[Mike_Clayton]

I was playing in Barcelona last week with Domingo Hospital, a terrific Spanish pro who won the European Senior Tour event a fortnight ago in Sicily and Peter Fowler who won, with Wayne Grady, the World Cup in Spain in 1989.
Domingo has a cupboard full of old - but still new and in the boxes - Titleist golf balls and we played quite a lot of shots and holes with the Pro Traj 90 ball which was a ball of the early 1980s.
It felt unbeleivably soft - it was hard to imagine that was how they really felt - and our asumption was that they would fly considerably shorter.
To our surprise they flew only a little less - Peter is longer than us by a bit and he could still hit it 275 yards and within 5 or 10 yards of the Pro V1.

Which gets me to the point.

The balls looked smaller to me and on a blind test I could pick the old ball every time.
We took it to the Cleveland van at the tournament this week and measured them with a grip measuring gague that was extremely precise.
There was no doubt the old ball was smaller.
Does anyone have an answer or an explination?
Either they have shrunk - and they have all shrunk the exact same amount - or the new balls are bigger that 1.68.

[Adam Clayman]

Mike. Was there a noticable difference in the Carry distance ?  As an side I always thought balls have a shelf life. Your description would seem to disprove that. Other than the possible shrinkage. Great find BTW. 

[Thomas McQuillan]

golf balls used to be 1.62  before being switched to the bigger size. not sure what year but it had to be way before 1980

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
It probably shrunk with age, the ball was 1.68" when made, with a low spin rate under 2,900 RPM.

[astavrides]

The R&A ball was smaller than the American ball up until a certain year.

[Jim Franklin]

Didn't the ball size used to be 1.62 for the R&A and 1.68 for the USGA? I do not know when it changed, but I do not think the balls shrunk to the exact same size as each other. My guess it is Titleist's R&A version of the US ball.

A friend of mine had a box of balatas from way back and we used them at Pine Valley for a round. Besides tearing them up with our wedges, I really did not notice a huge distance discrepancy. So much for that shelf life theory.

[Jim_Kennedy]

It's probably the small ball, they were OK under R&A rules until 1990 for all events except the Open.
The 1.68 ball was mandatory in the Open after 1974, and everywhere in the US around 1970?  

[Niall C]

It's probably the small ball, they were OK under R&A rules until 1990 for all events except the Open.
The 1.68 ball was mandatory in the Open after 1974, and everywhere in the US around 1970?  

Jim

Are you quoting the facts from somewhere ? I really don't know the definitive answer but I would have thought the R&A would have made the change across the board, which is what I thought they did, and way before 1990. I can vaguely remember when it happened and I would have guessed early 80's.

Niall

[Jim_Kennedy]

Niall,
I wouldn't be making it up as I went along. 

[Niall C]

Silly me for even doubting you.

Cheers

Niall

[Carl Rogers]

With the small ball size, circa the 1985 Balata velocity & spin rate spec, become an acceptable 'Tournament Ball'?

[Jim_Kennedy]

For you Niall,

http://www.ruleshistory.com/clubs.html
http://library.thinkquest.org/10556/english/high/history/hist05.html
______________________________________________________________________________________________
For you Carl,

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4858923.html

[Mike_Clayton]

They were not small 1.62 balls.I grew up playing that ball and it was really small in comparison.
There were balls we played on tour in the early 80s and were made in America.
It seems they may have 'shrunk' but it is odd they have all shrunk by the same amount.
What was amazing to me was how little difference there was in the carry. I am taking a dozen back to Australia next week and I will play with Geoff Ogilvy with woods as well as the new drivers. It should be interesting.

[Pat Burke]

I had the exact experience with Maxfli HT's.
A student's mom had a never opened bax, and I played two holes (not exactly scientific), with my ProV1 and the HT.
Hit them virtually the same distance with driver, and with a middle iron on second hole (par 5)
I was shocked!

[Mike_Clayton]

Pat,

So is the ball the problem we think it is - or is it the club? Or the combination of the two.

[Marty Bonnar]

For the truly Nerdy (and which GCAer isn't???):

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4858923.html

Woohoo! An entire website of lawyer-speak. Be still, my Shivasian heart.

FBD.

[Matthew Mollica]

Clayts,  Did you take a current ProV1 to measure with the gauge at the same time?

Also - I'll dig out some Tour Prestige and some old ProV1 diamonds for you to trial with Geoff.
I think I may even have a sleeve of never hit Tour Professional 90s.

MM

[JR Potts]

Yes, in my experience, older balatas and newer Prov's don't have that being of a yardage discrepancy but for those occassions where (with high swing speeds) you really rip one.  The new ProVs, if you catch them right trampoline and extra 20-40 yards.

That's where the big difference is in my opinion.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ryan,

I read the spin rates, carry and overall distance on the ball described in the patent that I posted. That ball, with various configurations of core size/cover material, seems like it would perform very nearly like a PROV1. Use a modern driver at modern swing speeds and  the difference wouldn't be much, a few yards.

Mike
I say it's the modern driver coupled with extrememly fast clubhead speed that's the major culprit. The ball was 'hot' in the 70s and once it was linked to a softer cover, akaPROV!, the best players showed what could be done with it. 

[Gary Slatter]

the great Moe Norman played Titleist all his career, and carried a metal  1.68ball ring in his pocket until the late 80s.  Some balls fit through easily, they were the keepers.  I recall we once tried a dozen Maxfli balls and none fit through!

[David Royer]

Never overlook the obvious, it could simply be shrinkage (e.g. Seinfeld).

[Tim Martin]

Never overlook the obvious, it could simply be shrinkage (e.g. Seinfeld).

David-If George couldn`t sell shrinkage how can you?

[Pat Burke]

Mike,
In my unscientific opinion, not the ball.
I believe it is in the knowledge and fitting of things.  I launch the ball MUCh higher than when I played,
and hit that Maxfli further than I did when I wasn't fat and actually practiced.

My old Cleveland irons really do not carry much different, but my new Callaway Tour forged are about 4-5 yards longer
with PRO V1.  With a NXT for instance, I carry that a bit further with my irons (2-5 yards than a ProV1), but have seen little
difference in carry with driver.

I do believe faster speeds get a better distance benefit with the ProV1x, but see a lot more distance control issues with the lower spinning balls for really good students.  Not as much experience with the Taylor, Callaway balls.  About the same with Bridgestones as the Titleists.

[Jason Topp]

Pat,

So is the ball the problem we think it is - or is it the club? Or the combination of the two.

I read an article about some pros hitting combinations of persimmon drivers/ current v. old Ball and modern drivers with the current v. old ball.  As I recall there were differences related to the ball but the biggest difference was an increased swing speed of 7-8 mph with the longer lighter graphite shafts.  Assuming 2.5 yards of driving distance per mph of clubhead speed (which is a decent approximation) that equates to 18-20 yards.  Thus the answer to your question is that the club accounts for more of the increased distance (around 25-30 yards) than changes to the ball.

To me the question is not what caused the change in driving distance.  The better question is what would be the easiest way to dial back distance.  Reducing the distance the ball travels is a much cheaper and more practical solution than dialing back clubs.

[Mike_Clayton]

Matt

We measured them side by side.
Any old balls you have would be useful so we can compare with the Pro Traj.
When we played a few years ago with wooden drivers and the modern ball there wasn't that much differance either in the distance - if you hot it in the midddle and that is much more difficult with a persimmon driver.

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