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Jerry Kluger

I was reading the thread on Arthur Hills and it got me thinking about restorations versus renovations.  I have always felt that restorations were a good idea because the original architect had specific thoughts with respect to how the greens, bunkers, etc., should interact and are the best way to approach golf course projects.  On the other hand, most renovations don't work as well because the architect is trying to put his style and thoughts on someone else's design.  Arthur Hills has often done this and the result is a great deal of similarity among courses which were originally designed by other architects.  There are exceptions to this such as Richard Mandell's work at Army Navy in Virginia where interestingly they restored the greens but they renovated the bunkers and redesigned some of the holes. 

Joel_Stewart

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2010, 02:33:43 PM »
There is no right or wrong and no answer fits every course regarding restoration or renovation.

I previously belonged to a 1927 course that cried out for a restoration yet the superintendent renovated it.  Now I play at a 1930's course that needs to be torn up and completely renovated.

I think it was Tom Doak that said most classic courses are not worth restoring.

JNC Lyon

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2010, 06:43:31 PM »
Whenever I hear "renovation" rather than "restoration," I am always a bit wary.  Restoration implies that the changes are keeping the origins and history of the course in mind.  With renovation, there is always the fear that the architect will try to turn an existing classic layout into his own modern masterpiece (read: disaster).

I would lean towards a restoration, though I realize that a full, pure restoration is not always possible, warranted, or desired.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Tommy Williamsen

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2010, 11:53:09 PM »
Some courses need a complete redo.  Some may not need it but are helped by a renovation.  Monterey Peninsula is an example of a course that didn't necessarily need renovating but certainly got better because of it.  Some courses just need a few holes to be redesigned. 

Restoration has to be difficult.  Raleigh CC in NC is an example of restoration that rocks. It is an old Donald Ross (actually his last-he died during construction).  Rich Mandell did an extraordinary job.  It has the feel of DR.  I think a complete redo would have been a mistake.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Peter Pallotta

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2010, 12:25:28 AM »
I don't know, Jerry. But if we took the top 20 classic (pre 1950) American courses, how many of them have been renovated over the years and how many restored? And of those restorations, how many were actually restorations of previous renovations? And the same question applies to the top 20 classic British courses - have any of them been restored over the many many decades of the existence? 

Tom_Doak

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2010, 09:38:36 AM »
Good questions all, Peter.  But at the end of the day the answer to the question depends entirely on what you would be starting with.

If you are starting with a truly great course, what are the odds that the new architect is going to devise better solutions than the original designer.  And if he does, what are the odds that he will be able to make his work blend in seamlessly with the rest?  If he fails on either count it is a step backwards, and it is a crime for great courses to go backwards.

On the other hand the idea that there are hundreds of old courses worth careful restoration is silly.  Many restoration projects are actually renovation projects that are being sold under a more appealing label, so that club members will not question the designer's ideas and credentials as I did in the paragraph above.

At the end of the day you started with 18 holes and you wind up with 18, so whichever way you go, there had better be some dramatic improvement to justify the expense incurred.  And that, incidentally, is another part of the racket ... the idea being sold out there that it's normal for clubs to require a $ 2 million renovation every 10-20 years to replace all the bunker sand and rebuild USGA greens.  Don't get me started on that one!

Jerry Kluger

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2010, 11:48:38 AM »
There are so many factors which would weigh in the decision of which is better for the particular course but very often appearance plays too much of a role.  The difficult question facing those making the decision is whether the original design warrants restoration or should the routing be retained but the features changed. If you change the greens and the bunkers what works best with the surroundings.  Many courses were built in a time when a certain design was being used for bunkers or greens and the architect did not want to rock the boat but now we have the knowledge and ability to go beyond that template.  But even today some architects doing restoration work today tend to repeat themselves in their renovations causing many courses to look and play the same. 

In the end the question is whether the work done really made the course better. The course can be better simply because it drains better or takes far less time and money to maintain which are probably the best reasons for doing work in this economy.

Tom MacWood

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2010, 02:31:55 PM »
There is a third option which may be preferable to other two depending upon the golf course - preservation. Unfortunately today IMO there are too many renovations that bill themselves as restoration, and in some of those case preservation would be my preference.

Mike Cirba

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2010, 02:39:34 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I agree with the thrust of your post about clear renovations masquerading as restorations, but what do you do with a course where preservation hasn't taken place over the decades?

