[Ally Mcintosh]

When you only play a course once or twice on a visit, do you think that the big dunes courses are easier to appreciate than the flatter links courses?

Do those who are regular GB&I golfers think that many of the latter get a slightly harder deal because they are more difficult to fall in love with instantly but reveal themselves over repeated plays?

Of course I'm talking in very general terms here...

[Jon Wiggett]

Ally,

I think the quality of a links course is more to do with the contours on the playing areas rather than the larger dunes which tend to be played around rather than over. Having said that the first course that comes to mind that plays over large dunes several times in the round is Prestwick which is an absolute blast the first time and gets better the more you play it.

Jon

[Bill_McBride]

Ally, how would you classify Porthcawl?  There were dunes and flat areas and even hills!

[Sean_A]

Ally

No question that dunes take centre stage on GB&I courses and rightfully so.  But with dunes usually come drawbacks such as constricted play (often times the space between dunes isn't wide enough), lots of blind holes if the dune valleys aren't followed, restricted views, almost an overwhelming archie temptation to build high tee, low fairway and high green and longer walks green to tee.  Over time these drawbacks have become more apparent to me and the inclusion of flat areas on a course a welcome relief.  I think flat land can often be a chance for an archie to show what he can do and I am more impressed by good flat holes than good dune holes.  Still, I can't really think of a truly flat links which really stands out as superb.  The concept of flatness works better when interwoven with dunes rather than on its own.

Ciao

[Gary Slatter]

Ally, in my opinion the dunes portion of courses get all the notice.  Take my favourite, Royal Aberdeen.  The back nine probably has more good golf holes but everyone says they love the front nine.    From watching the Trump Show about his new tract, it might become "too much dunes golf" but the jury will be out for some time.

I agree with your premise 100%.

[Niall C]

Ally

Absolutely and not only dunes but sea views seem to be the order of the day. Reread the recent thread on why no love for Royal Troon and I think a lot one time players of Troon dismiss the fisrt half a dozen and the last half a dozen as boring but in fact there is some very good golf in there. Bottom line is we are all susceptible to eye candy to some degree.

Niall

[Emil Weber]

When you only play a course once or twice on a visit, do you think that the big dunes courses are easier to appreciate than the flatter links courses?

Speaking for 90% of all golfers i would say..... YES.

In my experience, apprecieation for visually less appealing courses comes with growing knowledge about GCA. I remember 5 years ago, I played a  links course with huge dunes, and I was just blown away by the course and thought it was the best I ever played. When I started to get interested in GCA, I realised there is actually not so much behind the layout, and stopped liking courses by how beautiful they were or how big their dunes are.

Still, as aesthetics are (still ) important to me in architecture, I would say that if there were two exactly similar holes of the same quality, one with lined by big dunes and the sea, one on a flat inland piece, I would say that the one with the dunes and the sea is a better hole, because it is more enjoyable to play (even if you hit the same shots)...

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally, how would you classify Porthcawl?  There were dunes and flat areas and even hills!

Bill, I suppose I would classify Porthcawl as a "flat" course with two shelves. I don't see it as a "dunes" course certainly.

Still, I can't really think of a truly flat links which really stands out as superb.  

Maybe you are on to something here Sean. Equally, I look at some of the flat courses and struggle to find weak links in the whole whereas these are easier to pin point in the Dunes courses.

Still, flat courses for me are TOC, Carnoustie, Hoylake, Lytham, Portmarnock, Deal, Troon... None of these are of course "flat" when the micro-undulations affect the playing strategy so much.

[Jason Topp]

I would guess that as a whole, the most highly rated flat courses are held in higher esteem than the most highly rated dunes courses.

I would rather walk a flat course.  I would rather look at a dunes course.  I'll enjoy them both as often as I am able to do so.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Great Premise Ally and I would add to your list the New, Muirfield, Waterville (?)  and Aberdovey.  I hesitate as I’ve not played many of these course a no of times, excepting Deal and that one has certainly turned me round. I liked (but not undying love) Princes and Littlestone on  my first visit and these would then next most played flat courses, but I’ve enjoyed them more with each play, but they're still not near the top of the list.  Whereas after 25+ rounds on Deal, it is.

