How many US Open courses should California have?

[Paul Richards]

How many CA courses should be in the US Open rota?

From this week's Golf World:

Local knowledge

Odd man out: So who will be the loser in the Torrey Pines vs. Riviera battle to host the U.S. Open? According to one source familiar with the situation, it just might be the Olympic Club in San Francisco. With Torrey's South Course having passed its recent test with flying colors -- when asked whether he thought the renovated course was an Open-caliber layout, USGA executive director David Fay told Golf World, "I believe it is." -- and Riviera being Riviera, a respected and history-strewn layout loved by players and the USGA alike, both could be tabbed for an upcoming Open. Considering Pebble Beach already is in the rota, it's unlikely four Golden State layouts ultimately will be on the USGA short list.

[David_Elvins]

Since Torrey Pines, Pebble Beach and Riviera all host yearly tournaments, it would be a blow for OLympic if it was squeezed out.   But because Riviera and Torrey Pines host yearly tounaments I don't think there would be any need to have them as regulars on the rotation.

[Stan Dodd]

The Open at Torrey Pines, am I missing something.  This course is undeserving historically and strategically.  Now is a course an Open course just because it has 18 to park cars on. This course should never bump Olympic.
Somebody help me see what I am missing.

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

I recall reading somewhere a few months ago that Jim Awtrey said that the PGA was very interested in Olympic as a future site for their tournament. I do know that the PGA and USGA talk about their future plans with each other, so maybe he knows something. I think, not sure, that the PGA has a slot open before the end of the decade. Maybe Olympic will have to go the Baltusrol, Hazeltine, and Medinah route of snuggling up to the PGA if they want to stay in the majors game. The PGA could also dangle ye old Ryder Cup as a little pre-matrimonial bait. I think Awtrey still has one left unpledged sometime before 2020.

Maybe the Olympians that post here can tell us if they have seen horse-trader Jim on the grounds lately.

[Stan Dodd]

Shivas,There are too many really good courses to use that we need to bring a ho-hum track into the rotation.  Muirfield is a great option.  I like the idea of an 8 to 10 course rota and new tracks that may be worthy first testing their mettle in the PGA.

[Mike_Cirba]

We have hit the sad point where Merion is not considered worthy of a US Open, and Torrey Pines is.  

[BillV]

Cirba

What if Merion were in California? ? ? ?

Hmmmmmmmmm?

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

Mike Cirba,

I know you, and surely a lot of the Merion members are disappointed that the course is apparently out of the running for the National Open. I hated to see that great old, historical course jumping through hoops to try to get back in, when they were probably out of the running all along.  

I think a far better course of action for them would be to wear it as a Badge of Honor that they are considered unsuitable for a modern day Open, and instead delight in being the quintessential Amateur site. There's no shame that things out of their control took the course out of the running.

Just an observation from the peanut gallery, could be wrong.

[Joel_Stewart]

I read the article and was a little surprised.  Last months Olympic Club newsletter said the club was still in discussion with the USGA for the 2008 Open.  Another member told me that the club had to take the US Junior (which they did) in order to get the Open.

Whats surprising to me is after the Open in 1998, the USGA had a party on that Sunday to celebrate what a great US Open it was.  Olympic has all of the ingrediants to put on the Open, mainly a second course for corporate tents, parking and a population base, all of which are now needed.  Merion doesn't have the spare room, and the traffic would be terrible, something I believe the USGA will weigh for Riveria as well.

[Dan Kelly]

Mike Cirba --

When they finally give us that Competition Ball, Merion will be right back on the Open map -- where it belongs.

Let 'em play the PGA Championship at Torrey Pines -- with the Competition Ball, from the white tees.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Olympic has all of the ingrediants to put on the Open, mainly a second course for corporate tents, parking and a population base, all of which are now needed.

And a flat 18th green.  

