mark chalfant

  • Karma: +0/-0
Knollwood (Raynor, Tillinghast ) N.Y. New
« on: November 09, 2010, 06:35:01 pm »
This hilly layout is the product of many architects: Raynor, Van Etten, Tilly, and  Bathgate,
I believe this course may be pursuing restoration , with one of our valued contributors.   Ian, Is an update possble....

Thanks
« Last Edit: March 03, 2015, 09:13:28 pm by mark chalfant »

Ian Andrew

Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2010, 06:42:40 pm »
Mark,

Here is the History that I Know. I'll update more tonight after my son's hockey game.


Early History of Knollwood

•   In 1890 Augustas Gillender purchased 75 acres to build a self contained exclusive community
•   In 1892 Charles Berg would design and build the Knollwood Country Club clubhouse on a small parcel of the original property.
•   The Knollwood Country Club was formally organized in 1894
•   In 1895 a syndicate organized by Gillender purchased an additional 200 acres and officially incorporated Knollwood Country Club
•   In 1985 the original course at Knollwood Country Club opened. It was designed by Lawrence Van Etten (a local Civil Engineer and founding member) also with some assistance from Willie Park who was playing in a local exhibition at St. Andrew’s and was asked to come and offer some recommendations during construction.
•   Knollwood originally leased the clubhouse and property from Gillender, but in 1897 the club arranged to purchase the facility and land
•   The golf course went through a series of modifications as the membership tried to add length and make improvements to keep up with the changes of players ability and the improvements in equipment
•   In 1910 a group of members formed the Knollwood Real Estate Company and purchased the club property and leased it back to the members for 10 years
•   1919 the West wing of the clubhouse was lost to a fire and the club arranged for Charles Berg to arrange the rebuilding of the West Wing.
•   The membership was faced with the end of the lease for the property and the need to rebuild the clubhouse. The members arranged the financing and repurchased the property
•   In 1921 member Henry Evans made the suggestion of using some of his land to expand the golf course
•   On August 1924 Henry Evans died and Harry Kelly Jr. bought the property from the estate. It has been suggested that Kelly acted partially on behalf of the club since this land offered the club potential for expansion for the course
•   In 1924 the course measured 5,300 yards while almost all other area clubs were at least 6,000 yards. The club was now having trouble attracting new golfing members since the course was considered out of date.
•   Kelly arranged the sale of 38 acres to the club and took no profit from the sale
•   The club then hired A.W. Tillinghast to explore the expansion of the golf course
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 06:55:28 pm by Ian Andrew »

Ian Andrew

Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2010, 06:43:48 pm »
A.W. Tillinghast at Knollwood


Tuesday January 13th, 1925

•   General discussion regarding the acquiring of the Evans Property and enlarging the golf course
•   It was brought up that through Ralph Day the club could obtain the services of A.W. Tillinghast for $250. to examine and report of the course.
•   “The instructions of the board were to employ well-known architect Mr. A.W. Tillinghast to go over the present course, suggest any changes that he thought advisable, and to consider the available property adjacent to the course which in his judgement was thought needed to improve the course and bring it up to somewhere in regulation length.”
•   “He was then instructed to go over the available property around Henry Evans Estate which had recently been purchased by Mr. Kelly…”


Tillinghast Report - January 26th, 1925

•   “On Saturday I made a critical examination of your golf course. It revealed a layout of rather antiquated design and the distances generally made it obvious that the holes were planned to meet the requirements of the old hard (gutta percha) ball, which has been obsolete for twenty years.”
•   “The tract is limited to 108 acres and this acreage is not sufficient.”
•   “Assuming your card distances are accurate some 800 or possibly 900 yards must be added and a number of short holes must be eliminated.”
•   “With few exceptions, the putting greens should be reconstructed for they are without character and several slope away from the shot to a marked degree.”
•   If the property directly to the north can be acquired it will enable you to extend to some modern lengths and requirements.”
•   “On this new property I recommend the building of seven entirely new holes and these would probably require forty acres.” My eighteenth would be an entirely new hole on you present property.”
•   “A rough estimate of the complete reconstruction cost is $50,000.”


