Arthur Hills courses

[John Foley]

Newport National - Newport RI

Very very good green sites, cool routing & some very strong par 3's

[Dale_McCallon]

Off the top of my head, I can think of two Hills courses I've played.

El Conqistador in Puerto Rico really was a dud..but then again the terrain is so severe there I don't really think anything should have bee built there.  About the only thing I remember besides the extreme elevation changes are the the iguanas that basically lived a quite idyllic life in the bunkers or tanning on the greens.  Interesting hazards to have to putt around.

But Olde Stone in KY is a solid course.  Some really nice short par 4s and a really cool par 3 with a huge kick plate to play over.  I'm sure Mayhugh has some photos.

[Alex Miller]

I've played a couple Art Hills courses, off the top of my head Black Gold and Journey at Pechanga.

His courses can be a lot of fun and there were good holes within both, however there were also shockingly bad golf holes too. At least for these two courses however he tackled some terrain that most architects would likely pass on, and made decent golf courses from where there easily could not be one. This would be fine to me if they weren't so overpriced, but that's not his fault because if the average Joe is willing to pay that and enjoy his round.

So I think Arthur Hills is successful, but not particularly good.

[Andy Troeger]

 

Personally, I like some of his work as well...not top 10 stuff, but enjoyable.  I worked at an Art Hills course in Indy (Hawthorns) for a few years.  It had some bland holes, but also some very good ones including some solid short par 4's and a nice 5, 3, 4 finishing stretch.  

Brian,
Interesting comment about Hawthorns. I only played it once but thought it was one of the worst courses I had ever seen and that the finishing stretch had two awful holes. I missed my drive a little left on #16 only to find there was a blind pond over there and then #18 was rather strange too...I don't remember much about it. Didn't help that it was a housing course. I couldn't imagine spending money to play it especially given some great affordable public courses in the area. You couldn't have paid me to try it again!

I do think Hills has done some decent stuff. Of the nine or so courses I've played, a few are decent. I am one that actually likes Longaberger and think that Ironbridge and Glacier in Colorado are both fun, although perhaps not architectural masterpieces!

[JLahrman]

So what is your take on this hole?  

Unintentionally duck-hooked drive led to a 7-iron approach and a 2-putt birdie.  But nothing was as absurd as that weed field on the ninth hole.

However, before the piling-on gets too thick, I will repeat that I do like Weatherwax quite a bit.  Biggest problems there are that the course gets too much water, two par-5s (4 on Meadows, 4 on Woodside) have patches in front of the green that need to be cut, and a couple of holes (7 on Highlands, 9 on Woodside) would be immensely better if a bunch of trees are removed.  None of that has anything to do with the architecture though.

[Mike McGuire]

Washington County (30 minutes north of Milwaukee) is a good test. Treeless, on a high rolling site with some long views of the countryside, the front is a clockwise loop around the perimeter of the property and the back works clockwise around the inside.

Worth a play if your in the area playing Erin Hills or West Bend CC

[Eric Smith]

Adam,

I forgot about The Dunes @ Seville. I thought the GCA there was very good. I'd play there again in a heart beat if going back to the Tampa area. That course owes me.  I couldn't keep it out of the sand the day we played it in the Dixie Cup!

Rich,

If you are thinking of going down to Hilton Head, play both the PD course and the one at P Hall.  I think you'll enjoy them both.  Get in touch with me and I'll try to meet you down there this winter.  Joel Zuckerman and I are just beginning to plan a GCA Lowcountry get together around the first week of January. Not sure how many we can take, but for now, we've got plenty of room for more -- so stay tuned.

[Kirk Gill]

I've only played a couple of his courses - one is the aforementioned Legacy Ridge. I sure liked that course a lot better before all the houses were built - but that's not the course's fault. Not too memorable a course to me, although the 13th is a fun hole, if memory serves, a downhill par four with a tree that is rather inconvenient off the tee.

I do, however, remember Walking Stick in Pueblo, Colorado. A fun course that contains some really lovely arroyos that the holes hug and wind around and over. The arroyos are used well, and while the greens aren't too exciting, getting there is a load of fun. But beware the walking stick cactus itself. It's a mutha.

On the basis of those courses I wouldn't want to make a case for Hills as a great designer, but Walking Stick especially is a lot of fun, not especially difficult, and a nice looking course.

Wow, is that praise or an indictment? I guess that depends on the golfer.

[Mike Nuzzo]

I think it is unfair to judge him against other big name GCA's since he is not securing the best land, with high rollers paying him a huge design fee and free artistic reign, but I could be wrong.

