[Patrick Hodgdon]

I'm headed to Arizona next week and have time to play one round Tuesday afternoon. I was planning on playing Talking Stick North. 

Does anyone have any reviews of the course or think I should play my first Arizona/desert round elsewhere?

Also I would love to meet up with any local GCA's who can play, reply here or send me a pm thanks.

[Bill_McBride]

Talking Stick North is a very good desert course and is often referred to as a textbook for making a flat site interesting.

One thing I enjoy there is the number of central bunker/hazard features.







#12 is a really interesting short par 4.  If you play safely right of the arroyo, the out of bounds is very close behind the shallow green.   

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Patrick,

Take a look here:

http://golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/talkingstick

I wish I could join you but I won't be in AZ until early January.

[Matthew Petersen]

If you only have one round, I would recommend WeKoPa Saguaro over TSN.

TSN is pancake flat and really lacking in any kind of visual appeal. It also doesn't feel especially like a "desert" course. That said, the layout is overall an accomplishment, but mostly so within the context of the limitations of the site. Saguaro is also a C&C design, on much more interesting property, and much more of an Arizona desert golf experience (without feeling like Troon North-style target golf).

[Jud_T]

Patrick,

I loved the course and was pleasantly surprised by it.  Many here will tell you to play We-Ko-Pa Saguaro instead.  Personally I think it's a pretty close call and TSN is better value and more architecturally interesting for what they did on that site.  

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Just played Talking Stick North back in September.  Fun enjoyable course and overall good value for the price. The course was in very good shape.  It is also a lot closer into town than WKP, so if that is a consideration.  Doesn't sound like you are staying there but the resort is also a nice option for an overnight stay.  Brand new rooms that were very nice and the casino has a very large poker room with lots of options on various games and $$$.

Thanks everyone for the input. It sounds like TSN is good enough to play this time and Saguaro is the way to go if I had time for a second round or next time I make it out there.

Charlie I am going to stay there as the resort looks fantastic for the price (4 stars for $119/night) and you can never go wrong with poker/blackjack close by.

So if anyone wants to join me on Tuesday afternoon at TSN let me know.

[Jon Spaulding]

Very solid and exceptionally "fun" golf course, I prefered it to Saguaro, albeit by a small margin.

Be sure to stay clear of Tom Yost, that dude is trouble

[Steve Salmen]

Patrick,

Have fun at TSN.  I played it earlier this year.  I look forward to hear what you have to say.  Will hold my tongue until then.  Just in case you are up for a 45 minute drive, Southern Dunes is a very good golf course.

[Tom Yost]

Patrick, I would be delighted to meet up for a round but a crazy-busy work schedule will be keeping me in the office for the next few weeks.  Alas, you won't be able to test Spaulding's judge of character.

Talking Stick North just opened this past weekend following the overseed.  Nov 16 will be just four weeks of grow-in.  I would guess you might expect somewhat soft/slow conditions and greens a little shaggy.   You will be faced with those conditions for the most part where ever you end up this time of year.

While I find TSN a delightful course, one of my favorites in town, it's not really what I consider a destination type course.  I would recommend Saguaro as the must play for the out-of-towner only because of its more scenic foothill site with elevation changes, better views, and lush Sonoran Desert native surroundings.  

But given the brand new hotel/casino at TS, probably can't go wrong there!  

Enjoy your visit, sorry I won't be able to join you.

[Andy Troeger]

I have to admit that I don't get the love for TSN. Its pretty well thought out given the land--no disagreement there. But, Saguaro had significantly better land is also very well thought out. Once was enough for me at TSN, but I'd like to return to Saguaro more often. Given one round, IMO its no contest.

Have prices changed at either facility? I thought the two courses had similar pricing structures?

[Mike Hendren]

A serious student of golf course architecture should really try to play Talking Stick South as well.  It's an interesting juxtaposition with Talking Stick North on identical land and has some interesting classical design elements that pre-date the now familiar C & C "look."  Also, a couple of rare water holes from C & C including a driveable par four finisher:






My personal favorites - a short one-shotter with a pushed up green and a strategic par five that must be approached down the length of the green:





Mike

[Jud_T]

Steve,

I'd love to hear why you think it's a dogtrack....