Wednesday following Report

•   Deferred consideration of the report for the snow to melt
•   Keith Evans writes, “We felt that Mr. Tillinghast ought to modify his views to some extent, as what he has recommended might be laid out under a more economical scheme”


February 24th – From site walk with Tillinghast

•   “As Mr. Tillinghast’s first report recommended the purchase of 30 to 50 acres of Mr. Kelly’s property, we endeavoured to work out with him some economical plan using less acreage.”
•   “Mr. Tillinghast pointed out that it would be utterly impossible to get a full length course in any area from under 125 to 140 acres, and that practically know full length course anywhere had much less than 150 acres.”


February 24th – Tillinghast Report

•   “I recommend the acquisition of certain areas of the Kelly property, as indicated personally to Mr. Evans and Mr. McGee, enough for three new holes on the East of the residence and for two on the West. (I should say not over 50 acres in all). This will enable us to effect a gradual and desirable extension of the golf course to a maximum length of approximately 6,200 yards, and a general length of approximately 6,000 yards, with a par of 71.”
•   In general my plan will:
o   reverse no. 1 and no. 2 (current 1st but not second)
o   no.3, no.4, no.5 as they are (none are in routing)
o   no.6 with a replaced green (5th)
o   no. 7 and no. 8 entirely new holes (current 6th and 7th)
o   no.9 a new one shot over existing property (current 8th)
o   no.10 will be a new hole (site of range perhaps)
o   no. 11 considerably lengthened (current 9th makes perfect sense)
o   no.12, no.13, no.14 are new holes on the new property (current 10th,13th and 14th)
o   no.15 represents a reversal of play on the current 14th and 15th (current 16th)
o   no.16 represents a reversal of the current hole (current17th)
o   no.17 is new and over your own property
o   no.18 is a variation of the current 12th

•   There will be 13 new greens and five new fairways and the total construction cost will not exceed $50,000.
•   The committee has endorsed this proposal


 
Wednesday April 22nd , 1925

•   Tillinghast spoke about plan at the meeting
•   He said the club could expect the work done by June of 1926, compare favourably with other Metropolitan clubs and have a length between 6,200 – 6,300 yards
•   The committee recommended employing Mr. Tillinghast, purchase of the property, authorized an increase in pay for Fred Decker who would eventually supervise the construction, pay an addition $1,000 bonus to Tillinghast if the course was turned over in satisfactory condition and gave Tillinghast “the final decision with respect to all plans and the responsibility for carrying them out.”
•   In a report to the board of Governors the last part stated, “That as reconstruction of the entire course is about to be made, the full responsibility with respect to the final determination of the plans therefore be given to the golf committee, with the understanding that as part of the terms of the contract with A.W. Tillinghast, Golf Architect, it should be understood that he shall have the final say with respect to such plans and be responsible for the carrying out of said plans.”
•   Arrangements were made to purchase the property for $35,000. using Tillinghast’s preliminary plans for the new course
•   In the committee finance report it mentions that the budget for the golf course expansion is $99,000.
•   It later lists the architect’s fee as $3,000.


May 28th, 1925

•   The club and Mr Kelly agree to exchange a new section on the north of Evans property for a section called the “Knoll”
•   The new boundaries are set by a plan submitted by Tillinghast that used the new section of land (this becomes the 11th and 12th holes)
•   The budget has been revised to $104,000 and Tillinghast’s fee is $4,000
•   The golf committee is authorized to begin construction


 
May 28th, 1925

•   “The new course to be laid out substantially in accordance with the last sketch furnished by Mr. Tillinghast”
•   That the 4th and 5th holes be eliminated as proposed in the present plan to avoid cross play and the land be sold off for development and these holes be developed elsewhere (this was not sold)
•   A new irrigation plan be installed as part of the project, Tillinghast estimates $7,500.
•   Tillinghast has come back to the committee and increased the cost estimate by $5,000. because of the changes and new land involved
•   Tillinghast is entirely satisfied with the new acreage and has started to lay out the course
•   The club conducts an exchange of property and Mr Kelly retains the “Knoll” (new property is 11th and 12th holes)


June 23rd, 1925

•   Agreement made between the town and club to exchange the current 14th green  for other land to be used in the Tillinghast plan (I really think this was actually the 4th green)


August 7th, 1925

•   “Mr. Brookmire spoke at length about the work that has already been done, the cost thereof, the plans for the future, the impossibility of working with Mr. Tillinghast and the desire of the Committee to engage the services of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, as the golf architect of the club.”
•   The committee resolved to discontinue the services of Mr. Tillinghast

Ian Andrew's comments: It would be my conclusion that Tillinghast routed the 1st hole, placed the 5th green, and routed the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th and 17th.


« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 06:48:03 pm by Ian Andrew »

Ian Andrew

Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2010, 06:47:39 pm »
Seth Raynor at Knollwood

Friday August 7, 1925 - Board of Governors

•   “Mr. Brookmire spoke at length about the work that has already been done, the cost thereof, the plans for the future, the impossibility of working further with Mr. Tillinghast, and the desire of the Committee to engage the services of Mr. Seth. J. Raynor as the golf architect of the Club.”

•   Resolved: 
   
o   “That the action of the Golf Committee in discontinuing the services of Mr. Tillinghast as the golf architect of the Club is approved.”
o   “That the Golf Committee be authorized to proceed with its negotiations with Mr. Seth J. Raynor and to retain him as the golf architect of the Club.”
o   “That the Golf Committee proceed with the work now partially completed, of building the seven holes on the newly acquired property of the club under the direction of Mr. Raynor.”
o   “That the Golf Committee obtain from Mr. Raynor his definite program and recommendation for the complete course and submit them to this Board together with complete plans, recommendations, and estimates of cost.”

October 16, 1925

•   “After carefully considering the plan for the new 18 hole course proposed by Mr. Raynor, both from a study of his drawing as submitted and also by going over the course itself, we are of the opinion that the course as now planned is far superior to the one originally outlined when construction was begun.”
•   The yardage is approximately 6300 yards.

Ian Andrew: It is my opinion that Raynor routed “his own course”, that including the new Tillinghast holes.


Monday October 19, 1925

•   Mr. Brookmire discussed at length the progress of the work on the new course, securing Mr. Raynor as golf architect, the cost of the work to date and estimates of the cost of future work. He submitted a report from the Golf Committee covering their recommendations to the adoption of the plan submitted by Mr. Raynor. 
•   Mr. Raynor and his associate, Mr. Banks, were present at the meeting. 
•   He estimates that the work on the course will be done up by October 18, involve an expenditure of $48,000, and that completing the seven holes on the property to be acquired would cost $1750. 

Ian Andrew: small cost indicates that the remaining work was little more than seeding)

•   Completing the course in accordance with Mr. Raynor’s plan would involve a further expenditure of $35,000
•   Raynor’s fee will be $2,000
•   a projected total (of entire project)  of about $133,000.


October 19, 1925 - Report to Board of Directors

Statement of Cost of Construction

•   “The plans for the full 18 hole course have been finally worked out with Mr. Raynor, which plan is shown in the photographic drawing submitted herewith, together with his estimate for completing the 11 holes, being the remainder of the unfinished course.”
•   The portion of the new course on the property lately acquired, consisting of 7 holes, is now nearly completed. 
•   The original estimate for construction and its proportion of materials for the balance of the course, namely holes # 1-2-3-4-7-8-9-15-16-17-18 was $31,548.
•   “With the exception of the 18th holes, there is little to be done in the way of construction other than building the necessary greens…”
•   Architect’s fees … rec’d a communication from Mr. A.W. Tillinghast claiming that an additional payment was due him.  According to the contract there was a payment of $500 due on July 15th, which was prior to the date of cancellation of the arrangement with him and while it was felt that he was not morally entitled to the money, legally he was. 
•   Upon recommendation of Mr. Breed, the same offer of bonus which should have gone to Mr. Tillinghast has been made to Mr. Raynor.

Excerpts from Raynor’s Cost Estimate:

o   Hole No. 5 – Putting green.  This green had been completed entirely under    Mr. Tillinghast’s supervision… and later was condemned by Mr. Raynor….    necessary to change the character of this green and it was reshaped and made    larger.