But Dunes don’t just offer spectacle they also offer the architect the chance to introduce a little elevation and blindness – two features I know I love.  Brancaster and North Berwick are (for the most part) not Dunes courses but they certainly appealled on the first visit, perhaps it’s a combination of looks and these features that make holes so immediately appealing?

There’s also the fact that Dunes courses tend to be more photogenic and for the first time player there’s that thrill of recognising you are finally playing e.g the 9th at RCD.
 
Courses that have a mix of these types of terrain can be hard to predict ones feeling for.  Wallasey suffers from it’s slightly lack lustre flat section but not nearly as much as Portstewart which is a course of two halves, the flat one coming second. Burnham does it best.

All of which tends to suggests the ‘tourist’ should visit the famous Dunes course if they have a limited time and the desire to experience the most bang for buck?  It’s often said many plays are needed to truly appreciate TOC, why even try these other courses if you know you’re unlikely to ‘get’ them first time out?  With so much choice and such little time, what visitor is going to plan to visit Troon 5 times to appreciate it fully?


So how flat is Portmarnock, which seems to generate this type of response?

[Sean_A]

Ally, how would you classify Porthcawl?  There were dunes and flat areas and even hills!

Bill, I suppose I would classify Porthcawl as a "flat" course with two shelves. I don't see it as a "dunes" course certainly.

Still, I can't really think of a truly flat links which really stands out as superb.  

Maybe you are on to something here Sean. Equally, I look at some of the flat courses and struggle to find weak links in the whole whereas these are easier to pin point in the Dunes courses.

Still, flat courses for me are TOC, Carnoustie, Hoylake, Lytham, Portmarnock, Deal, Troon... None of these are of course "flat" when the micro-undulations affect the playing strategy so much.

Ally

Okay, I get your idea of flat as an either or situation VS dunes.  The courses you listed I wouldn't call truly flat and indeed, a place like Deal is about as ideal terrain as one could hope for.  It is true that some of the courses you suggest as flat have significant sections of flat terrain and often times I am disappointed with how the holes cope with the flat - most especially Lytham.  Hoylake does an admirable job with its flat land, but part of that is the quality of the turf which is top notch.  Unfortunately, like it or not, oob is largely what defines HOYLAKE and that has been eroded to some degree in recent years.  In the end though it matters little, the mix isn't quite right for me to really love Hoylake.  The one course which interests me in this bunch is Portmarnock (really!).  I wasn't bowled over by it on my rounds, but perceptions change and people change.  The course didn't seem to distinguish itself very well from the tee - rather like Princes, but for slightly different reasons.

Ciao

[Rory Connaughton]

Ally

  My observation is consistent with your premise.  I have organized a trip to Ireland every year since 2005.  Since I am an overseas member at Enniscrone, the trip always involves a visit there and usually a visit to Portmarnock for a game the day before the flight home.  Many of the guys who were on the first trip have made the trip 3 and 4 times.  During the first trip, the group was blown away by the massive dunes at Enniscrone.  That had a lot to do with the fact that for many it was the first links experience but the dunes and their sheer size were so different from what the group was used to that they couldn't help but be blown away.

Since that first trip the repeat visitors have come to appreciate the flatter holes at Enniscrone more and more (for my money 5 and 10 are two of the best holes on the course).  Ballyliffin Old was one of our recent outings and far more popular than Glashedy.  We have played RCD and Portrush many times and each gets its due respect but not simply because of the dunes.  What I am seeing is that my groups love the big dunes as long as there is more to the course.  Rosses Point and Portmarnock have both been very popular due to the architecture (in the case of portmarnock terrific bunkering and great green sites) and the interest created by other topographical features.  Glashedy is an example of a dunes course where there was some disappointment on a recent trip because the ground between the dunes was very flat.  Lahinch and Enniscrone continue to be very popular because there is a lot of movement in the fairways between the dunes and plenty of elevation changes and lots of interesting things happen to the ball when its on the ground.

To address Portmarnock, while the site is relatively flat, fantastic use is made of the ridge line that separates the course from the beach.  12 (par three) green is fantastic and beautifully bunkered. 14 (par 4) is a great driving hole and the green is perched on the same ridge. Again a terrific green site with great bunkering.  15 (par three) plays parallel to the ridge and is one of the great par threes in Ireland. Small green and nothing but beach to the right.  10 and 18 also make great use of little hillocks for green sites.  I guess my point is that while PGC does not have dunes of a massive scale the topography is used to maximum effect and combined with excellent bunkering, the course is very compelling with very little natural Wow factor.