I'm calling you out Richard.
How about comparing his firm to a small duo working with a local town and a little more than $1MM with housing plans?
How about to a first time solo design on a flat cattle ranch with a superintendent and a small untrained crew?

How does the firms work compare then?

[Michael Whitaker]

His re-do of the former member's re-do of his Dunes at Seville is actually quite challenging. Not bad at all really.

This course was the surprise hit of the Dixie Cup two years ago. Lots of really good holes.  

[Tommy Williamsen]

Hills did the renovation on my home course, Bethesda Country Club, in the early 90's, before I was a member and before I had ever seen the course.  The work was well-received by the membership, and I assume was perceived as well done by members of other clubs in Montgomery County because since then Hills has done renovations at Burning Tree, Chevy Chase, Congressional (Gold), Woodmont, and Manor.  He has also done renovations at Fairfax and Belle Haven.  I assume that if people at these clubs were complaining about his work, he wouldn't keep getting retained by other similarly situated clubs. 

I haven't played many of his original designs, but I am generally not a fan. 

I have played all of the above courses and felt AH did a fine job on all of them.  I think some of his best work is renovating/remodeling. 
As for his original work I think Thorobred in MI and Lakeside at the GC of Georgia are two of his best.

[Michael Whitaker]

His re-do of the former member's re-do of his Dunes at Seville is actually quite challenging. Not bad at all really.

This course was the surprise hit of the Dixie Cup two years ago. Lots of really good holes.  

Here is a link to some pictures of the Dunes course from the 2008 Dixie Cup:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,38198.0/

[Richard Hetzel]

I think it is unfair to judge him against other big name GCA's since he is not securing the best land, with high rollers paying him a huge design fee and free artistic reign, but I could be wrong.

I'm calling you out Richard.
How about comparing his firm to a small duo working with a local town and a little more than $1MM with housing plans?
How about to a first time solo design on a flat cattle ranch with a superintendent and a small untrained crew?

How does the firms work compare then?

Mike,

I see your point here. However, I guess Art has a lot more golf courses in his portfolio than many small teams all added together.  Maybe being so established in his own niche places him (whether he wants to be or not) up with the Jones' (no pun intended).

I used to be a lot more critical of ALL GCA's, UNTIL, I went to Lost Dunes this past May and listened to Mr. Doak talk about designing Lost Dunes CC. In the past I had never taken into consideration all of the constraints (seen and unseen), roadblocks and unintended design changes that made the designing aspect change for the better or worse....Now I try and think of what things were out of the architect's control.

That being said, how about all of the "homemade golf courses" out there, and they are easy to find, that can compare to the small design firms, or even compare to one professionally, trained GCA designed golf course?

I guess there is no easy answer to this because in the end, it's all personal opinion on what pleases the eye from an aesthetic standpoint and your own golf game as well.

PS: Where is this flat cattle ranch course, and how did it turn out? You have me wondering!

[Chris_Blakely]

Eric-I think a lot of the criticism of Arthur Hills' work stems from the fact that he has designed a boatload of golf courses and so few of them are remotely memorable. His body of work is a mile wide and an inch deep. Living in Art's home state (Ohio), I have played a fair share of his courses and he has done the Buckeye state no favors when it comes to his designs. There are a number of solid, serviceable golf courses in Tressel land but nothing that stands out (see the discussions of Longaberger on this board to get a taste of how he performed on a terrific site...the sentiment is mixed at best).

To me, the quality of his golf courses has often depended upon which design associate worked on them. Olde Stone in Kentucky is a very cool course with a lot of neat features. Newport National in Rhode Island is very enjoyable and well regarded. Drew Rogers was the Hills' associate who worked on both of them.

When I first went to Hilton Head in the late 1980's, we stayed at Palmetto Dunes. At that time, the Hills course was very much played up as the shining star in their three course galaxy. The last time I was in Hilton Head (a couple of summers ago), the Jones course (which had been redone) was promoted as the center of the Palmetto Dunes universe. I have played the Hills course twice and enjoyed it both times. What I recall is that it is almost a model for what a true resort course should be. It is relatively short. It has few fairway bunkers (probably due to the amount of water hazards on the course). It has a good mix of hard and easy holes so the casual golfer won't get too frustrated. If I remember correctly, I am not that big a fan of the 17th hole (my memory has it as a par four with a canal running down the left side with an approach shot over the hazard to a green pretty close to the water). I did enjoy some of the greensites but I think the rumpled nature of the fairways tapers off as you get beyond the first hole...but my memory could fail me on that account. I wouldn't decline to play there, but I think there are more interesting public options. If anything, that sort of sums up my attitude towards much of Hills' work: solid but not spectacular.