Ian Andrew: In my opinion this is a Raynor green
 

o   Hole No. 6 – This green was completed and seeded on Sept 18 … total cost of    $1804… In addition to the boulders which were used as a foundation for the    green, the two huge piles of rock between the 5th and 6th fairway give some    idea of the labor which has been spent for this part of the work. 

Ian Andrew: Interestingly there was no mention of Raynor making changes, it would be reasonable to assume that Tillinghast’s green was the one built

o   Holes 10-11-12 … when taken over by Mr. Raynor, the 10th, 11th and 12th    greens were roughly graded but had no top soil on them.  They were finished    according to Mr. Raynor’s ideas and all seeded on September 12th. 

Ian Andrew: In my opinion these are all Raynor greens

o   Hole No. 13 – Green – The spot selected for the green was very low and wet.     Before work could be started it was necessary first to get in the necessary    drains.

Ian Andrew: While not conclusive there was mention of the entire green  area requiring work therefore this is assumed to be a Raynor green

o   Hole No. 14 – Green – The green had been entirely completed in the rough    before Mr. Raynor took charge but was finished according to his ideas and    was seeded on September 12th…

Ian Andrew: In my opinion a Raynor green

o   “In regard to the greens, the original plan contemplated only 6” of top soil,    while Mr. Raynor felt that to get proper results it was necessary to do more    than this and the greens finally were constructed with 6” of top soil, followed    by a layer of horse manure and a second layer of screened top soil to the    extent of 6 inches.”

•   To quote Mr. Banks:  “I wish to say that Mr. Decker has had a good crew of men, who have worked as diligently as we could expect and Decker himself has been untiring in his efforts and has done his full share towards accomplishing everything possible in the way of completing the work.  He has been on the job constantly, has remained with me evening after evening, long after working hours to talk the work over and plan for the future.  I have found him always willing to accept suggestions and most faithful in his efforts to carry them out.”


Ian Andrew's comments: Raynor routed the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 16th and 18th differently than Tillinghast. While he incorporated the same basic land for 8th, 9th, 15th and 17th; I believe it makes sense to give him routing credit for those holes too.

Ian Andrew

Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2010, 06:53:05 pm »
Charles Banks at Knollwood

February 10, 1926 - The Golf Architect’s Description of the New Course
Written by Charles Banks

•   “As we proceeded with this work, Mr. Raynor became more and more enthusiastic over the possibilities, and when we had finally completed the layout he remarked to me, “We are going to make a real course out of this after all.” In other words, his final reaction was that there were fine possibilities in the holes which were still to be constructed, and that these holes could be linked up with the other new holes in an effective manner.” 

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion this appears to confirm that Raynor struggled to find a “new” layout that incorporated Tillinghast’s holes but produced what he felt was a better course

•    “Mr. Raynor feels that the topography of the property lends itself well to the building of some very effective holes from the golfing standpoint and that most of the holes will have the added attraction of a beautiful setting.”

•   “The first hole will be an effective drive and pitch hole, to the present first green over the present second fairway.  This hole will have a large diagonal bunker running part way across the fairway in such a position as to place a premium on a good shot to the right of the fairway, giving the player easy entrance to the green.  A large face bunker will probably be placed below the green, so that a poorly placed drive will require a pitch shot from this bunker to the green.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Raynor’s hole with a Banks green, under construction still in 1926

•   “Hole No.  2 will be a log-leg to a green up on the hillside below the present fourth green.  The main feature of this hole is that a good drive will give the player a clear shot around the corner to the green.  The green will be a large one dug into the hillside, and will have a double entrance and a large mound and bunker in front, between the two =entrances.  This green will be similar to one at the Creek Club, and to the 9th green at Fox Chapel, Pittsburgh.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Raynor hole with a Raynor green since green grown in construction photos from 1926

•   “The third hole will be a short one, ranging from 110 – 130 yards.  The green will have a large trap in front and traps to the left and rear and a steep bank to the right, thus requiring an accurate pitch shot.  In general type, this hole follows the sixth at the National.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Raynor hole with a Raynor green since green grown in construction photos from 1926