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

In thinking more about Merion, maybe it will be the quintessential Amateur site AFTER a competition ball comes in. Some of those amateurs can hit the ball as far as any of the pros, if not farther. Merion's space problems will probably never be solved, so unless the USGA wants to hold a down-sized Open there, the Open would probably never be back there even after a competition ball.

Maybe right now Merion is the quintessential Senior Open site, at 6700 yards.

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

The USGA has a pretty good clue how an Open would play out at Merion. They are not the complete bumbling fools some try to make them out to be. They just lack balls on certain things. They need to throw away the bow-ties, and hire a General Patton.

The 2005 Amateur there will fill in the rest of the canvas. You still have a space problem. They want money. Didn't someone once say greed is good?

[THuckaby2]

shivas, shivas, shivas.  Let's not go down THIS road again.  Go over to Tom Paul's best architect thread and you'll see me sing the praises of Pasa.  But I've played those greens at top, grass still able to live speeds, and with those contours it's goofy golf at that.  While I would like to see the pros suffer like anyone else, an Open there with increased green speeds would be beyond silly.  Give them bad enough pins and I don't care if it's shortened to the red tees at 5500, 300+ would win if that's what the bluecoats really want.

I don't see that as the way to go any more so than lengthening courses to 8000 yards.

This also begs the question of all the other logistical problems with Pasa, and the fact it's not really public - it's semi-private most definitely, as the folks holding memberships currently priced over $300K will seriously want to confirm!

I too am all in favor of holding USOpens at truly public courses... and yes, it is sad we have so few that are worthy.  VERY sad, for me personally.

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Gary,

You're right that it was sad to see Merion trying to make all sorts of changes to curry USGA favor.  What a pity, truly.

And, I was going to make your point that the amateurs probably drive the ball further per player than the professionals, so I don't follow the USGA logic that says its a great venue for the amateurs but too short for the professionals.  That's just double-speak.

As far as a great Senior Open site, that's sort of like taking your sister to the prom, don't you think?  I mean, Saucon Valley Old hosted that shindig, and there are probably 20 courses better in the state of PA alone.  

And, finally...what better way for the USGA to show that a 6,700 yard golf course can still be a test and that money isn't everything by returning to Merion, space problems and all....nevermind the historical significance.  Limit daily attendance to 15,000 and make the ticket prices significant to cover the difference if you must, but shit...why do we need 35,000 heads peering and pushing over each other to host a golf tournament anyway??

[THuckaby2]

shivas, I'm as incredulous as you are re Pasa membership.  For your $300K plus, you basically get to play in the morning, assuming they don't also sell too many of those pre-11am times to shleps like us.

NorCal is a wonderful place, isn't it?

But yes, as you can also imagine, if and when one of these very few members wants to sell, he/she doesn't have to wait long to find a buyer.  Maybe he/she waits longer NOW than two years ago, but still, these memberships do indeed change hands.

TH

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

Mike,

Maybe one day it would make for an interesting post for someone like you that is very knowledgeable about Merion to :

Pretend your a top pro playing in an Open at Merion, and what clubs you would probably play off of each tee, and what club you would probably have in for the 2nd shot, assuming you're in the fairway. You could assume the standard Open fairway widths of 28-35 yards, which is what they do year after year. You could also assume dry conditions. Lord knows what the scores might be if the course was very soft. Anyhow, my guess is that the pros, in dry conditions with narrow fairways, would NOT play bombs away from the tee, but instead would iron Merion to death off the tees, stringing them down the middle (dry conditions, and you know those guys could string those irons) and having a lot of short iron 2nd shots on the 4 pars. In other words, they would play percentage , stroke-play golf. The USGA would probably not have the guts to widen the fairways to encourage attacking play, which could lead to the double-bogeys.
My whole thought on this would MOST of the 14 clubs in the bag get used, or would it be the long iron, short iron Open? As you probably know, Meeks of the USGA is saying there are 12 or more wedge shots at Merion.  Doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about, but it does make me wonder if a representative bag would be played at a Merion Open. And a representative bag being played would be my goal. I know that is harder and harder to do. One other thing, would Merion have to be tricked and slicked past the point of fairness as we all know the USGA has a thing about scoring?

