[Patrick_Mucci]

The greens at Seminole are extremely diverse, and offer a world of variety in their surrounds.  When one factors in the element of rather pronounced winds, is there a better set of greensites anywhere ?

Are these Ross's best ?

[Brad Klein]

Not even close.

It helps to have a hill to play off for four of the green sites, and the greens at holes 5,6,13,14,16 and 17 are nicely settled in to raised fillpads. But the putting surfaces themselves are pretty dull at this golf course - or have become that way after years of top-dressing.

Great shape to holes, but I think it's as much the fairway shaping, overall site plan and fairway bunkering as the greensites themselves.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad,

I used to think that, especially each time I played the first hole, but my thinking is changing, even on # 1.

There isn't a flat green on the golf course, they are either crowned, pitched or torqued, offering a challenge to get to the pin, and a challenge to putt.

I'll concede that pronounced contouring is absent, but the contouring and/or slope that exists, together with their pace and the presence of the wind make them more then challenging to putt.

But, there real strength lies in their ability to defend against the incoming shot.

A seemingly simple hole like # 10, downwind, into the wind, or with a cross wind is a treacherous green to hit into, and no pushover to putt, especially if one is above or even with the hole.

Hole #'s 2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18 offer great tactical challenges to incoming shots, and I could easily throw in # 7.

I don't think that Pine Valley, Pebble Beach, Merion, GCGC,
NGLA and other courses offer the degree of tactical challenge presented at Seminole.

The putting surfaces may look dull to the eye of inexperience, but that may be their deceptive nature.  The playing experience of some of the best amateurs and pros in the country would seem to offer hard evidence to the contrary.

As an example, over ten (10) years of "The Coleman" Statistics reveal the 12th hole as the third most difficult hole, despite its relatively short distance, and play from a substantially elevated tee.  That can only translate into one factor, the green and green complex.  # 12 may have one of the best green shapes anywhere, and certainly presents a tactical challenge to the incoming shot, the recovery shot, and putting.
 
Even the bland looking first hole fools many a player with its ability to keep incoming shots at a surprising distance from the cup, despite the relatively short incoming shot.  That crowned green is difficult to gage, and no pushover to putt, especially with the wind UP.

What courses do you think have better green complexes (adjacent contouring, bunkering, etc.,etc) ?

Seminole seems incredibly strong.

[TEPaul]

I think I agree with Brad Klein to a large degree. Seminole has generally very good greens, some really good ones and some do offer a lot of variety in shape, orientation, pitch & slope. Nothing too much as to internal contour, though, certainly not compared to some of NGLA and Pine Valley. There are really no internal contours on Seminole's greens to match Pine Valley's #2, 3, 8, left 9, 15, 16, 17, or NGLA's #1, 3, 6, 11, 12.

If you've played Seminole recently you're probably see the effects of very intense greens because they are incredibly firm right now, consequently hard to play.

The Coleman tournament I posted about once not long ago and simply shows the effects of a really good but relatively subtle golf course when in true tournament set-up--and almost all of that tournament set-up is at the green-end and green related. It's probably a good 3-4 shots harder for a really good amateur on Thursday, Friday and Saturday, somehat so on Sunday and then Monday it's right back to normal. A holes like #2 can be so severe on the Coleman a reasonable strategy if the pin is near the front is to come up a little short of the green. Anything even a few feet above the pin is a much more dangerous place to be.

The really great greens though and why are:

#2--due to the extreme back to front slope
#3--same
#6--great green orientation
#10--good orientation with the pond
#11--back to front slope
#12--extremely interesting shape--real sucker pin locations--particularly a restored one front right!
#13--this one to me is one of the best and most sublime greens in the world!! It sits so beautifully in its site--the bunkering is wonderful, the bunker covering the right and front is at a beautiful inclining diagonal orientation that makes club selection very tricky depending what part of the green you're going for and the green pitch from back right down to front left is awesome. Not overdone here at all just really really great basic architecture. The orientation and diagonal incline and the relative height of this green makes playing to the right side extremely deceptive as to distance and carry!
#14--good back to front slope
#15--left side of green is well bunkered making playing to the left pin tricky sometimes.
#16--interesting orientation and back to front pitch
#17--good bunkering with the greens shape
#18--good back to front slope, and awesome siting with some excellent uphill playability.