•   “The fourth hole will be a very pretty drive and pitch hole, the distance being about 340 yards.  The green is the one placed on the tennis courts.  It will stand up, and as one approaches it he will have the attractive view down through the alley.  A large trap will be placed to the right of the green and will run well out to the front, thus placing a premium on an accurate shot down the centre of the course, or a little to the left.  In general type the green follows one on the Garden City course, which ahs been very much admired.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Raynor hole with a Raynor green since green grown in construction photos from 1926

•   “The 5th tee across the road, a little in advance of the present 3rd tee, will link up well with this green.  This new 5th hole will be a long three-shot hole up through the valley to a green upon the hillside bunker or around the corner near the end of the large face bunker.  The green will probably be most effective upon the hill and will be built there if the rock conditions permit.  In either position, the green will present a real test of golf, making it necessary for the player to secure two long shots and an accurate pitch to reach the green.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Raynor hole (lengthened hole from Tillinghast’s concept) with a Banks green

•   “Holes 6 and 7 are two of the new holes already built, 6 being a long two-shotter, and 7 being a very pretty drive and pitch hole to the green near the newly constructed little pond.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Tillinghast holes with Raynor green on the 6th and a Tillinghast green on the 7th

•   “Hole No. 8 will be a one shot hole to a green placed upon the face of the hill near the present 4th tee.  This probably will be a Redan Hole, 180-190 yards in length, and will be especially effective on account of the location of the green and the shot across the little valley which will lie between the tee and the green.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Raynor hole with a Banks green

•   “The 9th hole from a tee on the hillside overlooking the present 8th green will present a very attractive picture, and will be very effective long two-shot hole.  The present 9th green will be utilized for this hole.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Raynor hole with a Van Etten green
 

•   “The 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th, and 14th holes are among the new holes which have been practically completed.  “

•   “No. 10 will require two long, well placed shots.  The green is placed on the hillside and can be reached only by an accurately placed pitch shot or roll in.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Tillinghast hole with Raynor green

•   “No. 11 is a long one-shot hole, with aside slope into the green.  This hole will be a delight to the players who can shoot straight, even though they may not be able to attain great distance.  The tee, placed as it is practically on top of the hill, commands a beautiful view for miles down the valley.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Tillinghast hole with Raynor green

•   “No. 12 will require two long shots.  On account of the position of the green, a well placed drive to the right is necessary if one is seeking for a comfortable second shot.  The hole opens up well from the right, but will prove more difficult from the left of the fairway.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Tillinghast hole with Raynor green

•   “Hole No. 13 is a right angle dog leg.  The drive is down a steep hill into a very attractive little valley in the woods.  The character of the hole is such as to make a good a very drive necessary if one is to have a clear second shot at the green.  The second shot will be a pitch shot of average length to a built up cape hole surrounded by traps.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Tillinghast hole with Raynor green

•   “The 14th hole is another round the corner hole, but is very different in type from No. 13.  The green is placed at an angle, like the Redan type of hole, in a pocket of trees.  To play this hole well one must secure a good drive, followed by a short pitch or roll in shot.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Tillinghast hole with Raynor green

•   “No. 15 will be a drive and pitch hole up the hill along the road.  The tee shot will be over the brook and the steep bank which borders it.  The second shot will be a pitch shot to a green up on the hillside, which will stand up well and present an attractive target.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Raynor hole with Banks green
 


•   “The 16th hole will be one of the most attractive in the entire course from a scenic point of view.  This will be a one shot hole of the Eden type, about 160 yards in length.  The tee will be placed near the present 17th tee, and the green will be down the hillside.  The view from this tee down the valley will be extremely attractive.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Raynor hole with Banks green

•   “The tee for the 17th hole will be placed slightly down the hill in such a position as to make it necessary for one to carry the brow of the ridge which now runs along below the 16th fairway.  Because of its diagonal position this ridge will enable the driver to “bite off” as much of a carry as he feels he can make.  The longer tee shot will, of course, give a more direct line to the hole.  The green will probably be placed where the present 15th green is, giving the very long hitter an opportunity to carry the gully on a second shot and giving the average player an opportunity for two long shots to the brow of the gully and a pitch shot across the gully to the green.  In length and hazards, this hole is similar to one of the famous holes at Lido.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Raynor hole with Banks green