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

Shivas,

I was just having fun with that greed is good line. In my opinion, when it comes to golf greed is not good.

The governing types might have an entirely different view of the matter.

[Mike_Cirba]

Gary,

That's a great question and I don't know what golf course Mr. Meeks is playing.  I would generally agree that the pros would try to "iron" Merion to death given the typical USGA setup, and I don't see where that approach leads to 12 wedge shots.  

For my preference, I'd rather see them widen the holes, as you suggest, and possibly then we might see something in the range of 12 wedge approaches.  

I'll see if I can't reply in depth during the next day or so...especially now that holes 3, 5, 6, and 18 are significantly longer than the last time a major event was hosted there.

[Stan Dodd]

If they want to hold the Open at public course as I have said befor bring it Bayonet, plenty of room for all the corporate tents and parking etc.  Let the big boys play four days on that track set up firm and fast>

[THuckaby2]

Whitey, now you are speaking my language!  Interesting... the more I think of it, the more Bayonet seems to be a west coast Bethpage Black.  It's sure as HELL closer to that than Torrey.  And it damn well has tournament hosting experience, given the buy.com tour events and tour school qualifying as well as a host of other amateur tourneys held there the last few years.

Problem is, there's a lil ole course about 5 miles away that tends to get its share of USOpens.  And the SoCals want their bone....

This would be cool, but it's not reality.  Unfortunately.

TH

[Gib_Papazian]

There is no point in rehashing arguments that Olympic is an ideal Open site, but in my mind its objectivity and ability to test players of different lengths equally make the Lake course ideal.    

If the stated goal in selecting a US Open site is to provide a golf course that will force the professionals to use all 14 clubs, then Torrey looks to have some limitations.

My guess is that with the exception of Tiger, Duvall, Mickelson, Daly, Davis Love etc, the majority of the players will be wearing a hole  through their 2-irons - effectively all but eliminated before the first group goes off.

This entire chase to protect par is a ridiculous and betrays a case of false machisimo by the USGA. Why does an Open  course have to be a long brute? To make everyone hit their driver?

If the USGA has decided that all future Open courses are going to be set up as crude obstacle courses - demanding physical power at the expense of mental acumen - what have they proven?

Are we trying to "identify"* the best player or the longest hitters?

If you hit lots of short irons approaches at Merion, so  what?

What a stupid argument that Merion is outdated and would have to be "tricked-up" to hold the Open!

What do you call growing arbitrary rough lines, completely out of context with the architecture of the golf course? Tricked up, that is what. And they do it on every golf  course  from Winged Foot to Pebble Beach.

      

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

Gib,

Of course the object is to identify the best player! Where is it written, or who ever said, that the object of the game was to identify the longest hitter?

I believe you said something like "If you hit lots of short iron approaches at Merion, so what?" Call me stupid, but I would have a problem with a course holding the National Open calling for LOTS of short iron approaches!!! You bet your ass I would! Afterall, how many non-putting shots do these guys play in a round? A representative bag should be played. That does mean that all 14 clubs have to be used. A representative bag. Also, a course should give a player options to give him a chance to make good or lousy decisions under the gun. We may all probably agree that the USGA setup does not always give a player a lot of options.

One other thing. Merion's lack of space for tents, etc., should not be a factor in the USGA decision to go there. That truly is a special course deserving special consideration, and the USGA should forego the commercial crap for one year, so long as the course can provide a true test of a player's bag and mind.

[Gary Smith (Guest)]

The preceding post should be amended to say "that does NOT mean that all 14 clubs have to be played."

Obviously, it's getting harder and harder for any course to require all 14 clubs to be used during a round.  

[Paul Richards]

I think this was the subject of a long-ago thread, but what
if the USGA decides it cannot reign in the ball, and goes to
a 8 or 10-club maximum?

Does this let Merion back into the picture?