Contentment in NC?

[Lester George]

John,

I am not sure what you mean.  I try to learn something from every project, but it is generally to satisfy my owner, not to be more acceptable to a particular group.

This particular owner has very distinct philosophies on golf architecture.  He has really allowed us ther freedom of doing what we think fits the goals of investors and meets with the highest value of the property.  He frequently reminds us (the designers) that if people don't like what we are doing (CBM-SR) then they aren't potential members.  It is really refreshing.

Lester

[J Sadowsky]

Oh boy, another tribute course.

Inspiring stuff.

And another national private golf club.  To be honest, given the plethora of good resort options, and the time interests of most people who have the money to afford these luxuries, I don't think I'll ever understand the appeal of these short of literally money being no object.  But I guess that's the point in and of itself.

[JC Jones]

Oh boy, another tribute course.

Inspiring stuff.

And another national private golf club.  To be honest, given the plethora of good resort options, and the time interests of most people who have the money to afford these luxuries, I don't think I'll ever understand the appeal of these short of literally money being no object.  But I guess that's the point in and of itself.

Have you spent time at any of the national, destination clubs?

[Jimmy Muratt]

Lester,

It sounds like an interesting project, especially on this type of property.  How did the name "Contentment" come about?

[J Sadowsky]

Oh boy, another tribute course.

Inspiring stuff.

And another national private golf club.  To be honest, given the plethora of good resort options, and the time interests of most people who have the money to afford these luxuries, I don't think I'll ever understand the appeal of these short of literally money being no object.  But I guess that's the point in and of itself.

Have you spent time at any of the national, destination clubs?

No.  As someone with limited connections and limited time, I've only played two private courses in my life (my father-in-law's course, and I was lucky enough to be invited to a charity scramble at Robert Trent Jones GC here in DC).  And I don't even have kids yet.  I now have a job where I don't work weekends, but even now I am going to a wedding here, a football game there, visiting my in-laws, working on the home, visiting my mother (who is long-term sick), etc.  I maybe get 2 "getaway" weekends a year, and then one or two week-long+ vacations.  The weeklong vacations are with the wife (and generally to some place interesting - for instance, I will be needing golf recommendations in Nha Trang hopefully soon).  The getaways could be to Ballyhack I guess, but it is just as easy to go to Homestead, Greenbriar, or (given my budget and needs) Wintergreen.  

My wife is against me joining a local private club.  I would not even bother bringing up a national one.  As I said, I am clearly not the target audience.  But I do believe I am more and more the profile of the average upscale golfer, and I wonder if these courses can survive without catering solely to what Veblen appropriately calls "the Leisure Class."

PS - If you would like to discuss this further, PM me (or start/continue a seperate thread).  My concerns regarding national golf clubs have nothing to do with Lester's architecture, which from pictures of past work seems to be inspiring.

[Lester George]

Justin,

Despite your description of yourself and your current situation, you may be EXACTLY the candidate for a National Club.  The fees are lower private clubs, the dues are lower than private clubs, and you have limited time to devote to golf.  For what you would spend for one day at one of the resorts you metioned, you and your wife (golfer or not) could spend three days at Ballyhack or Contentment.   Nice short trip, solitude, private golf, local flare, etc.  Maybe you just aren't aware of the price structure, but many of our members are realizing that you can have an "upscale", private, cost effective alternative to the traditional private club at reasonable prices.  You just need to get there.

Lester

[J Sadowsky]

Lester,

If you could PM me with details (particularly regarding Ballyhack, as I live in the DC area), I may consider trying to trek out there and see what it is about (if, of course, I can get such a trial).

[Jud_T]

Lester,

You beat me to it.  This seems like a very intriguing project that should be right up the treehouse's alley....

[Lester George]

Jimmy,

The name Contentment was the the owners choice.  Portions of the site have been in his family's ownership and care for many years.  It is a place that he spent much of his younger years around and is the homestead of his family.  It is a really relaxing place and I think thats why he named it that.

Lester

[Eric Smith]

Oh boy, another tribute course.

Inspiring stuff.

Don,

Perhaps I am reading too much into your post, but will ask you this anyway -- how is this project any different from others before it? Likely, I just made your point, and I understand that.  I would imagine that the development team has to be uber excited to be moving forward with this project, where the process itself, though maybe not inspiring to you, IS inspiring to them and likely a lot of others involved.

Although I have played a lot of golf over 30+ years, I have played just one Raynor or Macdonald course. Surely there will be a great number of folks playing their first Biarritz or Bottle when they tee it at this new club in NC.  Speaking of Bottle holes, I recall Mike posting on his blog during the design of Wolf Point, debating whether or not he was going to design the seventh hole as a Bottle. He didn't end up doing it, but my point is that even there at your place, these tried and true concepts have been in the conversation during the design process.