Thanks for posting the pictures. I have met Art Hills and he is a tremendously nice fellow. Send me an IM and I will tell you how I got him to say the "F" word.

Interesting!  Exactly what I have posted about Hills and many other threads about his work!!!  His newer work IMO is much better than some of his older designs where I surmise that his assoicates were less involved.

Chris

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I've always liked the Hills Course at Palmetto Dunes in Hilton Head. It's been in good condition when I've played there as opposed to Harbour Town.

Has anyone played Wolfdancer near Austin , TX? I was in Austin recently and drove by the Hyatt Regency Lost Pines but didn't stop in. Looks like it has received good reviews:

Ranked #56 in Golfweek Magazine's "Top 100 Resort Golf Courses for 2009"
Voted #6 In "Texas' Top Golf Courses You Can Play" by Golfweek Magazine for 2008
Voted #4 in "Top 50 you can play in Texas for 2008"by the Dallas Morning News
Voted "Top Ten New Courses you can play in 2006" by Golf Magazine
"Best Golf Experience in Central Texas for 2006" by Avid Golfer Magazine

www.wolfdancergolfclub.com

[Mike Nuzzo]

Richard

I don't buy the constraint argument on the whole.
To compare architects you can look at some of the components.
Take a look at the green complexes - every architect has 18 opportunities here.
Then take a look the individual holes - there should be at least a couple opportunities even on less than site or client.

cheers

[Adam Clayman]

Michael Whitaker, Thanx for posting the link to the Pix.

One of the re-ocurring motifs I've seen on AH courses is an unnecessary over shaping, in areas that are rarely in-play, but clearly visible. My first reaction is "Look at me, I can move dirt". Either that or his contract provided this incentive??

[Brad Wilbur]

I really enjoyed playing Palmetto Dunes twice (although it was in my pre-GCA mindset).  It was one of my favorites in the Hilton Head area.  The Legacy in Henderson, NV, Palmetto Hall, and Camelback Inn are courses where I was less sold on the architecture.

On his corporate website, he has a section about "good versus great".  The last set of pictures show holes with creeks meandering near the green and into the fairway.  I actually like "good" better than his design because it looks more subtle and realistic.  His design could be at home on a Trump course, although you can "hear" the noise it makes going over the rocks.

[Matt_Ward]

Guys, all this interesting but often side-related yak yak talk about the other elements that are involved is wonderful but frankly the only thing that matters is the finished product. That's what golfers play and that's what is analyzed.

Art Hills courses, from the ones I have played focus for the most part on the "art" dimension -- think of TF-lite.

Hard to imagine that a guy with that many courses in his portfolio -- so few are critically acclaimed as being especially noteworthy.

[Terry Lavin]

Guys, all this interesting but often side-related yak yak talk about the other elements that are involved is wonderful but frankly the only thing that matters is the finished product. That's what golfers play and that's what is analyzed.

Art Hills courses, from the ones I have played focus for the most part on the "art" dimension -- think of TF-lite.

Hard to imagine that a guy with that many courses in his portfolio -- so few are critically acclaimed as being especially noteworthy.

Agreed.  That's why it was disappointing to learn that Hills was chosen as the architect for Chicago Highlands, the newest course built in Chicagoland.  The land offered some interesting challenges and it seems to me that others would have done more inspired work.  As it is, there are still at least six or seven very good holes, which is why it would appear to be just outside the Top 100 Golfweek Modern at this point in time.  Given the blank canvas that the land provided, I consider that a mild disappointment.

[Tim Pitner]

I have experience with two Art Hills designs. The first is the aforementioned course at Palmetto Hall in Hilton Head.... don't remember a whole lot about it other than I was 17 years old and I shot a million. I was trying out a driver that had too flexible a shaft and I spent the whole day fighting a terrible hook.

The other is Legacy Ridge in suburban Denver, which I play frequently, if only because my parents live on it.

It really isn't all that bad to play except for two holes which I absolutely hate (and a couple others that are awkward). It does contain, however, one of my favorite holes in Denver, which is the par-4 13th (this is the one you can see driving on 104th Ave approaching Sheridan Blvd.).