•   “The 18th hole Mr. Raynor feels will probably be the finest hole on the course.  The tee shot will be from an elevated position on the brow of the ravine which now runs along below the 10th fairway.  There will be ample fairway for any drive from 100 yards up, but an average drive will be necessary if one expects to have a clear shot up over the pond to the green, which will be placed near the present 18th tee.  This hole has all the essentials of a fine natural layout for a perfect golf hole.  It will provide a real test of golfing skill, but will present no insurmountable difficulties for the average player.  Furthermore, it will be extremely attractive in the picture which it will present to the eye.  For the timid players who do not wish to hazard the attempt to carry to the pond up over the brow of the hill, it is suggested that the old 12th green be continued, so that such players may have a comfortable and secure feeling when playing this final hole of the layout.  Mr. Raynor feels however, that this 18th hole will be so interesting that scarcely anyone will wish to sacrifice the pleasure of playing it in its more difficult form.”

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion a Raynor hole with Banks green

 
February 15, 1926 – Greens’Committee

•   The present No. 1 Green will be retained and altered to meet new conditions which, together with the new Nos. 2-3-4, will be completed and seeded next spring
•   Of the final 18 holes, it is expected  that in July of August, 11 will be in condition for play …


February 23, 1926 - Report to Board of Governors

•   Expended for account of the new course:  $52,921.55
•   Estimated to complete remaining work on 11 holes -- $35,548.00
•   For water system $10,000
•   For putting wires underground $1,750.00
•   Architect’s fees, etc. $2,500.
•   Estimated final cost of construction $101,638.98
•   “It is with deep regret that we have to report the death of Mr. Seth J. Raynor, our golf architect … he was able to complete the layout in a way that solved the problem to his own satisfaction…”
•   “Mr. Banks, his associate, who supervised the carrying out of Mr. Raynor’s ideas and was in active charge of the construction, has arranged to carry on the business and has expressed his desire to be permitted to complete the course in accordance with the plans of Mr. Raynor.”
•   “From the beginning of his work at Knollwood, Mr. Banks has shown more than ordinary interest and has been most conscientious in looking after the Club’s interest.”
•   “In view of the foregoing, your Committee feel that they are fortunate in having Mr. Banks to complete the work and strongly recommend that his services be retained.”
•   “Mr. Banks has arranged for one of the regular men in Mr. Raynor’s old organization, who previously has been in charge of building courses, to be head foreman in charge of the work, but under Mr. Decker’s supervision.” 
•   Water System – Mr. Banks has made up the specifications for the new system and we are now securing bids from competent firms and expect to have the system installed, work to begin as soon as the ground will permit.


 
April 5, 1926 – Annual Meeting

•   Mr. Brookmire reported for the Golf Committee.  He referred at the outset to the booklet which had been sent to all of the members explaining the layout of the new course.
•   11 of the final 18 holes would be in shape for use during the summer. 
•   The total cost involved in the purchase of approximately 40 acres of new land, the building of practically a new course with a modern water system, improvements to the house and the erection of a garage and parking space, will, when completed, have cost the Club approximately $178,000. 
•   The cost of completion of the golf course made by Mr. Raynor, and subsequently by Mr. Banks, who has succeeded him as Architect
•   Summer of 1926 – two priorities for golf Committee – one of which is the “completion of the construction of the new course.
•   Enclosed is a booklet called About the New Golf Course: An information booklet to the members of Knollwood Country Club
•   “Knollwood was fortunate in getting Mr. Raynor’s interest in reconstructing its course and in having Mr. Banks, his associate, to carry out the plans they made together.  Mr. Banks succeeds Mr. Raynor and will go on with the profession with the same high ideals.”



May 26, 1926 - Board of Governors

•   Mr. Breed and Mr. Brookmire reported as to the progress of the construction work on the new golf course.  They said that since the first of the year about $9,000 had been expended on further work, that the work was proceeding in accordance with the plans of the construction committee and that all was progressing favourably.

