[Tom MacWood]

The article on Tulsa is a little confusing. Tilly was not there in 1916, he drew up plans in 1919 and the course was constructed in 1920. 1916 is probably the year CC of Tulsa moved to a new location because I've seen a 1920 report that stated Tilly was extending an existing course. However I believe he did more than just extend the course because he advertised in 1920 that it was a new design, and he listed it later as an original design in his 1925-26 advertisement pamphlet, which broke out all his designs and redesigns.

[Tom_Doak]

Rick and Philip:

It has been at least ten years since I was at Baltusrol, so no, it's not fair for me to characterize a recent restoration at all.  I am surprised that so much has been done to reverse things that had been done for major championship play; that is a rarity in the modern era. 

Still, I am more interested in which Tillinghast courses have been best preserved, than in which have been restored ... because in the latter case you've still just got to rely on the restorer and the historian to tell you what's right, instead of what was actually in the ground all along.

[Joe Bausch]

I don't know if Langford officially got involved, but this article from 1917 suggests he was on the radar.

[Jerry Kluger]

Perhaps my post wasn't clear - I was questioning why anyone would look at Baltusrol when Ridgewood and WFW are in the neighborhood.

[Phil_the_Author]

Jerry,

Why do you seem to be implying that Ridgewood and WFW are better examples of Tilly's work? I'm not saying they are or aren't, but wondering why you think so.

[Phil_the_Author]

"Still, I am more interested in which Tillinghast courses have been best preserved, than in which have been restored..."

Tom, that is the most difficult of all questions whether it be of Tilly, Ross, Mackenzie, etc... As you phrase "best preserved" seems to imply, I am of the opinion that finding a course NOT touched from its original state from that time-frame is like finding a unicorn in the woods...

The best that one can hope for is to see examples of courses where minimal changes took place yet even identifying these are difficult, especially in the case of Tilly. Not that there aren't any, rather because his designs were not necessarily similar to one another and depended on the lay of the land and how to make holes natural to that rather than a style imposed upon it.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tilly did not design the Tulsa CC in 1919. He first visited the course for the purpose of redesigning it on March 28th, 1920. He arrived there directly after having designed Brook Hollow earlier that month.

On March 30th he typed a contract proposal for the club and after it was immediately approved, left to return home to New Jersey where he would THEN design the course on paper after receiving the engineer's drawings showing the placements of the stakes he would place in the ground defining holes, tees, greens, hazards, etc... the following few days.

Also, the original course was completely demolished in the Tillinghast re-do which is why Tilly considered it a new and original design. His view on that was specific to the project and some he consdered as redesigns that others would view as original and, as in the case of Tulsa, the opposite. The 1916 date is important because of the fire that destroyed the original log cabin clubhouse. The membership, which was small, was greatly divided over what to do to replace it. Some wanted to rebuild the small, intimate clubhouse as it was while others wanted to build a grand country club house and with that expand the membership. They won out. In order to pay for it they needed those new members and in order for them to come they needed a much better golf course. It probably would have been done sooner and by someone other than Tilly but that pesky WW I thing got in the way. In 1919 Tilly's name was known nationwide as a very good architect and so he was invited there for a look and got the job. One of the reasons he was invited was because of rel;ationships between a number of those at Brook Hollow and those at Tulsa.

[Jerry Kluger]

Philip: I have been fortunate to play Baltusrol and Ridgewood a number of times and I have found the architecture at Ridgewood far more interesting and it hasn't been touched by Rees - I have seen WFW and again I find it far more compelling architecturally than Baltusrol.  

[Phil_the_Author]

Jerry,

Your comment seems to display a predisposed bias against Rees. I don't mean that judgementally, but you also forget work done at the other club's since Tilly was there. For example, Fazio has "softened" a number of the dynamic greens at Winged Foot. One might scream sacrilege while other might stand resolutely and insist it was necessary.

One of the fascinating aspects about Baltusrol for me is how Tilly was able to create two new courses where one had existed before and keep 18 holes open for play throughout the entire process even though he was changing those same holes. Also, look how his design used the land. If you go to Ed Oden's thread on the maps and drawings and locate baltusrol's, you'll see that there is a square like appendage sticking out from the property as a whole. In this he placed 6 holes. Where most architects would have run them parallell in some manner to each other thinking themselves constrained against doing anything else, Tilly found a way to have each hole running ina different direction and at angles to the others! It was a remarkable job of routing and a feature of Tilly's designing prowess that should be studied by other architects.

[Tom MacWood]

The Tillinghast Association has done a lot of good things, but associating themselves with and enabling Rees Jones is not one of them.

[Phil_the_Author]

"The Tillinghast Association has done a lot of good things, but associating themselves with and enabling Rees Jones is not one of them."

Tom we are so open-minded that we would even associate with and enable and aid Tom Macwood in his research efforts! 