[Bill_McBride]

A serious student of golf course architecture should really try to play Talking Stick South as well.  It's an interesting juxtaposition with Talking Stick North on identical land and has some interesting classical design elements that pre-date the now familiar C & C "look."  Also, a couple of rare water holes from C & C including a driveable par four finisher:

Interesting.......I've played the North Course 4 times and the South just once, and found the South to be much weaker.

Not sure why but it just seemed like all the really good holes were on the North.

[Mike Hendren]

Bill, the South is generally void of theatrics but a fundamentally sound golf course made even more interesting by the subsequent body of C & C's work as well as the more dramatic design elements of its neighbor.   The greens are often pushed up on the rear with extensive use of false fronts and the fairways are abundant, resulting in a classic look and feel. 

While I've only played each course once, I have a hunch that the novelty of the North would wear off eventually while I would never tire of playing the bread-and-butter South. 

That's not to say that the South is better. 

Mike

[Doug Wright]

Bill, the South is generally void of theatrics but a fundamentally sound golf course made even more interesting by the subsequent body of C & C's work as well as the more dramatic design elements of its neighbor.   The greens are often pushed up on the rear with extensive use of false fronts and the fairways are abundant, resulting in a classic look and feel. 

While I've only played each course once, I have a hunch that the novelty of the North would wear off eventually while I would never tire of playing the bread-and-butter South. 

That's not to say that the South is better. 

Mike

Mike, good analysis of the South Course. It's a solid traditional course that is interesting to play from an architectural standpoint to compare with its neighbor the North Course, which has a totally different desert-style look and feel.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Patrick, I would be delighted to meet up for a round but a crazy-busy work schedule will be keeping me in the office for the next few weeks.  Alas, you won't be able to test Spaulding's judge of character.

Talking Stick North just opened this past weekend following the overseed.  Nov 16 will be just four weeks of grow-in.  I would guess you might expect somewhat soft/slow conditions and greens a little shaggy.   You will be faced with those conditions for the most part where ever you end up this time of year.

While I find TSN a delightful course, one of my favorites in town, it's not really what I consider a destination type course.  I would recommend Saguaro as the must play for the out-of-towner only because of its more scenic foothill site with elevation changes, better views, and lush Sonoran Desert native surroundings.  

But given the brand new hotel/casino at TS, probably can't go wrong there!  

Enjoy your visit, sorry I won't be able to join you.

Thanks Tom and be sure to let me know if the power goes out at the office and you are suddenly free to play. Otherwise next time for sure.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

I have to admit that I don't get the love for TSN. Its pretty well thought out given the land--no disagreement there. But, Saguaro had significantly better land is also very well thought out. Once was enough for me at TSN, but I'd like to return to Saguaro more often. Given one round, IMO its no contest.

Have prices changed at either facility? I thought the two courses had similar pricing structures?

It looks like TSN is $80-95 and Saguaro is $145 unless there is another way to book reservations I haven't found.

[Andy Troeger]

Patrick,
Thanks for the update. I haven't played either in a couple years, but remember them both being higher than that, more in the $175 range for peak. That could be an issue with my memory, or perhaps the prices have come down! (or both of course!)

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Those rates will be higher in the "Prime Season"

http://www.talkingstickgolfclub.com/Green-Fees-Rates_02821ff0ac6e9cc.html

Online rates may be lower:

http://www.talkingstickgolfclub.com/14d32639a24bb308e817494e72cef20f.html

[Tom Yost]

Talking Stick is on GolfNow and marginally lower-than-rack rates can be had on short notice.  I see that they are now offering unlimited play with the top daily rate.

We-Ko-Pa doesn't discount at all from my experience unless you are a resident or an OB Sports card-holder.

The combo of Talking Stick North and South makes for a great 36 hole day.  The South is a very good course in it's own right, but as others have pointed out, a more traditional layout with water hazards and non-native trees.  The North could be my everyday course but for the pricing structure. My only other complaint is they tend to keep it too soft.  The Troon management philosophy seems to tend toward the green presentation.  If I were king, I would keep the South as the parkland style and turn the North into a more rustic firm/fast track.   Most of the Average Joe golfers like the South course more.  Those that like the North would appreciate it more if it played firmer.