It seems to me that you're then left with the either/or choice as described in Jerry's question, because you have some "undoing" to do if you want to either rollback unwise changes, or recapture (recreate) features that have been lost to time.

Jerry Kluger

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2010, 02:47:47 PM »
Perhaps part of the problem is how some this work is undertaken.  You look at a course today and think that is the way it always looked but that is usually not the case.  We all recognize the disaster of a few decades back when pine trees were planted because they were cheap and they created separation of holes.  Shouldn't a course first clear away those trees and open up the playing corridors to see what needs to be done.  I know at my club we have taken down some pine trees around greens and it has made a world of difference in the health of the greens as well as their appearance.  I know members of my club who want to relocate tee boxes because of trees which have grown  into the playing corridor - they would never think of taking the trees down and leave the tee boxes.  It should make this process a bit simpler today with the photography programs which can show what the hole would look like without all the trees.

Tom_Doak

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2010, 04:56:30 PM »
Perhaps part of the problem is how some this work is undertaken.  You look at a course today and think that is the way it always looked but that is usually not the case.  We all recognize the disaster of a few decades back when pine trees were planted because they were cheap and they created separation of holes.  Shouldn't a course first clear away those trees and open up the playing corridors to see what needs to be done.

Jerry,

I agree totally with this.  For many of the clubs where we consult, we h ave suggested that the first order of business is to do the low cost, non invasive work ... cutting back tree encroachment and getting the mowing lines right on the fairways and around the greens.  For many old courses those simple things can make a big difference.  After that, it's easier to see what is there and look at tee work or bunkering work.  However, as I mentioned in my previous post, sometimes it is hard to get a club to start slowly, and they are contacting architects because someone has already convinced them that the greens or bunkers all HAVE to be rebuilt pronto.

Jaeger Kovich

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2010, 05:47:06 PM »
So the contractors/shapers are taking jobs from the architects, and the greenskeeper is taking jobs from the contractors... Guess I'm going to have to be the grand emperor of my golf course, otherwise it will never be built! ;D

Another way I've seen various golf courses save money during renovations is by installing irrigation themselves with us digging it for them, or at least doing the wiring themselves. Its really a function of what kind of equipment they already have on site.

Tom_Doak

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2010, 08:13:32 PM »
So the contractors/shapers are taking jobs from the architects, and the greenskeeper is taking jobs from the contractors... Guess I'm going to have to be the grand emperor of my golf course, otherwise it will never be built! ;D

Another way I've seen various golf courses save money during renovations is by installing irrigation themselves with us digging it for them, or at least doing the wiring themselves. Its really a function of what kind of equipment they already have on site.

Jaeger,

A couple of our former interns have become the Jack of all trades at good clubs that are pursuing renovations one piece at a time;they do work to the course when they can and are free to take on outside work when it's available to them.  I think that seems like a great business model for staying afloat the next 5 years if you don't want to go overseas.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2010, 09:14:16 PM »
Jerry,

Doesn't it depend upon the outcome ? ;D

Tom MacWood

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2010, 10:33:14 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I agree with the thrust of your post about clear renovations masquerading as restorations, but what do you do with a course where preservation hasn't taken place over the decades?

It seems to me that you're then left with the either/or choice as described in Jerry's question, because you have some "undoing" to do if you want to either rollback unwise changes, or recapture (recreate) features that have been lost to time.

It depends on the course, if it is a significant design I'd prefer waiting or a slow in-house restorations to hiring a big name restoration specialist. I think there have been, and could be, some very good restorations, but I think the main ingredient is an architect with little or no ego. They are hard to find.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2010, 10:41:47 PM »
Tom MacWood,

I agree with the thrust of your post about clear renovations masquerading as restorations, but what do you do with a course where preservation hasn't taken place over the decades?

It seems to me that you're then left with the either/or choice as described in Jerry's question, because you have some "undoing" to do if you want to either rollback unwise changes, or recapture (recreate) features that have been lost to time.

It depends on the course, if it is a significant design I'd prefer waiting or a slow in-house restorations to hiring a big name restoration specialist. I think there have been, and could be, some very good restorations, but I think the main ingredient is an architect with little or no ego. They are hard to find.


