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Kevin Pallier

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WFW vs. WFE
« on: November 04, 2010, 08:02:46 AM »
Are the P3’s at WFE - as a collection - better than those at WFW ?

Which do you prefer ? Why ?

Below is a snapshot of them and if someone can explain how the holes got their names – it would be appreciated as well

Thanks
KP

WFW

#3 Pinnacle = 245yds


#7 Babe-in-the-woods = 162yds


#10 Pulpit = 190yds


#13 White Mule = 214yds


WFE

#3 Cave = 148yds


#6 Trouble = 194yds


#13 Cameo = 146yds


#17 Lightnin = 227yds

« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 08:05:20 AM by Kevin Pallier »

Carl Johnson

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2010, 10:04:48 AM »
WFE ????  WFW ????  For the uninitiated, WTF are the names of these courses?


Lenny Polakoff

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2010, 10:08:37 AM »
Winged Foot West and East

Matt_Ward

Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2010, 12:09:26 PM »
Kevin:

Tough call but the West would be the pick for sheer difficulty -- the East would get a pick for the better combination of holes -- they are more diverse.

The 3rd at WF/W is a brute -- the small green is a dot when played from the tips - the margin of error is so slight. Ditto for the 10th which gets plenty of fanfare - but the 13th is no slouch ether.


Adam Clayman

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2010, 12:31:46 PM »
It is a tough call, but only because the 10th on the west is so good.

I think the East's are prettier.

After the ubiquitous Hanse gets through with them, the East could be the winner.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Carl Johnson

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2010, 01:26:29 PM »
Winged Foot West and East

Thank you Lenny.  Carl
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 04:49:45 PM by Carl Johnson »

V. Kmetz

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2010, 02:11:43 PM »
Kevin:

Boy have you ever created the thread I could talk about all day!  Three years ago I returned to Caddie at Winged Foot, after looping a couple of seasons there as a teenager there in the 80s.

With more than 200 rounds on each over a long period of time - and many playings, i say unequivocally that the One-shot Holes on the EAST are a better collection than those of the WEST.

I'll support that while doing my best to give you the correct information about the nomenclature which you were curious:

WFW#3 - "Pinnacle"
Tillinghast wrote: "The green is terraced, a succession of grades to the pin, with trap to the left and a precipitous incline on the right (VK - there's been a trap there too ever since the course was built but after Tillie wrote this prospectus) and rear. These important characteristics give it the name of 'Pinnacle.'"

VK: a sturdy and frank hole which is made greater by its apt placement in the opening flow of a West round.  At this point in the round you are not yet fatigued by the signature West feature...triangular, pear-shaped greens tilted toward you like a hot slice of pizza dripping off to all sides of your lip.  For center or front pins this hole rarely plays more than 190W and 210B; in the Anderson Tournament i have only experienced it at 227.  If the last two club lengths of the Open Tee is used along with the furthest back pin it was said to play 278, but my laser gun says 268 for any of the back pins I've shot from that spot.  The back right pin is probably hardest for both access and putting and the mid left pin the easiest for both.  Of course, when the greens are at their fastest putts from beyond the pin going back toward the tee are a delicate business.

WFW #7 - Babe in the Woods
Many of the hole names on both WF courses are a literal allusion, be it geographic or something else.  This hole name is probably the best example of that as both its smallest WFW yardage and setting in a forest clearing suggest the nomenclature, although Tillinghast did make one one gender-centric statement, "Somebody spoke of the short seventh as being like a woman, pretty but deceptive." Still, I don't think he meant THAT kind of "Babe."

VK:  Again, this hole's values are enhanced by the apt positioning in the flow of the layout.  It comes at the finale of the the most sustained opportunity stretch you get on the course, where distance isn't that big a factor for most levels...#s 5, 6 and this 7th.  The hole unto itself is not that amazing; it's greatest difficulty is appraising the right club to hit given that it usually plays some 10-20 yards more than your factual measure.  The green is subtle but not stringent for putting; there's no advantage to utilizing curvature and banking on the contours flying the ball there, and though Johnny Miller took 4 to get out of the huge bunker than guards the front right of the complex, it should prompt no worse than a bogey even at mediocre play.  It's pleasing and compels straightforward gauge of accurate distance, but it has no where near the cognitive reverie of the short 13th on the East course, which I hope to explain later is the most-unheralded short 3 in classic architecture.  i will admit that it is eternally hard to convince yourself and/or your player that the shot you say measures 146, must be played with a 6-iron; in that it's a fine short hole.

