!

[Sean_A]

Well Tony, you can add Burnham's 3rd to the staying power list.  Its over a 100 years old and I see no move to eliminate the hole despite there being plenty of opportunity in land surrounding to create a visible green.  Though I must say that Cader is probably second to Dell in fame regardless of what Darwin says.  Its also clear that these two holes have an element of the ancient in that a poor shot may cause a migrane.  Burnham's puncbowl being on a par 4, with short grass hollows short of the green (rather than harsh rough) and essentially being a downhill approach (rather than an up n' over) is of a very different nature than Dell or Cader.  It shows that a true puncbowl green hole is not so one dimensional as many think, but luck is still an important aspect of the type.  Perhaps it is the luck aspect which puts people off?

Ciao

[Carl Rogers]

What would be an infamous green?  How to define an infamous green?

Talking points Royal New Kent #1 & #10, both have an 75 degree 6 to 7 foot elevation change?  #11 at Royal New Kent, 98% of the green is unpinnable at a stimp of 7?

[Tony_Muldoon]

What would be an infamous green?  How to define an infamous green?

I offer The Dell (See above)

It is alleged that more holes in one have been scored on that hole that any other.  This often led to caddie's receiving an extra generous,  "Thank You”.  Later shared with their relatives who had been hiding behind the hill.



Sean, I havn't seen much old writing about Irish courses and wonder if it's fame has been greatest since Hawtree's renovation and the matter of it surviving such a major change?

[Steve Salmen]

The fantastic horseshoe green (#6) at the University of Michigan.  It's a reverse C as opposed to the C shaped green 7th at CD.  As I putted out on #3, I looked over and took this pic.  I was really excited because it was my third time playing the course and I had not played to a back hole location.


However, by the time we got to the 6th hole, a member of the grounds staff moved the hole to the front location.

[Mac Plumart]

Carl:

In regards to your question, "What would be an infamous green?  How to define an infamous green?"

I don't know.  Just having fun talking about cool greens that people might want to check out in their travels.

[Mark McKeever]

Its not very famous, but the 10th hole at Schuylkill is really good.

Mark

[Tom_Doak]

I wish I had a picture of Bill Coore's ninth green on the Red course at Mosaic.  I have never seen anything quite like it.  It's a short par 4 with an upper left area and then a tiny sliver of green hanging out on the lower right, with bunker in front, maybe 40 feet of green, and a deep chipping area behind it.  I don't think I would ever be the first one in a match to play for that pin, I think I would just play up left and let my opponent take his chances with it.

[Tyler Kearns]

#17 at Glen Abbey is kind of "S" shaped, with bunkers filling the gaps. I'de put this in the unique, but not so great category as the slopes do not allow access to the hole if you have a bunker between yourself and the hole.

I played a Joel Goldstrand design in Minnesota called Wildflower where #11 had a putting surface shaped like a real horseshoe (with an upper right, and lower left side), and the gap in between mowed tightly to fringe height. A few holes later at #16, two small, circular greens exist, with the back one raised, again with the space between the greens mowed at fringe height. It was definitely unique, and added another element to the putting as it would not be infrequent to find oneself having to putt through the fringe area. I don't think it will be something I'de imitate in the future, but it was not entirely off-putting. I guess I'm on the fence.

TK

[Norbert P]

 
 Moray #4  Par 3

[RJ_Daley]

Groundbreaking/Epic/Infamous Greens?  If you can't name 50, you haven't been playing much golf....  Just another list thread... 

[Mac Plumart]

RJ...

I am curious to know your favorite greens.  How about 2 from well known courses and one or two under the radar courses to get thing started?

I am sure I haven't played as much golf as you, but nevertheless I've already found a handful of new greens that I simple must see.

[RJ_Daley]

Mac, I doubt I have played as many courses and as diverse in locale or rankings, as you.  But that is neither here nor there.   Frankly, almost every new course I've seen in years has one or more greens that I'd consider, groundbreaking (or at least mold breaking), Epic in terms of scal, or bold size- small or large, and potentially due to their complexity, infamous. 

With the infinite variety and ability to use slope, contour, size and materials, I'd say most every GCA has the goal in mind, to achieve groundbreaking, epic, and infamous or famous greens.  Ask them and they probably will point to a few greens on every project that they think fit these criteria.

[James Bennett]

Whilst Barnbougle Dunes has (justifiably) had #13 mentioned, all 18 qualify as a great set of greens.

And, no mention of Royal Melbourne West or of Royal Melbourne East at all!  Lee Trevino certainly thought of them as infamous.  I think Lee was mistaken.  There are 36 great greens there, and the recent work seems to be making progress in restoring some of the fire and turf quality too.

And, a green that is polarising opinion at present - Royal Adelaide 17.

James B

[Lester George]

One of Algie Pulley's original greens at Chardonay Club was on a par three that played across a ravine.  It was 450 feet wide and stairstepped an incredible 18 feet from high on the down to the right.  When the course first opened, you played your shot to one of three different flags marking three different hole locations based on your teeing location.  Cool thought but couldn't be used for tournament play for obviuos reasons.  Does anyone know if it is still in use?  Anyone have a picture?

Lester

[JC Jones]

Which is more groundbreaking/epic/infamous?

The original green or the template of the original green as interpreted and applied to varying sites?