Tom MacWood,

How do you think all of these courses got disfigured in the first place ?

Most likely by in house renovations where the parties involved didn't have a clue.

Who decides ?

The club Pres, The Board, the Green Chair, The committee ?

It's a very risky proposition.

And, where does it stop ?

Once one faction knows they can alter the course, what's to stop the next faction from repeating the process, over and over again, until the course no longer resembles its original design, and loses its distinctive flavor.

It's not as easy as some might think, that's why I generally favor leaving the course alone

TEPaul

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2010, 10:58:59 PM »
I don't believe anyone could find a single example of an architectural restoration (other than significant destruction due to the elements) of a golf course more than about twenty five years ago. Before that I don't think the idea even existed with golf course architecture.

Mike_Young

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2010, 11:05:46 PM »
When a renovation is disguised to a membership as a restoration then it becomes a travesty.  It is amazing how much work becomes necessary on some of these projects once there is no new construction....and it is amazing what can be sold to a membership....most think a masterplan is one big sheet of paper ....IMHO in most cases renovations would make many of the older courses a better product but this new found product being produced out there where they get stuck" in the middle" is junk....selling a restoration of the "original drawings" is not good...and is not a restoration....in most cases, on most courses( and I say most ;)) the course would benefit from adjusting some holes...moving some green sites and reworking bunkers, especially when you consider that golf was always approached from the front of the green in the old days and today we approach it mostly from the side via cartpath ...so a long bunker on each side of a green can become a big ingress egress problem.........but the most dangerous  thing I have seen regarding the restoration/renovation scene is actual time and consideration a membership gives it...sure they will say they gave it a few years but that few years was probably 7 or 8 one hour meetings with not much thought in between other than telling their buddies they were doing a redo....most memberships don't know what they got when all is done...they just feel if they spent enough money and did it as a big project it had to be much better....
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 07:26:24 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Forrest Richardson

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2010, 11:39:06 PM »
Tom D. makes a good point; "If you are starting with a truly great course, what are the odds that the new architect is going to devise better solutions than the original designer?"  

Well, that certainly requires ascertainment as to "great" and it definitely involves "odds".

I have written that there are always (underscore always) ways to improve any golf hole or course. It just takes a willing architect and a willing client. To say that any golf hole is ideal is nonsense. This, of course, does not mean that some are sacred — for we all now there are sacred holes and courses. But, even those could be improved and it is my humble opinion that the first in line may be the original designer or his peers.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 11:41:09 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Stuart Hallett

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2010, 03:15:47 AM »
Renovation or restoration, it will nearly always be a mix of both. Even the dead guys got the odd bunker wrong, or failed to move storm water correctly. IMO, this is often the turning point from restoration to renovation, not to mention the lack of teeing space.
I agree with the previous comments, & in particular Tom Macwood who underlined a the problem of GCA's with rather big ego's. Efforts must be made to keep your ego in the pocket when working on decent classic courses.
I also agree with Tom D, it's good business to take things slowly year after year, bunker after bunker & tee after tee etc.. & more reasonable on club finances. We have time to think carefully, adjust if necessary & give attention to details. However, you must be prepared to walk away with little praise and smaller checks. Members sometimes don't even notice works, that suits me fine ! 


Ken Kearney

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2010, 06:11:08 AM »
I believe that the best "restoration" work is a combination of both.. but..
The real issue here is the starting point ... the work very often comes about for the wrong reasons... "the neighbouring club just got some real fancy bunker remodel works done... we need to do ours.."
Do they really have the integrity to follow the style and strategies of the original architect??? and when the style or original stratgies are detailed to the club, the club actually end up saying .."thanks a lot" .. and doing dsomething completely different... uasually at huge costs and with little if any regard to the origial architect(s).
If the club was really interested in "restoration" and following the "dead guys", they would get an infinitley better job and for lesser costs... and the job would "stand the test of time"...

KK
KK.

BCrosby

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2010, 08:27:11 AM »
"I have written that there are always (underscore always) ways to improve any golf hole or course. It just takes a willing architect and a willing client. To say that any golf hole is ideal is nonsense."

There are a couple of problems with this. They begin with Philosophy 101 mistakes.

No golf hole is ideal. That is undeniable.

But it does not follow that it "just takes a willing architect and a willing client" to make the hole better.

