[Tim Bert]

I always go to Whistling Straits and Blackwolf Run River immediately on threads like this.  The general opinion I have heard from many that have played these courses, along with the magazine ratings of these two, are consistently out of whack with my opinion.  I actually liked the Straits course, but not to the degree of most.  I'd certainly play it again, though it is way down the wait list before I'd drop the kind of money they are asking for the privilege.  As for the River, it just didn't do much for me. 

I would also say that Bandon Dunes and Bandon Trails are generally over-rated, and this is again speaking relatively.  I like all four courses at the resort and still make a point to play each of the four at least once each time I visit.  I think Bandon Dunes is wonderful, but coupled with Whistling Straits, these two courses in the top 5 modern on Golfweek's list seems a little out of kilter with the rest of a list that largely jives with my take on courses.  I don't ever see myself playing Bandon Trails more than once per trip again, and haven't done so since the first trip I made after it opened. 

If Bandon Dunes resort had only two courses and it were these two, then I would have still made the trip out there and I would have still raved about the two courses.  At the same time, I wouldn't have made 3 more return trips with plans for more in the future.  Once would have sufficed.

[JR Potts]

Pinehurst #2 takes the cake for me...however, I suspect that opinion is going to change once Coore and Crenshaw are finished with it.

[Ronald Montesano]

The psychology of the contributors to this thread is what interests me the most.  I found Bandon Trails to be the most unique of Dunes 1, Dunes 2 and Trails when I was out there in aught five.  Having the opportunity to play the three again, plus visit Sheep Ranch and EIEIO would certainly give this opinion a tousle, but I suspect that it would be quite difficult for me to declare any of the four to be overrated.

It is interesting to me that BR is the course that Tim Bert brought up at the American Club complex.  I found Irish to be much less consistent than Straits.  I also found the opening four holes at Meadows Valley to be snorers.  Whereas Irish closes with 2-3 iffy to horrible holes, Meadows Valley rises to a crescendo at 12-16.  17 I could do without and 18 was a wee bit narrow in the landing area.

I just got off the phone with a fellow GCA'er and spoke of Hogan's assessment of P#2 having few truly memorable holes.  I suspect that it has 18 or so of them, but the land itself is not dramatic enough to offer vertical change.  The course is simply a damned solid one that allows no weak thinker to maneuver around the place.  My only trip round was back in '82, as the course was emerging from the dark days.  It won't stun you with mountainous drops and climbs, yet its vistas are rewarding and more than forgettable.

[Richard Choi]

For over $200, wouldn't it be easier to name courses that are worth $200 rather than the other way around?

[Alex Miller]

Do

wait for it.........



ral.

[Rick Shefchik]

Spyglass Hill at $350. It's a good course, but this is where I draw the line at experience-type course. I've experienced Spyglass; I don't need to play it again, regardless of the price. I'd still love to play Pebble Beach again, and I don't even know what they're charging now. I don't care.

[Sam Morrow]

colonial.A nice course but classic river bottom flat.A sameness to the par 4s.This gets exaggerated on a par 70 when the first hole is a par 5.

Interesting you say that Mike, I like the variety in the par 4's at Colonial, the only one that I don't really care for is 7.

[Martin Toal]

I was seriously underwhelmed by Torrey Pines and Doral Blue.

Torrey was a bit of a dull slog in pretty surroundings with the cliffs and coastline. Pace of play was also hideous. The cost of playing varies according to where you live and how you book, but local residents with fast dialling fingers can get on for less than $50, I think.

Doral Blue was beautifully finished and presented but just rather boring. When I had finished the front side, I couldn't remember some of the holes. It was rather expensive.

[Mark Chaplin]

Clint if I gave you three glasses of wine and you enjoyed them equally, then told you the bottle prices were $15, $100 & $500 you'd still rank them equally?

[Sean_A]

Clint if I gave you three glasses of wine and you enjoyed them equally, then told you the bottle prices were $15, $100 & $500 you'd still rank them equally?

Chappers

I spose you know I wouldn't!  I would certainly rank the cheaper wine highest.  This in fact is a cornerstone of how look at courses (and wine). 

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Chappers,

Robert Parker would claim that he would rank those three wines equally.

[Sean_A]

Chappers,

Robert Parker would claim that he would rank those three wines equally.

Mark

Parker doesn't have to pay for his wine so he can have that luxury of idealism.  Though to be fair, what I mean by better in this case is better value.  It would take a fool to buy wine for x amount more when he believes he can get wine Y which is just as satisfying for less.  IMO, the same could be said of nearly all products with the function of value being a sliding scale depending on willingness to spend or perhaps affordability.  For instance, my willingness to spend increases for gift buying or if I am buying a car for a specific purpose etc etc.

Ciao

Ciao

[Gary Slatter]

Torrey Pines - both courses      Boring slogs
Pinehurst 2   - too many changes, hopefullly the last one lasts
White Course at Doral - almost but doesn't play like a real course
Whistling Straits - fake everything except the lake
TPC Sawgrass - only good from the championship tees, from the other tees almost unplayable

Many others already mentioned are courses that I like, at the market price.

[Mike_Young]

Clint if I gave you three glasses of wine and you enjoyed them equally, then told you the bottle prices were $15, $100 & $500 you'd still rank them equally?

Even better..what if I took a funnel and poured the wines in each others bottles?  and you still liked them all?  sort of like not knowing the architect until after a few plays....

[Rob_Waldron]

I agree with Ryan that Pinehurst #2 is hands down the most overrated course in America. (Sorry Paul). I would prefer to play either course at Forest Creek or #4 any day. I was very disappointed with Blackwolf Run as well and do not think it deserves a Top 100 except for the State of Wisconsin.