[Tom MacWood]

http://www.reesjonesinc.com/completely-renovated-courses.php

http://www.reesjonesinc.com/renovated-courses.php

Phil-the-author
Here is a link to Rees Jones 'completely remodeled courses' and 'remodeled courses', which are his most sensitive restorations in your opinion?

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom the Mac,

I have no wish to discuss that with you. This is a thread about Tulsa CC. By the way, if you would like to make a suggestion to the Tillinghast Association about who we should or shouldn't aid when asked for research help, join it yourself and bring the issue up at the next Association meeting.

[Mike_Young]

"The Tillinghast Association has done a lot of good things, but associating themselves with and enabling Rees Jones is not one of them."

Tom we are so open-minded that we would even associate with and enable and aid Tom Macwood in his research efforts! 

Phil ,
I would see nothing wrong with a dead architect assoc referring Rees Jones....I would think Tilly would probably rather have a person with his experience over that of some of the "restoration experts" that have none of their own work....
BUT....I think the real problem that often gets blamed on the Rees Jones or the Fazio or whomever it may be...is what they are "charged " to do by an unknowing membership.  Tom Doak in an earlier post mentions "preserving" instead of restoration or renovation.  In these slow days it is hard to get people to push a "preservation" when they can do a renovation or restoration for much more $$$$.   What I think most guys on here really like is preservation which to me means "spoonfeeding construction" techniques to bring back the edges and forms that are hidden.  Destruction in the name of renovation or restoration is rarely needed....BUT if it comes to that then I would just as soon have a Rees as anyone....

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

You raise an very valid point. Recently, at a very well-known Tillinghast club, the Green Committee wanted to change a hole by having a lake installed where there was none before nor any other water feature. The reasoning behind it had to do with how far the young great players are hitting it and how the hole has been turned into a driver and flip wedge for them. The architect they are working with is Rees. Fortunately saner minds finally prevailed when it was pointed out that it would turn the hole into a 3-metal and a full-wedge for these same players...

But think of the howling and screaming that would have taken place on here by those who think ill of Rees' work even without ever having seen it or played it if the club decided to go through with the redesign. Think of how many people on here would have blamed Rees for "putting his imprint" on and "Reesifying" a great course and ruining a Tilly design when it would actually have been the GREEN COMMITTTEE and the Board of Directors who had conceived it, ordered it done and wanted it!

Too many architects get blamed for simply doing the work that they are hired to do, especially when they aren't in a financial position to not do the work.

Not surprisingly this has gone on since club was first held in hand and ball swung at and Tilly himself wrote about the "well-intentioned damage caused by green committee's" in America.

And mike, let's get going, you're TWO posts behind me! 

[Tom MacWood]

Tom the Mac,

I have no wish to discuss that with you. This is a thread about Tulsa CC. By the way, if you would like to make a suggestion to the Tillinghast Association about who we should or shouldn't aid when asked for research help, join it yourself and bring the issue up at the next Association meeting.

This thread is about Rees Jones' redesign or restoration of Tulsa. My question deals directly with Rees Jones and his past redesigns and restorations. You have touched on Baltusrol, Winged Foot, SFGC, and Ridgewood on this thread so you must have another reason for refusing to answer my question.

My comment about the Tillinghast Association had nothing to do with aiding architects with research help. The Tillinghast Association has done a lot of good things, but IMO they have done a very poor job of protecting his work. Rees Jones has a long track record of disfiguring/redesigning classic golf courses, including a number of Tillinghast courses. He is the last person you'd want near one of his courses. And what does the home club of the founding members of the Association do? They hire Rees Jones. That sends a strong message to Tillinghast clubs all over the country, a disturbing and perverted message in my opinion.

[Tom MacWood]

If Tulsa CC has no documentation and is interested in restoring a Tillinghast style to their course I would suggest they go digging for information in Dallas. In 1920 Tilly had four projects he was working on simultaneously based out of Dallas: Brook Hollow, Dallas, Cedar Crest and Tulsa. I would assume those courses shared a similar style.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom the Mac,

Yes, there is another reason and you know what it is. Just look at the nature of your comments on this thread. It is apparent that you are merely looking to have an argument rather than a discussion. THAT is why I see no reason to even attempt to have one with you.

Secondly, you are completely close-minded when it comes to Rees Jones and you also lack all understanding of how the Tillinghast Association works and helps ANYONE who asks it of us.

Thirdly, you HAVEN'T seen the work which Rees has done at Baltusrol yet you vilify it. A tad bit hypocritical I would say. I HAVE seen it and I also understand the complexity of the membership at that Club. You don't. You show this by your statement "And what does the home club of the founding members of the Association do? They hire Rees Jones. That sends a strong message to Tillinghast clubs all over the country, a disturbing and perverted message in my opinion." That is simply more than a bit bizarre. The only message the Club has "sent" is that they have chosen to work with Rees Jones and they LIKE his work!