WFW #10 - "Pulpit"
The literalism works on two levels here.  First there is the obvious geographic vista frame which places you, the player, facing the raised green plaza across a broad meadow - not unlike looking down the aisle of a church, over the audience pews, towards an altar.  But because this is accurately stated as Tillinghast's personal favorite of his one-shotters, the name may also have some oratorical, spiritual lent; as something of an announced aesthetics thesis from Tillie's pulpit.

VK:  It's a superb hole, well-known and exciting to play - not just for the history and the reputation and the clubhouse and flag pole and hogan's 3-iron into some guy's bedroom; those factors are important but it's just a fine hole and feels solvable until you have failed repeatedly.  My one critical note is that the the narrow front tongue of green that juts toward the tee is exceedingly unreasonable to any kind of bogey play that is less than perfect.  I suppose that this little annoyance is better said that there is no way to back off the hole when the pin is there and just play for bogey.  when it's there, you have to be perfect or you're almost always in line for a huge medal number.  That's a little disappointing for an otherwise memorable hole, but whatever...

WFW #13 - "White Mule"
This might have the most charming story behind its name.  All of Winged Foot's 36 greens were shaped by beasts of burden pulling Fresno plow scoops.  When Tillinghast was overseeing construction of this hole, he took notice that the laborer working the green did not have his regular animal with him, instead borrowing his neighborhood's friend white mule.  Tillinghast was said to be amused by the vision of this queer-looking, otherwise beaten thing out there shaping the green and so named the hole.

VK:  The last of the Par 3s on the West, it has at various times been lined with trees and peppered with flanking and cross bunkers.  The current incarnation seems the best - directly the result of the single, most catalytic tree removal program by a major club in stewardship of classic architecture.  *****I think GCAers and afficianados and players all owe a great debt to Winged Foot for blowing out some 2000 trees in the last decade.  Yes, they may have been prompted by Dutch elm Disease in the late 90s, but it took courage to do what the club did when the idea that shut flight corridors and poor turf were an alteration, a perversion of classic architecture was just gaining its acceptance.  WF's reputation and resulting leadership among Golf matters was the big chainsaw that we so desperately -imo - needed.  Many of the classic courses we discussed were also entering this enlightenment, but I think WF was the most aggressive of the daring converts.**** As such, the 13th hole is a superb long par 3, that can be played aggressively with a bogey score still available for inexact execution.  i think the neatest feature of the hole of the green which is a thinner oval pad that twists to the right, interrupted by sublime hummocks and rises.  the hole doesn't require local knowledge to arrive around the green, but we caddies know about some breaks in there that seem to defy Mr Newton and his Principia Mathematica.

I''l male a secondary post on the East sometime later...

cheers

vk


"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Carl Nichols

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2010, 02:17:18 PM »
My two favorites on the property are #10 West and #3 East.  My least favorite is #6 East, and the others on the East aren't clearly better than those on the West, so I vote West.

JMEvensky

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2010, 02:30:33 PM »
VK,thanks for taking the time to write this.I thought it was great.Looking forward to your opinions of the East.

Carl Nichols

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2010, 02:30:58 PM »
VK,thanks for taking the time to write this.I thought it was great.Looking forward to your opinions of the East.

Agreed.  Even if you disagree with me. ;D

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2010, 04:36:01 PM »
WF is full of wonderful examples of what can be done to create fun and demanding on flat property.

Id say 10W, is the best.
17E, is the most creative. i like how it is made almost too difficult simply because it has no bunkers.
6E/13W I could live without
3E/13E are great killer short par-3s

I'd only take the west because of #10. Otherwise I'd rank east 3,13, and 17 ahead of the next west hole. 