[Jason Sloan]

Lester,

This sounds like an interesting project with a lot of potential.  Who is the contractor going to be?  It would seem that this type of project would require a contractor who has knowledge and experience renovating existing CBM-SR courses...

[Don_Mahaffey]

Oh boy, another tribute course.

Inspiring stuff.

Don,

Perhaps I am reading too much into your post, but will ask you this anyway -- how is this project any different from others before it? Likely, I just made your point, and I understand that.  I would imagine that the development team has to be uber excited to be moving forward with this project, where the process itself, though maybe not inspiring to you, IS inspiring to them and likely a lot of others involved.

Although I have played a lot of golf over 30+ years, I have played just one Raynor or Macdonald course. Surely there will be a great number of folks playing their first Biarritz or Bottle when they tee it at this new club in NC.  Speaking of Bottle holes, I recall Mike posting on his blog during the design of Wolf Point, debating whether or not he was going to design the seventh hole as a Bottle. He didn't end up doing it, but my point is that even there at your place, these tried and true concepts have been in the conversation during the design process.

Eric, how does it differ, no idea. Guess we’ll see when and if it gets built. However, if the land is as good as Lester says (sounded more like designer sales speak to me) then why feel the need to import holes when the land is good for golf as it is?
Did the bottle hole concept get debated at WP? Not by me. Every time I had the slightest input I was consistent, use restraint and build the best we can in the most practical manner. Practical is not moving earth and wasting resources to create a golf hole that will probably not be any better than what you would have had if you just left the ground alone.   
We built a course for little money because we worked with what we had. We could have built a bottle, redan, dell, and a number of other templates. We chose to build better holes rather than attempt to copy something from the past. Those that have played WP can say whether the course would have better had we played the name game. I will concede that we had the perfect client. Different person and we might have been building amen corner.

[Lester George]

Don,

Because that is what the owner wants. 

Lester

[Eric Smith]

Thank you for that Don. I have a ton of respect for what you, Mike and the crew did/do at WP and I really admire your practical approach to everything. Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

Eric

[Don_Mahaffey]

Lester,
I understand. I wish you luck and hopefully it comes together for you.
Don

[John Kavanaugh]

Lester,

Have you considered hiring George Bahto as a consultant? Is it possible that a template can become to templaty?

[Lester George]

John,

With all do respect, it never crossed my mind. 

Lester

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

With all do respect, it never crossed my mind. 

Lester

Do you own the book George wrote?

[JC Jones]

Lester,

Have you considered hiring George Bahto as a consultant? Is it possible that a template can become to templaty?

Why would he need George when I'm closer, my consulting fees are less and I have Tom Paul on speed dial?

Book schmook, I'm JC Jones.

[JC Jones]

Lester,

Have you considered hiring George Bahto as a consultant? Is it possible that a template can become to templaty?

I'll be curious to see if this question gets any real play considering it was dismissed entirely when discussing Old Mac.

[John Kavanaugh]

Lester,

Have you considered hiring George Bahto as a consultant? Is it possible that a template can become to templaty?

I'll be curious to see if this question gets any real play considering it was dismissed entirely when discussing Old Mac.

JC,

The fact that George Bahto was part of the design of Old Mac was discussed extensively.  My other question about templates becoming templaty would have nothing to do with Old Mac because it was meant to imply that Lester's course may become a template of Old Mac if he is not careful.

[Don_Mahaffey]

...imply that Lester's course may become a template of Old Mac if he is not careful.

isn't that the whole idea?

[Eric Smith]

If I were Lester I wouldn't worry about that, John. I don't recall any threads on here where folks were claiming that Old Mac was ripping off Black Creek.

[JC Jones]

Lester,

Have you considered hiring George Bahto as a consultant? Is it possible that a template can become to templaty?

I'll be curious to see if this question gets any real play considering it was dismissed entirely when discussing Old Mac.

JC,

The fact that George Bahto was part of the design of Old Mac was discussed extensively.  My other question about templates becoming templaty would have nothing to do with Old Mac because it was meant to imply that Lester's course may become a template of Old Mac if he is not careful.

My question was towards your "template" question.  Following your questions, isn't then Old Mac a template of Silva's Black Creek?  How do we determine if one is a template of another?  Chronological order?

[JC Jones]

If I were Lester I wouldn't worry about that, John. I don't recall any threads on here where folks were claiming that Old Mac was ripping off Black Creek.

Great minds, Eric.  Great minds.