However, the par-fives are all very poor. #6 in particular is really bad. 570 yards from the tips, but you have to lay up off the tee because an environmentally sensitive creek crosses the fairway at 280 out and cannot be carried. The fairway ends and as it does so, there are clusters of trees on either side creating a giant tunnel that you must hit your second shot through. Unless you lay up your tee shot to the dead center of the fairway (which drops off severely on the right and the left), then you have to hit a rope hook or a huge slice just to lay up on your second shot. As if that wasn't bad enough, the fairway in the driving area has a big hump jutting out into the left two-thirds of the fairway which can hold your ball up in rough or kick it off the fairway altogether.

#11 is another stupid par-five similar to #6, except that you have to hit your tee shot over the creek and through the chute.

Then there's #18, which is a 500 yard par-five with a 10 foot wide fairway and thick woods on either side that make you feel like you've somehow been transported to a completely different golf course.

I find in general that it is just way, way too narrow for a public course. There is plenty of wide open space available on many holes yet they have very narrow and uneven mowing lines to all the fairways. The fairways also pinch in at strange spots which aren't visible from the tee, so you often find yourself thinking you are in the fairway when you are actually well off it. It's too close to US Open for my liking.

Matthew is spot on about Legacy Ridge--#6 is one of the worst holes I've ever seen.  There are several other at least somewhat goofy holes at Legacy, some of which are actually fun to play (e.g., #7, #9, #13).  The randomness of the fairway lines is a common feature on the course--you often don't know where the fairway is located within the playing corridor and this isn't done in a clever way--it just seems random. 

I've also played Pipestone outside of Dayton and, while I don't remember many specifics (the day was brutally cold, causing me to forever dispute my brother-in-law's insistence that golf can be played in Dayton in November), I do remember that several holes were total headscratchers.  I've heard that about other Hills courses--even the better regarded ones tend to have at least one hole that is awful (often a par 5 requiring a layup off the tee--one of my least favorite types of holes). 

[Matthew Petersen]

I've played a number of Arthur Hills courses, particularly in the Denver area and a couple here in Phoenix. Probably a few of his courses that I'm unaware are even his.

A few stand out in my mind, including Legacy Ridge in Denver. I only played there 2-3 times, but have always had a soft spot for it since the first time I played there was the first time I broke 80. That said, I agree with the comments on it. It's a strange mix between a few really nice holes, some completely forgettable holes, and a couple that are just terrible.

The two I'm familiar with in Arizona are Stonecreek and the Padre course at Camelback GC. Both are fair to OK courses, not special, but nothing you could possibly expect to be special given their location. I just recently played Padre for the first time and was actually quite impressed with it. It was different from the typically bland modern Art Hills look i was expecting. Not a ton of holes with interest, but for a very low profile course I liked the bunkering and felt like the course had a lot of width.

[Forrest Richardson]

My favorite Hills course (actually done by Hills before his staff got large) was Tammeron in Durango, Colorado. It has since been modified (added 9-holes) and re-worked bunkers by Todd Schroeder. It is a great routing, very interesting with loads of surprises. I also liked the fact that the design sold residential lots, but did so with a great eye toward preservation of open space and allowing the golf to come first. I believe it still has one of the best horseshoe greens...a par-4 with the tee shot to a diagonal along a ledge, and then a drop-shot second to a highly unusual green (across a pond) where yours truly has had more than once been cornered into hitting a sand wedge from one lobe to the other. Maybe someone can post this green.

[Forrest Richardson]

Matthew — In fairness, Keith Foster (while with Hills) pretty much did all the work at Stonecreek. Also, Greg Nash re-did three holes...so, 16% Nash and the rest mostly Foster. Also, Padre was (and still is) a great Red Lawrence design remodeled and twisted into the current layout with Hills bunkers and lake additions and re-dos. The Forrest/Hills Office deserves credit, but I think there are loads of Lawrence qualities still at play at Padre. I was very surprised that Marriott did not focus on the legacy of Lawrence at Padre...to me, it would have been a great story to go with the history there.

[Matthew Petersen]

Thanks for that info, Forrest. There isn't much info available about Stonecreek, but I knew I had looked it up and seen his name associated at one point. A few funky holes out there, but I like that layout overall.

Interesting about Padre, as well. I had never been there before a couple weeks ago and was pretty impressed with the course vs. my expectations. Sad to see the condition they have let the Indian Bend course get into.

Tamarron (now called Glacier Club, I believe) is a course I have played a few times and had no idea it was Art Hills. Some really fun holes there and a really interesting routing in a great location. Given that most of his courses I am familiar with are on relatively plain suburban plots, it's interesting to reflect on what he did in that much more unique spot.