Kevin Pallier

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2010, 05:37:35 PM »
Kevin:

WFW #13 - "White Mule"
This might have the most charming story behind its name.  All of Winged Foot's 36 greens were shaped by beasts of burden pulling Fresno plow scoops.  When Tillinghast was overseeing construction of this hole, he took notice that the laborer working the green did not have his regular animal with him, instead borrowing his neighborhood's friend white mule.  Tillinghast was said to be amused by the vision of this queer-looking, otherwise beaten thing out there shaping the green and so named the hole.

VK

Thanks for the fantastic background to each of the P3 holes at WFW.....I look forward to the summary of WFE and in particular the 17th as it is one odd looking hole.

Matt_Ward

Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2010, 06:04:59 PM »
VK:

Great itemization of the West -- although I see the West as the tougher quartet -- the ones on the East a bit more compelling consistency on the architectural side.

The reality is that so few people really have an understanding of the East Course. Placed in plenty of other States in the USA it would be the top course.

Look forward to your take on the East par-3 holes.

V. Kmetz

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2010, 07:01:36 PM »
Part 2 - Winged Foot East

Thank you all for your acknowledgement.

As I consider what i might say of value regarding the East's one-shotters and my opinion of their modest superiority over those of the West, I have to start by crediting many of the principles that - in toto - cause me to also say I think the East is a course I would more often play than the West.

Simply put my opinion is that the East - par 3s and all holes - offers more variety in vista, use of clubs, yardages and types of shots while retaining every bit of the West's resistance to scoring.  I further believe that if the USGA were permitted to artificially doctor the East course as they do every 25-30 years on the West - while I could definitely envision a lower winning score - the differential in the exhibition of player skill to the onlooker would be negligible. If they went really wild and significantly moved back or made new par 4 championship tees of #s 5, 9, 10 and 18 - they might get a score as high to par 70/280 as the West.

As is without such interference, these differences are nil to all but national championship contenders, as we Caddies get to see the East both humble fine national and regional amateurs and reward honest bogey-man routinely at different congregations all season long in all conditions of climate and maintenance.  So i don't digress; the main introductory point is that the East has every bit the medal or match challenge of the West but it does so in a more sublime, less brutal manner.  You always feel like you're refreshing your mental golf screen on the East and that you're playing a drastically different hole than the one before on each tee box.  The only stretch that feels remotely homogeneous is #'s 9, 10 & 11 which are three successive short fours with wicked greens.  I'm straining to even nick it that much.  

One last introductory point I'd like to share is a discovery I've made to refute a long-spun notion that us East-lovers have seemed to repeat regarding the 1929 US Open, the first championship that launched Winged Foot's national reputation.  It has long been insinuated that somehow the first Open was to be held on the East course and that rain storms or some last-minute contingency switched it to the West, and thus the West has had the championship legacy.  my research isn't but 99% through but I can tell you  this is not true - as to a last minute contingency.  I can say this because while WF did get rain on the Friday of the tourney, it had been after a heat wave and the course was dry as a bone.  

I've read the preliminary lead-up stories in contemporaneous journals and none of them cite the East as the venue or infer that it ever was - as a matter of fact there is a wonderful map of Winged Foot West and course descriptions in the June 25-26 1929 editions of the NY Times right before the tournament began.  i have not completed my research to the extent that the change could not have been possibly made at an earlier time in the interim between the 1928 Open and May 1929 before, however the USGA had already taken to announcing the next season's venue at the current season's tourney and there is no mention of the East except for its use as a practice course for the competitors who had just completed big tournaments in the area at the Biltmore and another at...I can't remember.

Whew!


WFE #3 - "Cave"

Tillie wrote, again in some literalism, that it was so-named because it "appears to enter a roofless cavern, a mashie shot, 140 yards away."  The rock formations that frame the sharp slop at the front and right of the green, as well as the large smooth rock formation that box the rear of the complex definitely have something of this effect.