Something about the North that took me a couple of plays to realize...  I kept thinking "man, a lot of long par 4's!!"  Well, the course is 7100+ yards PAR 70.   duh.

I find TSN to be a fairly subtle experience, and many find it a bit underwhelming on first visit.  But it certainly has grown on me.  I really appreciate it more for what it is not, rather than what it is.  It is not the typical gimmicked up daily fee course like so many that have been developed in the Phoenix metro area in the past 30 years.  Those that focus on the visually aesthetics rather than features that have golf value.  Talking Stick is pure golf.

Another cool feature of TSN is the way the course blends with the native surroundings without the harsh edge transition that many find disconcerting.  C&C did a very good job with this element which is something that is not even noticeable to most, but really lends a more organic feel to the course.

Both courses are perfectly walkable, with tees in very close proximity to the green, something that you don't see much on modern courses.


Enjoy your visit Patrick!

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Talking Stick is on GolfNow and marginally lower-than-rack rates can be had on short notice.  I see that they are now offering unlimited play with the top daily rate.

We-Ko-Pa doesn't discount at all from my experience unless you are a resident or an OB Sports card-holder.

The combo of Talking Stick North and South makes for a great 36 hole day.  The South is a very good course in it's own right, but as others have pointed out, a more traditional layout with water hazards and non-native trees.  The North could be my everyday course but for the pricing structure. My only other complaint is they tend to keep it too soft.  The Troon management philosophy seems to tend toward the green presentation.  If I were king, I would keep the South as the parkland style and turn the North into a more rustic firm/fast track.   Most of the Average Joe golfers like the South course more.  Those that like the North would appreciate it more if it played firmer.

Something about the North that took me a couple of plays to realize...  I kept thinking "man, a lot of long par 4's!!"  Well, the course is 7100+ yards PAR 70.   duh.

I find TSN to be a fairly subtle experience, and many find it a bit underwhelming on first visit.  But it certainly has grown on me.  I really appreciate it more for what it is not, rather than what it is.  It is not the typical gimmicked up daily fee course like so many that have been developed in the Phoenix metro area in the past 30 years.  Those that focus on the visually aesthetics rather than features that have golf value.  Talking Stick is pure golf.

Another cool feature of TSN is the way the course blends with the native surroundings without the harsh edge transition that many find disconcerting.  C&C did a very good job with this element which is something that is not even noticeable to most, but really lends a more organic feel to the course.

Both courses are perfectly walkable, with tees in very close proximity to the green, something that you don't see much on modern courses.


Enjoy your visit Patrick!

Thanks for the breakdown Tom. If I can squeeze in another round I might try TSS for the comparison. I am excited about the 7100/70 challenge at TSN as I hit a pretty long ball and always like a course that makes me use it.

For those that have played both, how does TSN compare to CommonGround in terms of minimalist flat courses?

[Tom Yost]

Patrick,

Hope your visit went well.  Interested in your thoughts about Talking Stick!

[Patrick Hodgdon]

Patrick,

Hope your visit went well.  Interested in your thoughts about Talking Stick!

I'm back from AZ after the Ironman race yesterday, which is a really spectacular sport to see in person btw, and did get a round in at TSN. I have pictures on my phone that I'll try and load later as well.

I enjoyed my round at TSN and thought it was worth the $80. That being said outside of two or three holes it wasn't all that impressive to me. I was surprised by just how many 450 yard par 4's, with most of them very similar and straight out, C+C designed on the course. Where was the short par 4 to mix it up? Why only one dogleg? Why not more interesting green surrounds to make up for the flat terrain? That being said, none of the holes I would character as bad or poorly designed holes. I did like the use of greenside bunkers throwing off my perception, including on #1, that make it look like they are much closer than they are.

I thought the back nine was more interesting than the front and that I thought #4 and #12, the two holes with interesting cross-bunkers that force you to choose your line wisely, were both very strong holes.

Overall I'd say TSN is probably a 5 on the Doak scale (some could argue it a 6 I suppose). As mostly flat minimalist courses go (and probably as flat in general go) it is a good design to see. In comparison I think CommonGround is the superior course (although there was a little more to work with in the land variation) and it has more interesting holes and would give it a 7 on the Doak scale (although I could understand an argument for it being a 6).

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