July 12, 1926 - Board of Governors


•   … Mr. Banks was requested to make a new estimate from July 1st for completion of the course and in a letter dated July 9th he advises that his estimate is $14,650, but that he feels he can keep within the original estimate.  This figure exceeds the original estimate by $1,373.25. 
•   The Committee feels that instead of remodelling the No. 1 and No. 15 greens, these two greens should be entirely rebuilt. 


 
September 17, 1927 - Green Committee

•   “… a report of the state of construction, amount expended and estimate to complete the new golf course as of September 9th.  All greens have been finished and seeded, all fairways have been finished and seeded, with some slight minor improvements to fairways, which largely will go under the head of Upkeep.”
•   “On September 11th the course was gone over for the special purpose of ascertaining just what remained to be finished and Mr. Banks was requested to submit his recommendation and give a detailed estimate of the cost of carrying out the remaining work.”
•   “A number of tees still remain to be built, but as the detailed statement shows, the course is now almost finished. “

Ian Andrew’s comments: In my opinion Charles Banks should be given credit for all work completed after the death of Seth Raynor. I believe that Charles Banks adapted many of Raynor’s plans after his death to suit field conditions and also to reflect some of his own beliefs in golf architecture.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2010, 07:51:00 pm »
OK Ian - now get to the details            ;D               ;D              ;D


great stuff man       !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gb
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Stewart Abramson

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2010, 09:14:17 pm »
This is fascinating stuff. What are the details of the falling out between the club and AWT?

Here is a link to a photo tour of Knollwood CC

https://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/sets/72157631832333790/

edited to replace outdated link
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 09:07:52 pm by Stewart Abramson »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2010, 10:09:30 pm »
Ian,

I guess I didn't email you the copies of Tilly's inspectioon made on July 15, 1936. I'll email you a copy. I think all will find his comments quite interesting. Here it is:


Ian Andrew

Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2010, 10:12:03 pm »
We have begun the work this fall - the first project was the 16th green site



This was the hole before the work


Jay Cox

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2010, 10:45:46 pm »
Ian, this series of posts is a perfect example of why I read this site.  Just fascinating.  And the work on Knollwood looks great too!

Mike Cirba

Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2010, 07:03:11 am »
Ian,

Thank you very much for sharing.

Found myself wishing that a number of other clubs had/preserved such detailed architectural records.

Mark McKeever

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2010, 09:01:47 am »
That new green complex looks awesome.  Thanks for sharing!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Sean_A

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2010, 09:08:10 am »
Ian

I greatly prefer the rolled down grass look (I spose flat bottoms come with this?) of the bunkering and it seems to be much more in vogue these days with restoration/redos - especially looking at Ross courses.  Its a more muscular style which affords more provacative shapes - reminds me of slightly less aggressive Myopia bunkering.  Was this style more popular back in the day?  Could this style have evolved from the heathlands?  I know many of those bunkers have the rolled down look, but in some cases heather hides this fact.  This is something folks forget when the see new bunkering without the veg. 

Ciao
Realistic Next Dozen: Charlotte CC, Carolina GC, Myers Park, Mimosa Hills, Orchard Lake, Moortown, Lindrick, Blackmoor, Welshpool, Hankley Common, Queenwood & Leckford

Robert Thompson

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2010, 10:28:32 am »
I love how Mark asked a quick question and surely got a more detailed response than expected.

Having played Knollwood with Ian last week, I'd say it is an intriguing course that will likely be much stronger when Mr. Andrew is finished. The work on the par-3 (Ian's photo) was exceptional, and there were some really great holes on the course (the finishing stretch is particularly strong).

Ian seems to demonstrate what every restorative project should have -- a strong research base where ever possible.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Michael J. Moss

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2010, 02:39:33 pm »
Ian:

I was recently at Knollwood for a meeting of the WGA Caddie Scholarship Fund. Hanging in their clubhouse along with some other wonderful memorabilia is an artist's rendering of the pre-constructed golf course. I believe it was produced by the surveyors (please correct me if I'm wrong), but Identifies Mr. Raynor as the architect. It clearly shows the 2nd green as a "Lion's Mouth." Was it ever built as such and are there thoughts of restoring it?

Best of luck.