VK Again, one of the enhancing strengths of this hole - like the 3rd on the West - is its seeming "correctness" in this portion of the round.  Its appearance and demands convince you that this course is not the West, it is like an experienced brother.  And continuing with the theme of superiority through variety, you will now play your third different card par within the first the holes. Here the shot is short and slightly downhill and is intended for an aerial play but still cradles and slings a well judged running shot.  The first third of the green is the most dangerous on all the East 3s, and this is your first introduction to that aesthetic.  But one of the charming and stirring functionalities of the hole in contrast to the short 7th on the West is that while every bit as protected, every miss but pin high right has a good chance for recovery...more's to the point, the recoveries are not only solvable but an amusing array of judgement pitches and sand blasts to this little potato chip of a green that is one of the five hardest to read for one-putt in the entire 36.  In short, it's doable and apt hole that offers the thrill to most of a possible 2, satisfaction with any 3 and you won't feel too bad about the 4 you get 6 out of 10 times.  You're rarely discouraged by this hole, it insinuates that good things are within your command.

WFE #6 - "Trouble"

Tillie gave it this name for the threatening circumstances surrounding it, "such as the out-of-bounds situation on-the right, the inviting bunkers and a green that brings out the best, and worst of times and men, especially if you land above the pin."  True dat' and this hole - as some of you might have known - has ironically caused a lot of trouble and headache for WF involving a property dispute with a neighbor whose backyard is in the direct path of the multitudinous every day slice of the 5 irons and hybrids this hole often requires.  Worse, the voluminous Monday outing heathens  ;) often took to retrieving their Pinnacles and Volvik Crystals from that same yard.  there was a rumor his dog died from eating a golf ball.  Even though the homeowner bought into the situation, he got legal traction with the courts because (I have heard) the club had thinned out and removed some trees from the grove of pines that used to border in a straight line down the four adjacent properties including this owner.  Though the effect of dampening slices with the previous growth was negligible (e.g, balls still went there all the time) because the club had "altered what he bought into as neighbor of this property" the club was responsible for damages.  while a settlement was worked out the hole was closed to all play for a significant portion of 2009.  This is what I heard and if true, is a cautionary tale for those of you with similar situations in your own clubs.

VK: This hole is for me is the weakest of eight, otherwise superb Par 3s on the grounds of WF.  I believe this because to me the hole is merely difficult and otherwise plain. And Tillie is right...woe be the men and times above the pin!  But that doesn't change that if I want a score of 3 with a near-guarantee of no worse than 4 on this hole the manner in which to play it is rather uninteresting for Winged Foot standards: Play for 30 yards short of the green with a short iron and either run or pitch a bumbler up short and have a chance at an uphill one putt.  Though the hole regularly measures 160 W 180B and up to 204 tip to tip, it plays a lot longer than those numbers into a swirling wind broken by the hillside it is benched into.  Unless you're a very good player, or playing a casual game it is almost ludicrous to risk the "Trouble" around this green and the recoveries they leave you to a surface where you don't want more than 15 foot putts.  The East has plenty of smooth, blazing slopes but this green could be the fastest from front to back there is on the property.  It's got teeth and there is the amusement of its putts, but you somehow feel a hopeless scramble for par before you tee off. played from the forward markers - like on monday outings - it is a boring mid-iron.

WFE #13 - "Cameo"

The founding members - not Tillie - named this hole with the literal allusion to that of the Cameo Diamond, a gem rising up out of the quiet rolling meadow that is its stirring theater, a location they considered the most beautiful on the course.  they were right because -all apologies to #10 West - this is the diamond standard for this GCA as far Winged Foot and most short par 3's I've ever known.  