Finally, how do YOU KNOW what Tulsa, Rees Jones or anyone else in the project did or didn't do in researching what to do with this project? You claim to by your statement "If Tulsa CC has no documentation and is interested in restoring a Tillinghast style to their course I would suggest they go digging for information in Dallas." You simply have no idea whatsoever of the facts behind the statements you've made, yet heaven forbid if someone should disagree with you for YOU will demand that THEY show the "facts" and when they post some you'll either vilify them or ignore what has been written.

Sorry Tom, but all your statements on this thread do is show an incredible BIAS, a LACK of any open-mind, a POOR understanding of the quality of work that Rees' and his people have done and HOW LITTLE you know about Tilly and his work for the three courses in Dallas are all distinctly DIFFERENT in design "style" as his designs were SITE SPECIFIC! Anyone who did even a bit of research on those courses would understand that. You also need a history lesson; Tilly was working on a number of courses during that same time period, yet what good would that do anyone to compare the work at Tulsa with what he was doing at BALTUSROL, the San Francisco Golf Club, Quaker Ridge, Mt. Kisco, Spring Lake, Sound Beach, Shawnee, Suburban, Kingsport in Tennessee and many others. WHY NOT GO STUDY THESE since they were done during the SAME TIME PERIOD and by your logic should have the same style? The answer is because they DON'T! By the way, Rees' has worked at several of those clubs and would understand his "style" from 1920 far better than you have shown.

No, Tom, all you want to do is argue and I will refrain from doing so. If that means you don't care for my lack of answers to obviously argumentative comments... oh well, the sun is shining someplace even if it isn't where you happen to be...

[Mark Saltzman]

A couple of updates from Tulsa CC's website:

http://www.tulsacountryclub.com/ImgUL/files/TulsaCountryClub%20-%20Rees%20Jones.pdf

http://www.tulsacountryclub.com/ImgUL/files/Press%20Release%20-%20Grand%20Re-Opening.pdf

http://www.tulsacountryclub.com/index.cfm?id=9


Has anyone visited Tulsa CC since it re-opened last year? Thoughts?

[Tom_Doak]

A couple of updates from Tulsa CC's website:

http://www.tulsacountryclub.com/ImgUL/files/TulsaCountryClub%20-%20Rees%20Jones.pdf

http://www.tulsacountryclub.com/ImgUL/files/Press%20Release%20-%20Grand%20Re-Opening.pdf

http://www.tulsacountryclub.com/index.cfm?id=9


Has anyone visited Tulsa CC since it re-opened last year? Thoughts?

Those are funny to read.  The first one proclaims that it is an all-new Rees Jones redesign, the second one posits that Rees restored Tillinghast's concepts.  The second one has some passages that made me cringe.

That said, I only saw Tulsa Country Club one time, thirty summers ago, and it was a shell of a Tillinghast course at that point.  It's not like they have messed with some of his best work here.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Wow what a BJ tribute to Rees. Also I am amazed any Board was stupid enough to spend that much money with their eyes open and any sense of due diligence. I hope they got what they wanted and are happy with it. Yes Rees did a good job for MPCC. that was a long time ago. He did Baton Rouge Country Club as few years ago. It was an old classic design that is now a Rees Jones course. David Toms was the local who paved the way for that Rees job on the membership.

[Mike Nuzzo]

What is the Digest top architects list?

As far a price on a limited budget goes, it might not be too bad of a price per update:  $6MM/myriad =

[Sam Morrow]

Tulsa CC had almost no Tilly left. They have changed the routing and sequencing of the holes many times. When I was there 10 years ago my caddy told me that 5 different holes had at one time been #1. If you're going also realize it's in the hood, I'm talking the hood. Pack some heat.

[Ed Oden]

I stumbled across this old thread while looking for something else and thought I would add a few thoughts.  

Sam is correct that the routing has definitely changed at Tulsa CC.  However, the vast majority of the holes still play play through the same corridors from what I can tell.  Here is a post-Rees restoration aerial of the course...



...and a 1967 aerial...



Most of the routing changes are in the SW corner of the property to current holes 1, 2 and 9 and to the NW corner to current holes 16-18.  For what it's worth, those routing changes all occurred prior to Rees' work.

The bunkers are pure Rees.  He may have channeled his inner Tilly but, as far as I can tell, very few of them were part of the original design (unless they were all lost prior to 1967).  

I suspect that the greens similarly bear little resemblance to the originals although they may very well be representative of what Rees has seen at other Tillinghast courses.

FYI, post-restored photos of the course from a visit a couple of years ago can be found here... https://www.flickr.com/photos/eko_gfl/sets/72157629779363456/

[Tom_Doak]

It looks as though the routing changes were precipitated by a new clubhouse location -- you can see the new clubhouse being built in 1967, but the only adjacent golf hole plays right past it.  It looks like the clubhouse was previously along the eastern boundary at the midpoint, but it's hard to tell for sure because the photo is so tightly cropped.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()