Ian Andrew

Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2010, 08:56:01 pm »
It clearly shows the 2nd green as a "Lion's Mouth." Was it ever built as such and are there thoughts of restoring it?

Michael,

Funny story on that…

We knew from the outset that just about everything on the plan in the clubhouse was built. The question became whether this was an as built for the course done by the surveyor (not Raynor). I have the Raynor sketch (I’ll post later) for his initial plan that was quite different in places but was done at the outset when Tilly was fired.

I initially could not confirm the Lion’s Mouth and so it never made the Master Plan for restoration. I could not find proof of its existence, but I did mention it in my hole by hole report as a remaining mystery to be solved. Early on Jim and I went out and probed the soil and found the soil profile of the plateau on the right matched the green. We then probed the approach and finally some of the surrounds and found they all matched. After initially thinking we had solved the riddle, we remained perplexed by the fact that there seemed to be a plateau on the right.

It was a while later, after getting the 1926 aerial, that I was finally able to see that the green was built in a horseshow around the mound. What perplexes me is on the very next aerial the green had been altered.

I would speculate that it did exist and was almost immediately abandoned. The mounding is remarkably similar to the mounds around the 15th and there’s always a remote chance that Banks actually eliminated the feature during the construction of 1926 and that it was never in play.

To be frank, I still to this day am not sure what to suggest to the club on this hole. Jim and I plan to get everything else done and then tackle this one more time. I have talked briefly to George on this issue and he seemed to think we needed to rebuild the Lion’s Mouth.

This is great example of the shades of grey found in decision making on restorative based projects.

mark chalfant

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2010, 11:09:21 pm »
Ian,

Thanks  for your generosity in posting all these notes.  It s neat to learn so much about Knollwoods evolution.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2015, 12:26:24 pm »
A couple of followup articles on Knollwood.  The first notes Tillinghast's early involvement in the plans to remodel the course (July 1925 Golf Illustrated).

Note the photo of the "Short" at the 11th which was one of the new holes.






"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2015, 12:29:30 pm »
A second article from 2 years later describing the remodeled course and noting the involvement of Raynor and Banks (








"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2015, 12:32:52 pm »
A few photos of various holes from after the remodel.

Nov. 1928 Golf Illustrated -









Oct. 1932 Golf Illustrated -

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2015, 12:55:02 pm »
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."

“THE MOST IMPORTANT SHOT IN GOLF IS THE NEXT ONE”
BEN HOGAN

Ian Andrew

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2015, 01:45:13 pm »
The 3rd, 16th and 18th have been completed.
Green expansions on most of the holes too.

They are looking at the remaining bunkers for restoration, potentially this year.

Here is the 3rd


The back of the 3rd / 4th tee


Here is the 16th before


Here is the 16th after
« Last Edit: March 01, 2015, 01:47:31 pm by Ian Andrew »
Golf Architects are judged on the chances and risks they take with their art. Taking none is a choice and that work is rightfully dismissed

Ian Andrew

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2015, 01:49:32 pm »
If you ever want to get a good handle on the complications of restoration - read post #15 about the Lion's Mouth....
Golf Architects are judged on the chances and risks they take with their art. Taking none is a choice and that work is rightfully dismissed

Patrick_Mucci

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #23 on: March 01, 2015, 04:19:54 pm »

If you ever want to get a good handle on the complications of restoration - read post #15 about the Lion's Mouth....

Ian,

I played the course for the first time about a year or two ago.

I really, really liked it.

1953 aerials show no evidence of a "Lion's Mouth" bunker on # 2.
I was hoping to be able to access a 1931 aerial, but, it wasn't available.

# 18 has to be one of the great finishing holes in golf.


Ian Andrew

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Re: Knollwood (Raynor, A.W.T ) N.Y.
« Reply #24 on: March 01, 2015, 05:03:40 pm »
Pat,

1940 is the image closest to the 1926.
It's shows the current green site.

Banks did more work after finishing the course and remained as their consultant.
He shows up in the minutes a few times.

I have always assumed the changes were his.
I just don't know why or when.

or even whether to put the Lion's Mouth back ... George Bahto thought I should
Golf Architects are judged on the chances and risks they take with their art. Taking none is a choice and that work is rightfully dismissed

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