VK:  Where do you start; the Redan diagonals presented as 3 D mirrors to that design concept ? The theatrical steeplechase of shooting an attainable short iron from one craggy perch to another across and over a broad sunken lawn?  That's the same set up as 10 West but there your boots are shaking in part because you have a 4 iron or hybrid in your grip. Here, that's usually no more than a 7-iron and often a 9-bat...but you're still shaking...why?  Because you know you just about to have to hit this green or risk as much as 5 the moment you do not.  The members call it the world's easiest/shortest Par 5 and I've seen the most experienced of them, who know it best, get a 6, from on or just off the green.  This is caused by the contour, pitch, orientation and tilt of a green that is akin to playing over and around a Volkswagen Beetle.  The first 30% of this green is the most false of false fronts, a waterfall ramp that leads a ball thrity yards back down toward the tee. The next 30% in the middle shoulders balls off into the first part, thus the only place you can starteigcally be is in the back right of the green (which requires the bravery to hit more club than the pin calls for and chance pulling over dead) or perhaps in the far right side bunker of three fronting traps, where you might hit it out into a two putt position.  
i've may have witnessed or played 400 hundred rounds or more on the East and my best advice is to play for the back right of the green, hope for good fortune in the swirling winds of the meadow amphitheater, and try not to three putt.  no matter how hard you ry to instruct on the putt, no one can believe the speed front to back and how it gathers life, not slows, if it is rolling with more than 1 foot weight.  it's an amazing piece of architecture, well-conceived by the members and executed by Tillinghast.  To my mind there is every bit the drama and all the good GCA principles at work in this model as there are in the other great 3s we know of short or intermediate...7 at Pebble, 12 at Augusta, the 8th postage stamp at Troon, PV's 10th, etc, etc...this is the most unherladed hoel of its type relative to its excellence in both visuals, straegy and challenge of score.  A great match or medal hole under any circumstance and most importantly a pleasure to play and encounter unto itself, though it be a wonderful middle note in an 18 hole round.

WFE #17 - "Lightnin'"

Ironically, Tillie's reason for naming this hole - "because it would take a bolt from Jove to move th ball out of this holes traps" is a feature that has been extinct from the hole since the 1930s when there were indeed massive traps left and right of the,abrupt carbuncle of land that comprises the green; allegedly there was even a cross bunkers to catch tops halfway down the hill.  As it has been long-morphed into the present configuration - a stoic and small plot of land a great, grassy distance away - it stands out as unique among WF holes for its absence of Tillie-faced pits and stellar among them for its lack of need for those hazards to test and challenge the golfer.

VK:  while the members lovingly call the short 13th, the easiest par 5 on the course, you should know they call this the hardest card par on the entire property.  That would be a tough call for me to make, but I do see their point as I've probably seen less than 10 birdies in an aggregate 3000 rounds - it's the rarest card birdie for sure.  The hole is very cunning with its topographical angles as the entirety of the shot seems to list to the right as the ground tumbles gently downhill, camlouflaging judgement of distance and depth perception.  The fact that the hole plays an everyday yardage of 190 W, 210 B and 235 tip to tip brings the longer clubs and their wildness into the hands and this is often compounded by the summer WSW wind quartering from the right.   Yet without the bunkers the hole seems pleasing and fair for all these difficulties - in  this way it is the complete opposite emotional pitch of #6 East, which fee;ls like a bogey though it demands less distance. The target vista on 17 is wide and liberal, framed in the foreground right by two handsome maples and foreground left a unique, craggy osage orange/breadfruit tree. This breeds the more relaxed swing necessary to hit the longer club the distance requires.   As most are likely to not hit this green safely, the only place to miss is right.  you have got to be Lucky or tour to get up and down from anywhere along the left grass valleys, there are no bunkers but its an instance where WF's all-too healthy rough comes into play on a Par 3.  This is all because the green in a massive wave with a bulging left shoulder and list to the rigth worthy of a dragging Quasimodo.  It's unlikely to remain up in the portion of the green without poor luck, but if you are unfortunate enough the putts are blazing from that side to the right where 90% of the pins are placed.  it's a memorable farewell to the East's unique par 3s and a hole every bit as challenging for crack players as middlin bogey man.

Whew!

I may post some kind of summary depending on what if anything has been said in resposne to these two posts but for now I rate the WF par 3s as follows:

1.  13 EAST
2.  10 WEST
3.  17 EAST
4.  13 WEST
5.   3 WEST
6.   3 EAST
7.   7 WEST
8.   6 EAST

If i've made any point in these two blasts of hot air, its probably that I love both these courses and their array of one shot holes, the best collection in a small space anywhere - if we include 9 and 10 at Quaker 600 yards away - it's a no brainer that the border between Mamoroneck and Scarsdale has the goods.