[Tom_Doak]

Ally,

I believe the big dunes took priority once the Americans started being the judges.  I don't think it was true as much when British golfers were the judges, although, the fame of the Alps and the Maiden are not American in origin.

[Ally Mcintosh]

So how flat is Portmarnock, which seems to generate this type of response?

Tony, Portmarnock is undoubtedly a flat course. It does have more roll in the fairway than Muirfield for example, probably Carnoustie also. But it certainly doesn't have the same fairway movement as Deal or TOC. Overall elevation change is very small but Rory makes a great point about the green sites. He mentions the greens that have been placed in to the main dune ridge, specifically 12, 14 & 15. The 6th green is the same. Aside from those, you have three elevated greens with run-offs (8th, 10th and to a lesser extent 18th). Then you have a number of classic grade level greens which are old style and don't give the wow factor to first time visitors but are fantastic for the ground game and enable three of the holes (3, 13 & 17) to offer genuinely deceptive approach shots as the sightline of minute ridges 30- 40 yards short are tied in to the green level. All the greens themselves have some good internal contours but they are usually fairly subtle. They are not as obviously tied in to surrounding rolls as say Deal because the surrounding rolls are usually less...

The one course which interests me in this bunch is Portmarnock (really!).  I wasn't bowled over by it on my rounds, but perceptions change and people change.  The course didn't seem to distinguish itself very well from the tee

Sean, I will concede this point but I'm not sure I'm willing to see it as entirely negative. Aside from the fully blind drive on the 5th, a few of the holes (2, 8, 10, 11) have tee shots where the green is in full sight but the landing area for the tee-shot is either partially or fully hidden. Because these tee-shots are not framed by mounding on each side, the obvious decision is to aim your tee-shot on the line of the green. In all cases mentioned, this is the wrong decision. I quite like this aspect although I'd be tempted to take down some gorse on 10 & 11 which hinder the drive in the same way as a few holes on TOC.

Portmarnock is certainly not a "wow" factor course on first visit. But the aura, the scale and the subtleties of the place give plentiful reward over repeated visits. On top of that, the open views, land and routing provide for a good stroll that isn't hard on the knees or too exhausting.

OK... Sales pitch over...Back to the thread...

[Sean_A]

Ally

Yes, you could well be right about Portmarnock off the tee.  I do recall liking the mix of green sites and the gentle roll of the terrain (the best attributes of the course). 

Tony Muldoon mentioned Burnham as course which mixes flat and dune well.  Someone else mentioned Enniscrone - which I heartily agree with.  I would also throw out Sligo which has the advantage of a few water holes (and good ones at that) as a course with a good mix, though I could understand if folks likened it more to Porthcawl as a course with separate levels rather than dune/flat.  In truth, it lies somewhere inbetween.  Interestingly, I think Sligo is the better of the two by a pip, but I would much rather play it over Porthcawl.  Mainly this is due to the flatter holes at Sligo being better than Porthcawl's - again, the water helps immensely to distinguish Sligo as something a bit different.

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

It still alarms me that some folks view Deal as a "flat"course. I realise in this instance we are talking about flanking dunes, but keep in mind the sea wall is no higher than the original frontal dune. It was simply solidified and had low points raised to the predominant height to keep the sea out (as relayed by two long-term members).

As far as a fronting dune goes that is far from flat and the dunes around 3, 4, 5, 6, 15, 16, 17 and 18 are significant. That's half of the golf course!

As for contours in the fairways, I think it is taking the term to a pretty big stretch to describe what's happening in the 3rd, 5th, 15th, 16th and 17th fairways as "micro-undulations". There are parts of the 3rd, 5th and 15th fairways that rise much more steeply at times than 1:1 to a height of up to 20ft on the 5th, 15ft on the 17th and 8-9ft on the 15th. Elsewhere are steady "swells" of 6ft.

I think one thing we do when we seek to pigeonhole courses is dilute the accuracy of our descriptions.

I think what we see within Deal as an example is instant enjoyment and appreciation of such holes as 3, 6, 15, 16 and 17 (and rightly so) where the dramatic land is located, and a much slower burn at the likes of 1, 2, 4, 7, 10, 12, 14 and 18, which are all exceptional holes in their own right.