[John Shimp]

Rob,
Are you saying the Forest Creek courses and #4 are better than #2 or that you enjoy them more.  Big difference.  All those other courses are far easier to make a score on than #2 which requires far better iron play, pre shot thinking, and short game variety and options.  I agree that #2 aint that pretty (thats about to change to some degree) but its a heck of a challenge for even the best players. 

[Steve Salmen]

Matt Ward,

I did not pay for my round at Cascata. I played with a friend whos boss belonged to a golf club that allowed so many rounds on a group of courses.  I was a beneficiary.

That being said,  it is very possible my opinion is shaped by the $500 green fee.  I remember thinking I'd pay $150 for 5 hours of cart golf and beer drinking with my buddies.

I once turned down an invitation to play Rich Harvest for free.  I have also never exercised my open invitation to Butler National.

Funny, I think Pebble is overrated and Pinehurst is one of the best golf courses in the world.  Perhaps I'm mistaking "great test of golf" for "great golf course"?

[Brett_Morrissy]

I can't believe no one has mentioned this course yet.

Pebble Beach for me - most overrated course for value, biggest let down, herded around like a pack of dogs, marshalls there think everyone has to keep up so you can then wait 15 mins for every shot. 2-3 groups on tees - so much fun
It is like a golf circus.
Soft, spongy, poa greens yuk.

I just couldn't stop thinking - wow this course could have been so good.

interesting ocean holes, but the stuff up around the houses, 10 mins out the gate and they are forgotten.

Will never go back there again. $100 maybe, but not before many others.

[Andrew Calcutt]

Respondents,

I'm not sure who said Pinehurst No. 2 is overrated, but I disagree.  Conditioning has
been its nemisis.  And the price is like paying two hundred
bucks to see the Rolling Stones perform off drugs, or at least good drugs.  
I think the unseen subtleties of No. 2  require very thoughtful and precise iron play.  
I've had great caddies both times I played -- each had caddied for major champions --
and they pointed out many things I  could not see without help.  No. 4 is a close
second, if not its equal.  Underrated.

Who was it that defended Bay Harbor?  That course deserves no defense.  Anything
that Aurthur Hills touches turns to sewage.  That was one of the best pieces of land
for a golf course available in the last 20 years.  I watched the development of that course
from day 1.  I walked the land before it was built at the age of 12.  I knew at the still-stupid
age of 13 that it was a hack job.  No. 1 is a good hole, but it shouldn't be No. 1.  Who
the hell opens a course with a blind tee shot, or at least a resort course.  It slows down
the whole course.  And the Quarry nine is fun, but nothing to make you want to go
out and buy your wife some new lingerie after she lets you skip a "shower" to let you
play.


Andrew

[Dan Herrmann]

Ballyowen

[Adam Clayman]

Who was it that defended Bay Harbor?  That course deserves no defense.  Anything
that Aurthur Hills touches turns to sewage.  That was one of the best pieces of land
for a golf course available in the last 20 years.  I watched the development of that course
from day 1.  I walked the land before it was built at the age of 12.  I knew at the still-stupid
age of 13 that it was a hack job.  No. 1 is a good hole, but it shouldn't be No. 1.  Who
the hell opens a course with a blind tee shot, or at least a resort course.  It slows down
the whole course.  And the Quarry nine is fun, but nothing to make you want to go
out and buy your wife some new lingerie after she lets you skip a "shower" to let you
play.


Andrew

Andrew,
 Those comments about BH jumped off the page at me too.

Tricks is either a friend of someone involved, or has absolutely no critical eye for architecture.

I've forgotten the names of the nines, but, there was a par five on the back nine that had water on three sides of the green. The fairway was built up too high to see this aspect of the hole, and was in my experience, one of the best cases of mal-practice, I've seen ever.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

The two courses that always spring to mind when I am asked this question are Whistling Straits and Peachtree.
I just do not like all the man made stuff at Whistling, and peachtree was just a dissapointment, dont know why, just did not have any wow factor once I got out of the clubhouse..which is really cooool.

[Jerry Kluger]

I would take exception to anyone who says that Bandon Dunes and Bandon Trails are overrated.  The entire Bandon resort would have fallen flat on its face if Bandon Dunes was a dud. I will concede that Pacific Dunes and Old Mac are arguably better but by no means would that lower my opinion of BD.  As far as Bandon Trails the argument would be the same and it is clearly a really good course which is overshadowed by the other Bandon courses but that I think is more a factor of the land that it occupies.  The first person I met when I went to Bandon for the opening of Old Mac told me that the favorite course of his group was BT - another friend who went out there and was not planning on playing BT but did on my suggestion said that he would have made a huge mistake if he hadn't played the course.  I agree that it isn't as good as Sand Hills or Friar's Head but I liked it much more than Colorado Golf.  

Matt: I take it that you geared this thread toward public courses otherwise we could have restarted our blasting Baltusrol lower as the most overrated course in NJ and perhaps the world.  

[Matt_Ward]

Dan H:

How so with Ballyowen ?

Jerry:

The private side can be mentioned ... and yes, I see Baltusrol / Lower as one of the top private overrated layouts. Frankly, I see Maidstone in the same vein -- yes, it has a few holes of note but otherwise lives off the reputation of the nearby layouts.

Just try to remember -- overrated doesn't mean a course isn't good -- it's just not as GOOD as it's claimed to be.

Jerry, I'd like to see more discussion on the public side -- simply because the access dimension allows for more discussion.

[Adam Clayman]

Paa Ko Ridge is way over rated.

Too much shaping of earth that would've been left untouched. Also, the repetitive looks because of that over shaping is my justification.

I can see why others might like it so much, but, for me, it belongs much lower on the GW list.

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