As for East or West what;s better, I've said EAST but you can barely put a scorecard between the difference.

cheers

vk

"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Matt_Ward

Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2010, 08:28:48 PM »
VK:

Appreciate your take but I believe you have been seduced by the charms of the East. The West is the more demanding driving course -- even when discounting the USGA / club additions over the years. Not only is the length present but the turning points but a real premium in shaping shots when called upon -- people usually say it's the demand of the approach shots played at WF that make the differences but failure to get to the right position off the tee sets that in motion. The opening hole on the West is arguably the best starting hole in the metro area.


Paul Carey

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2010, 09:03:07 PM »
Is that a sand bucket for repairing divots on the tee?  If it is I win a bet!

Jim Nugent

Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2010, 09:06:34 PM »
Sorry for the hijack, but the question came to my mind as I was reading the posts in this thread.  Could you put together a composite course at Winged Foot, and if so, what would it be like?  

V. Kmetz

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2010, 09:06:49 PM »
Matt,

I think your right on all counts... I am seduced, torn between two hot girlfriends.  I might be just choosing the East because I know I have to defeat more suitors for the West's garter...

Humor aside i think your remark about "turning points" is spot on and you are also right that the West is the more "demanding driving course" but to that I add..."once you get beyond 6500 yards".  

From short of that, and for the <250 hitter...the courses are equal in driving demands and turning points. The East cannot - right now - be tipped out at beyond 6850 but that's only a 100 yards short of the West's classic 1965-1985 size.  If the club or the USGA added 25 - 50 yards of championship box distance to #'s 5, 9, 10, 16 17 and 18 and got it nearer 7100 yards and that influenced everyday blues to also go backward, well then you would appreciate the driving angles the East offers more.

It doesn't change that you're correct nor is that the West does not offer the superior driving demands...it's just that its closer than you may be inferring and for the world of average driving played from the correct tee, holes such as 2, 5, 8, 9, 11, 12 and 14 are every bit the equal of their staunch West brothers.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2010, 10:02:32 PM »
Not that their membership is that architecturally oriented, but the East gets about 60% of the play between the two courses.
Could this mean that after multiple plays the East proves more fun and satisfying?
It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson

V. Kmetz

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #19 on: November 04, 2010, 10:34:03 PM »
That ratio sounds correct to me, I know the figures for each and the membership without guests - by a nose - likes playing the East better.

This is also because they still have emotional stings from the East being shut for almost a full-season to support the 06 Open and because the East has greater utility for a quick 8 or 10 (not 9) depending on which side of the clubhouse you want to go off and how much exact time you have.

but it's fair to say that its basically evenly divided and you would get 52% for one over the other depending on which year you polled.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

Matt_Ward

Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2010, 11:15:52 AM »
Lynn:

The West is the Darth Vader of courses. People like to be entertained - the West doesn't entertain or handle so-so shotmaking. The driving dimension alone on the West is at least 3-4 gears up beyond the East. That's why you see people fawn over Fenway and even nearby QR because they provide more gentler user-friendly situations for the broader masses.

The West is really no nonsense golf and it takes a first rate long game -- don't have to be Jason Zuback length mind you -- to really have an opportunity to get near the greens.

In my mind, the West is one of the most demanding courses to consistently get the ball near the hole. The pear-shaped greens appear even smaller as the bunkers push hard, high and tight to the edges of the surfaces.

The East is easier in terms of total length -- I do agree with VK that if length were added the East would be even more demanding but why do so -- it provides the perfect counterpoint to the more brawny West.

What makes the West even more special to me is that unlike so many other top tier Westchester layouts (see Sleepy Hollow among them) that have tremendous sites -- the West occupies a very pedestrian piece of land that has such a stellar layout. Doesn't happen often from the courses I have ever played.

Kevin Pallier

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2010, 11:21:33 PM »
VK:

Great itemization of the West -- although I see the West as the tougher quartet -- the ones on the East a bit more compelling consistency on the architectural side.

Matt

So which do you prefer - difficulty or diversity ?