Going on here is either an error of logic. From the general proposition that "any hole can be improved" it does not follow that it is clear how, specifically, that might be done. Or maybe what is going on here is just plain old hubris.

Bob

« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 08:31:48 AM by BCrosby »

Jeff_Brauer

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2010, 09:12:37 AM »
To be honest, a designers creed may be different than a doctors creed of "do no harm" because in gca, "do no harm" is more in the eye of the beholder.

If we use the scientific process/design process of identifying a problem (if it exists) and proposing solution(s) that solves most or all of the problems noted, and picking the one that seems to solve them best, then we are doing our job, regardless of if its a restoration, renovation, or sympathetic renovation.  

As TD notes suggests, it is often best to go in with a mindset to make the least amount of change possible, and this kind of design process idea should ideally lead to the most minimal changes possible.  In other words, look at every feature and if there is no problem, don't try to solve it.

And, in truth, I have found the problem based scenario the easiest to sell at most courses, although a few have ID'd their problem as a need for a signifigant new look to attract business, which then leads to a total blow out.  Or a general need to improve the infrastructure to improve maintenance to 21st century standards. (i.e. improved drainage, irrigation, greens construction, bunker liners)

There are always some interesting problems that may change the original architects intent and affect what we do.  Usually, its the addition of trees and cart paths that cause shade and circulation problems that are simply different than when they designed the coruse originally.  Of course, in other cases, its turf types, green speeds, increased play (requiring bigger tees) additions (perhaps the practice range originally left out, or a road realignment, etc.)  And most often these days - desire for better bunker conditions, leading to the question of "Is it better NOW to have flash bunkers, or flat bunkers that won't wash, regardless of former style?

Besides all of that, most clubs that have survived have looked forward to future members, and not back.  Surely, sometimes, the history plays into their attractiveness in the market place to new and existing members.  In other cases, the clubs are just as proud of their tradition of modernizing and setting new standards of maintenance, facilities etc. for their current dues paying members.   So, within the narrow prism of gca.com, not all are of the same ilk, and there is a lot to be said at most clubs for "improving it" in the name of changing it up to a new look, just as sometimes its nice to paint the living room and change the furniture.  Short version:  Not every club is classic of golf course design that cannot be improved, but those are the ones we focus on. 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 09:19:17 AM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom MacWood

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2010, 09:51:15 AM »

Tom MacWood,

How do you think all of these courses got disfigured in the first place ?

Most likely by in house renovations where the parties involved didn't have a clue.

Who decides ?

The club Pres, The Board, the Green Chair, The committee ?

It's a very risky proposition.

And, where does it stop ?

Once one faction knows they can alter the course, what's to stop the next faction from repeating the process, over and over again, until the course no longer resembles its original design, and loses its distinctive flavor.

It's not as easy as some might think, that's why I generally favor leaving the course alone[/color]

My main focus is on significant designs. No doubt there have been some in-house changes to significant designs, but I'd say generally the nature of those changes have been more of the dumbing down type or cosmetic type. I don't think it would be too difficult for a club in that situation to remove trees, expand fairways and greens and restore bunkers where there is clear physical evidence of their former existence. Other significant designs have been redesigned by architects and they require more drastic changes to bring them back to where they were. That is where I see the most potential for good and bad. The bad being there are too many restoration specialists (not all of them) that are not actually restoring, but redesigning in the name of restoration. The Ross-ification of Donald Ross courses is a prime example. When a prototypical Ross style is introduced to a course that never had a prototypical Ross style (because we know Ross went through numerous styles over his long career) that is redesign in my opinion.

Golf architecture could learn a lot from architecture when it comes to restoration, preservation and protection of important designs.

Jeff_Brauer

Re: Renovation versus Restoration - Is one better than the other?
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2010, 11:29:48 AM »
Tom MacWood,

We discussed this years ago, as I recall, but one of the gca/buildings differences is that you can take a 100 year old village train depot and turn it into a beauty salon, village tourist info center, and the like.  You are only really preserving the facade.

By definition, a "restored" golf course is still serving its same basic funtion today.  The theoretical question is whether Golf Circa 2010 vs Golf Circa 1930 is as different as possible building uses are?  Pro V, drivers, 13 stimp on the greens, etc.  Do these warrant restoring the course to 1930 or "adaptive re-use" by flattening, etc?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

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