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Dónal Ó Ceallaigh

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #400 on: November 04, 2010, 05:15:00 AM »
This forum has degenerated to the point where even Mucci can't keep it in his pants. I'm losing what hope I had for some sort of eventual return to civil discussion of Golf Course Architecture.

What's the most popular topic on the DG?

13 pages, 438 posts and 7113 views and still counting.

This topic should have been deleted a long long time ago.

A.G._Crockett

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #401 on: November 04, 2010, 06:36:34 AM »
AG:  justify all you want.  They had it.  60 votes.  For the first time since the late 70s.  And it was wielded like a sledgehammer.

You're right:  Obama was elected...on the lie that he'd bring people together. 

Then he slammed the door in their face.

So people reacted.  And they reacted big.  And that's accurate and factual.   Want something more accurate and factual?  The standard in the Senate used to be 67%.  It went DOWN to 60%.  Who brought it down?  The Democrats.  In the 70s.  Look it up.  Get your facts straight.   

Dave T.:  I stand by every word.   That stuff at the end of your "definition" was not a definition at all.  They were examples.  You're still confusing definitions of things with examples of things?  C'mon man....

Just spoon-fed party line pablum, straight off talk radio.  I would have expected better.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Jud_T

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #402 on: November 04, 2010, 11:35:37 AM »
How anybody can watch MSNBC or FOX for more time than it takes to hit the clicker again is beyond my comprehension....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Phil McDade

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #403 on: November 04, 2010, 12:31:33 PM »
Lifting a line from Bill Cosby, have you ever actually watched somebody have a conniption so violent that their face literally splits in two?

Cosby said that about the greatest running back ever to live ;) (a different body part, though...)

Tim Pitner

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #404 on: November 04, 2010, 12:43:07 PM »
Shivas,

The term "totalitarianism" applies only to a very repressive form of government (beyond that of mere authoritarianism, which includes your run-of-the-mill Third World dictators)--it's very extreme, such that there really are only a few examples in history.  No U.S. government has been authoritarian in nature, let alone totalitarian.  

P.S. I didn't use Wikipedia's definition because I was presenting it as authoritative--I used it because it was convenient and consistent with the definition that is used in the political science field.  

Let's let it go--you're using the term in a very loose, hyperbolic way--so be it.  

George Pazin

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #405 on: November 04, 2010, 01:00:19 PM »
Shivas,

The term "totalitarianism" applies only to a very repressive form of government (beyond that of mere authoritarianism, which includes your run-of-the-mill Third World dictators)--it's very extreme, such that there really are only a few examples in history.  No U.S. government has been authoritarian in nature, let alone totalitarian.  

P.S. I didn't use Wikipedia's definition because I was presenting it as authoritative--I used it because it was convenient and consistent with the definition that is used in the political science field.  

Let's let it go--you're using the term in a very loose, hyperbolic way--so be it.  

It's interesting, I see your point, but I feel the exact opposite way, and not just because I agree with Shivas. I would much prefer that you point out what you feel are totalitarian aspects of Bush or anyone else and we have - or at least attempt to have! - an honest discussion about these elements, than have everyone agree not to use the term, simply because those in charge - on either side - aren't as totalitarian as Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, take your pick.

The term I've seen many use is "soft totalitarianism" or "soft despotism", and I think you're kidding yourself if you don't think we've moved in that direction in the last 10 years, or even the last 80.

The attitude of many seems to be "Well, your guy sucked, too, so you have to put up with my guy sucking as much or more".

Do you really think it can't happen here? That we're somehow special and impervious?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Phil McDade

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #406 on: November 04, 2010, 01:24:45 PM »
How anybody can watch MSNBC or FOX for more time than it takes to hit the clicker again is beyond my comprehension....

For moments like this! :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVQvuQ1s11k

Sean_A

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #407 on: November 04, 2010, 01:30:25 PM »
Well, some of you lot use the term "totalitariansim" very, very loosely.  I associate that term with

complete and total state control
refusal of government/one party rule to recognize other parties

I also associate totalitarianism with the suppresion of independent media, no constitutional doctrines to impede on government power and the suppression of undesirable cultures.  

I would venture a guess and say the US is NOWHERE near this state of governement.  It is usually better in these sorts of discussions to avoid interacting with chaps prone to hysteria.  

Shivas, what are these totalitarian laws that were passed back in 2009 that filibustering could have prevented?

Ciao

« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 01:32:08 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Phil McDade

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #408 on: November 04, 2010, 01:34:21 PM »
It's interesting, I see your point, but I feel the exact opposite way, and not just because I agree with Shivas. I would much prefer that you point out what you feel are totalitarian aspects of Bush or anyone else and we have - or at least attempt to have! - an honest discussion about these elements, than have everyone agree not to use the term, simply because those in charge - on either side - aren't as totalitarian as Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, take your pick.


George:

Lincoln and Bush both suspended habeus corpus during their presidencies:

http://www.slate.com/id/2059132/

http://www.heritage.org/research/lecture/abraham-lincoln-and-civil-liberties-in-wartime


Craig Sweet

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #409 on: November 04, 2010, 04:58:01 PM »
Boy, to mention Lincoln and Bush in the same sentence takes balls!   Somehow suspending habeus corpus during a Civil War....the bloodiest war ever fought on US soil....is not quite the same as doing it in support of a respondce to a terrorist attack.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

George Pazin

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #410 on: November 04, 2010, 05:04:29 PM »
Nor does suspending habeus corpus for non-citizens compare to suspending it for all...