Personally - I felt WFE had probably the better mix though #17 was defended by too much thick grass. I would love to see it shaved back and allow for a variety of options if one misses the green.

WFW (#10 aside) was a little dissapointing in the P3 ranks for mine. With three holes all around the 200yds mark it seemed to lack the variety that could be had with at least one sub 150yd P3 ? #3 was probably the weakest out there - just a long tough P3 thanks primarily to it's yardage.

Adam Clayman

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2010, 11:57:59 PM »


WFE #17 - "Lightnin'"

Ironically, Tillie's reason for naming this hole - "because it would take a bolt from Jove to move th ball out of this holes traps" is a feature that has been extinct from the hole since the 1930s when there were indeed massive traps left and right of the,abrupt carbuncle of land that comprises the green; allegedly there was even a cross bunkers to catch tops halfway down the hill.  As it has been long-morphed into the present configuration - a stoic and small plot of land a great, grassy distance away - it stands out as unique among WF holes for its absence of Tillie-faced pits and stellar among them for its lack of need for those hazards to test and challenge the golfer.

VK:  while the members lovingly call the short 13th, the easiest par 5 on the course, you should know they call this the hardest card par on the entire property.  That would be a tough call for me to make, but I do see their point as I've probably seen less than 10 birdies in an aggregate 3000 rounds - it's the rarest card birdie for sure.  The hole is very cunning with its topographical angles as the entirety of the shot seems to list to the right as the ground tumbles gently downhill, camlouflaging judgement of distance and depth perception.  The fact that the hole plays an everyday yardage of 190 W, 210 B and 235 tip to tip brings the longer clubs and their wildness into the hands and this is often compounded by the summer WSW wind quartering from the right.   Yet without the bunkers the hole seems pleasing and fair for all these difficulties - in  this way it is the complete opposite emotional pitch of #6 East, which fee;ls like a bogey though it demands less distance. The target vista on 17 is wide and liberal, framed in the foreground right by two handsome maples and foreground left a unique, craggy osage orange/breadfruit tree. This breeds the more relaxed swing necessary to hit the longer club the distance requires.   As most are likely to not hit this green safely, the only place to miss is right.  you have got to be Lucky or tour to get up and down from anywhere along the left grass valleys, there are no bunkers but its an instance where WF's all-too healthy rough comes into play on a Par 3.  This is all because the green in a massive wave with a bulging left shoulder and list to the rigth worthy of a dragging Quasimodo.  It's unlikely to remain up in the portion of the green without poor luck, but if you are unfortunate enough the putts are blazing from that side to the right where 90% of the pins are placed.  it's a memorable farewell to the East's unique par 3s and a hole every bit as challenging for crack players as middlin bogey man.



V.- Excellent synopsis.

I recently learned a few things about this penultimate hole. The left bunker, was the biggest on property. Tillie removed it himself. (so to speak)

After watching my host hit putter, from 217, that was airborne, with a slight fade, just far enough to reach the fairway cut. End up within a foot of the front right center of the green, I might agree with you about the only miss being right.

I also learned that my host had never lost a putting challenge on that green, until then.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Kevin Pallier

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Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2010, 04:55:21 AM »
VK

Thanks for the background to all the P3 holes - much appreciated.

I would be interested to hear how you think the P4's and P5's balance out ?

« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 05:03:46 AM by Kevin Pallier »

Matt_Ward

Re: WFW vs. WFE
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2010, 12:21:26 PM »
Kevin:

I like what the East provides -- the diversity makes for a better design appreciation situation. The West is just tough -- very tough. The 3rd is a brute -- the 6th is the only real let-up but the approach must be pinpoint -- the 10th speaks for itself -- and the 13th is often underrated in terms of demands.

The cumulative elements of the East are less rigorous but likely more entertaining for the broader range of players.

Your idea for #17 is a good one !

In regards to the E v W elements on the par-4 front -- the West has the better argument in a range of ways -- just my opinion. On the par-5 front -- I'd give the East the slightest of edges. I personally have never though the 5th on the West was a good hole and the 12 has been utterly bastardized with the inane tee extension.