Simply, I think the overwhelming hit of the sensory overload that massive dunes, the sight and sound of the sea, skylarks and gulls and links shotmaking brings is what flicks an immediate switch at some sites and not others.

The satisfactions of subtlety take longer to make an impact, but when they do it is just as satisfying. I guess that brings me back to the very good point Ally made in the OP that on a "hit and run" tour you sometimes miss out on earning that intimacy with the more subtle holes and courses. I find that even if I think I can identify with my head in a single play a hole that seems to possess those qualities, I can't really feel it with my heart, no matter how hard I try. That takes time.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Ally - I think Troon is a mixture of flat and duney. Perhaps the answer to your question almost lies with the evaluation by those on here of how the holes 1-6 & 14-18 versus 7-13 are perceived.
Lytham's got a bit of twist as well, not huge dunes but there are a few blindeys! <new word> Plus a fair elevation change and both 8 and 9.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

In Ran's essay on Kennemer he points out how good Colt was in working with the flatter ground. I don't feel disappointed when I get to these holes. The dunes at nearby Noordwijk might look more photogenic but (while there are some excellent dunes holes) it doesn't seem to add up to such a memorable course. Cross the border into Belgium and you come to Royal Zoute which hardly changes level at all, but it's a very clever course.

There is quite an interesting discussion on the course evolving into the dunes at Hoylake in Anthony Shone's new book, but I'll not give the plot away - buy the book and enjoy it!

I remember playing Wallasey some years ago with the then Secretary. This was before Donald Steel made some amendments, but Donald had recently visited the club. He had made the point that it is no bad thing to have some flatter holes to give a change of pace and style and to lure the golfer into a false sense of security.

Silloth has its flatter holes while Seascale tumbles around like a mad thing. But I suspect most on here would rate Silloth a couple of hundred places above Seascale in the rankings.

Seaton Carew is hardly over-run with dunes, but those it has are used very well. Try Cleveland, just over the river - flatter still, but a solid links nonetheless.

Southerness is pretty flat, too, but it's a good course (aided no doubt by being off the beaten track).

Conwy these days is exceptionally flat, its dunes having been ruined by the military camps there is both world wars, but it is very resistant to scoring and the sea and mountain views make up for the lack.

Harlech is often criticised on this site for making little use of the dunes. If you've read Shone you'll understand why they couldn't always exploit the dunes in the early days. There are some very solid holes among the early, flat ones. Aberdovey has a similar conflict of styles, but I love it.

Formby's tumbling dune holes are most attractive, and beautifully routed in the middle of the round. Funnily enough it doesn't seem anticlimactic to start and finish on the flat.

To see how to lay out a strong course on unpromising links land perhaps West Lancs is a prime example. It looks terribly dull - I've tried to photograph it and it is largely impossible - but it is a very strong and hugely enjoyable test.

Southport and Ainsdale is as bland-looking as they come, and the dunes are hardly impressive, but they do produce a couple of outstanding holes.

Seacroft gets little press here - it's way off the trodden path - but its mixture of flat holes and a central ridge of dunes is clever and challenging in a similar manner perhaps to its near neighbour (if you happen to posses a hovercraft) Hunstanton.

Rye is one of those places that, if you were to drive past in the car, you might wonder what all the fuss was about. These are hardly the mountainous dunes of Sandwich or Birkdale, but we all know how very effectively they have been exploited in the design.

Royal North Devon is one of those places you either love or loathe. Part of its character is its general flatness. It doesn't make it any easier. I am one of those who loves it.

Trevose is pretty flat, too, and perhaps I need to go back because I clearly didn't appreciate all the positives that Paul Turner pointed out to me on this site some years ago.

Luffness New might be the flattest of the lot. It doesn't seem to attract much comment on here - well, it isn't Merion, is it? - but I've always valued Donald Steel's appreciation of the course in his classic links book.

St Enodoc looks immediately impressive, and it is. Dunes, flatter holes, stone walls, sea views. It ticks so many boxes.

West Cornwall has a great deal packed into its diminutive acreage. A church and graveyard, a railway, some unmemorable holes and some exceedingly memorable holes in tumbling dunes brilliantly exploited. Add the fine sea views and marvellous light and it all adds up to a lovely experience.

Aren't we lucky! So many fine links courses! And which is my favourite? The one I'm playing on when asked that question. Do we have any bad links courses?

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