[TEPaul]

Oh yeah, Seminole's greens although very good, as for the best in golf---that's a really stretch--not even close actually.

To me the best overall set of greens in golf are Pine Valley's--they have just about everything you can think of--17 1/2 great surfaces--the entire left side of #14 is the only area that's a bit bland in comparison to the rest. The entire right side of #17 is very good though and different. If the pin is either back or front right and your ball happens to be on the right side at the other end from the pin a two putt can be quite tricky.

[Dan Belden]

    I agree with TEPaul.  I love Seminole, but it has nothing on the green complexes at Pine Valley.  
     I love the 13th green at Seminole, and the first time I played the course it was in a storm and I had to hit a Three iron.  I also remember hitting driver,driver on 7, but regardless the greens while sporty and fun, and well placed, don't compare with Pine Valley  
   A good course to compare Seminoles greens with is Indian Creek.                                  
                                                      Dan Belden

[Dunlop_White]

Its difficult to comment when I agree with everyone!

No! The green sites at Seminole are NOT the best in golf!  Their greens possess very little internal contouring, though many greens are significantly graded from back to front in the Ross style. Easy to putt, they are not, especially from above the hole. Add the wind and you will be scratching your head all day. I have made so many more long putts amidst the severe undulations at ANGC or Old Town than I have made simple looking six footers at Seminole. Simply put, the more you play Seminole, the more you will appreciate their greens, and this is a sign of a great golf course. As has been stated, the real challange involves the approaches.

Tee choices are also available on Holes 1, 3, 15, 16 and 18. How much are you going to bite off? Many other holes give you the often more prudent option of clubing down as well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly enough.

I wasn't talking about the internal green contours, I was talking about the shape of the greens, including their tactical defensive merits with respect to incoming shots, and....
their immediate surroundings, and how the two are intertwined to penalize, if not punish errant shots.

If one misses the green at # 5, # 9 or # 16 at NGLA the penalty is minimal.  The same could be said for the 4th,
6th and 18th at Pine Valley, just to name a few holes.

With all greens at the same speed, does Seminole offer a more difficult challenge in getting closer to the pin with incoming shots and recoveries ?

[Mark_Fine]

Pat,
I wonder how many of us have played Seminole enough to make a valid arguement one way or the other?  Maybe one or two have.  

It's hard to argue that Pine Valley's aren't the best but I have to say, Lehigh's can hang with just about any set anywhere.  
Mark

[BillV]

Mark Fine

I've played both Lehigh and Seminole.  Both sets fit their respective sites well.  (Can't ask for more than that.)

Original Questions:

-Hard to beat the Valley.  

-Plainfield's greens are among Ross' very very best.I personally prefer them to Pinehurst #2, not that it matters.

[jim_lewis]

Patrick:

I too am a big fan of the Seminole green complexes, but my vote for the best Ross green complexes I have seen goes to Pinehurst #2 and Wannamoisett.

The best is all of golf?  Royal Melbourne are the best I've seen.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

If you're not talking internal contours at all just the way Seminole's greens are oriented, shaped, sloped whatever, I frankly don't recall them being in the neighborhood of the most tactical greens in the world to approach and recover if they're missed.

It's a great course and some are really good greens but maybe they've done something since I was last there (quite a while ago actually). I know the greens right now are about as firm as anyone has seen anywhere and at something like the Coleman the set-up or "maintenance meld" is really something, very intense but still I sure have seen courses that are generally more difficult in those areas you mentioned.

I sure have played Seminole a ton of times in my life but again not in quite some time. The wind was really the thing and of course if the greens were really rolling you just had to be damn sure not to get above the pin on those holes that are really pitched back to front--but that's Donald Ross and even little old Gulf Stream in Delray is the same way. About the same amount of them are really pitched back to front and if the greens are quick they can be almost as dicey as Seminole.

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