Phil, I'll send you a message.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

A.G._Crockett

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #411 on: November 04, 2010, 06:19:30 PM »
That anyone that is sane, intelligent, and educated would attempt to equate a popularly elected bicameral legislature and an elected chief executive, each working in an elaborate system of separated powers and with an equally elaborate system of checks and balances, and both of whom are subject to not only to popular sovereignty but agree to a peaceful transfer of power with totalitarianism (by ANY definition of that term!) is just pathetic.  And it says a lot about what is wrong in the country right now.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Patrick Hodgdon

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #412 on: November 04, 2010, 11:40:29 PM »
Why don't we cut some money from the broken welfare system that encourages a culture of entitlement?

What do those on the left here think about Waiting for Superman and the broken education system and Teacher's Unions that we've thrown gobs of money at over the last 40 years and seen no improvement in?

Why are government employees the only ones left in this country getting 100% of their health care costs paid for and very significant pensions while everyone else is struggling to keep their 401ks?

Can we learn anything from the economic prosperity Lee Kwan Yew established in Singapore in what was once a third world country?

Why can't we learn from history from those who worked with FDR that big government programs to solve economic programs just don't work?

Why can't we learn from our past when Reagan did nothing after the market crashed and we went on a 20 year run of prosperity and growth?

Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

Craig Sweet

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #413 on: November 05, 2010, 12:49:29 AM »
Patrick...the "welfare system" was dismantled by Clinton nearly 20 years ago. Are you telling me the government plan to build the Interstate Highway system failed? That the GI Bill failed? That the Marshall Plan failed? Are you telling me that Social Security and Medicare, the two most popular programs ever, are failures? Are you telling me the Tennessee Valley Authority, and Bonneville were failures? Please show me a single government...city, county, state, or federal that is still paying 100% of their employees health insurance. I don't believe it is happening, but if it is, more power to them. I have been involved with several salary surveys involving public employees and in every case the majority of public employees were being paid less than their privately employed counter part.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Patrick Hodgdon

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #414 on: November 05, 2010, 01:25:10 AM »
Stuff like this story is what I am talking about in regards to welfare and the culture of entitlement:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-welfare-20101004,0,5787669.story

As for an example of government employees and teachers not having to pay for health care you can look here (btw I should have said "some" govt. employees and not implied all, my apologies)

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/02/wide-reaching_pension_and_bene.html
Did you know World Woods has the best burger I've ever had in my entire life? I'm planning a trip back just for another one between rounds.

"I would love to be a woman golfer." -JC Jones

A.G._Crockett

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #415 on: November 05, 2010, 06:15:44 AM »
Stuff like this story is what I am talking about in regards to welfare and the culture of entitlement:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-welfare-20101004,0,5787669.story

As for an example of government employees and teachers not having to pay for health care you can look here (btw I should have said "some" govt. employees and not implied all, my apologies)

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/02/wide-reaching_pension_and_bene.html


As a general rule of logic, the instance does not prove the generalization.  For instance, I'm currently in my 37th year as a teacher; I've paid for my health insurance the entire time.  Every single month for the entire 37 years.  Does that mean that EVERY teacher everywhere does so?  I sure not.

So don't post a link about one place and make a generalization about the entire subject.  It's silly sound-bite stuff, and like so much of this noise, keeps us from meaningful debate.

And giving Reagan the credit for the 90's run up in the stock market is very creative stuff, BTW.  Does he get the blame for the dot.com bubble bursting as well.  C'mon...
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Bill_McBride

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #416 on: November 05, 2010, 08:10:41 AM »
Patrick, my daughter is a GS-9 microbiologist with the USDA and pays a percentage of her healthcare premium and copays just like my employees.

Where is this "welfare" you mention?

My prescription is less Fox News and more golf!

Craig Sweet

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #417 on: November 05, 2010, 10:45:37 AM »
Patrick...interesting article from the LA Times, but really, I think low income,and out of work people are allowed to travel seeking employment and to spent their money at Walmarts buying food and clothes. It's a bit disingenuous to suggest that California welfare money spent in Vegas was for gambling and entertainment....Las Vegas did have a vibrant economy and employed thousands of low skilled workers. An unemployed person from California seeking work in the Vegas service industry would not be unusual.

There is also the implication that someone receiving a few hundred dollars a month is living some sort of lavish lifestyle.....try it and tell me how it is working for you.  Current unemployment benefits pay a little less than half of your working salary and are typically capped at about $500 per week.....and in some states even lower.
LOCK HIM UP!!!

PThomas

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #418 on: November 05, 2010, 12:50:23 PM »
very probably my last post on this subject...

Shivas - even if you sincerely believe that "totalitarianism" is the correct word - and i'd like to find one other person that does -..if such a word bothers several others, dont you think it would be prudent to not use the word in an attempt to move discussions forward in a more positive way?  its unfortuante enough that the country is so far apart on some issues, using inflammatory language only adds fule to the fire.....

I think such rhetoric is exactly the kind of discussion between bother parties that is stopping progress on meaningful issues in Washington
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Tim Leahy

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #419 on: November 05, 2010, 12:52:24 PM »
Getting back to the original topic, I don't think you will have to worry about those poor country clubs since the new speaker of the house of reps had over 150 reported rounds of golf last year. Just how much does Boehner make a year? Now there is government waste at its finest! :P
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

JESII

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #420 on: November 05, 2010, 12:58:07 PM »
Really Tim? Is that the original topic?




Paul,

I would venture to say those Shivas is talking about are less offended by his use of that term than "Cheater Line" users are of that one...

Bill_McBride

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #421 on: November 05, 2010, 01:24:08 PM »
I just did a quick Google search of:  "Obama Pelosi totalitarian"

One Million Three Hundred Seventy Thousand (1,370,000) hits.

I ain't the only one....  :o

Had no idea you could type that fast!

Did you use the "AND" search modifier?  If not you are getting hits for Obama and Pelosi that don't include totalitarianism.

But I suspect you know that.   ;)

I'm still not gonna use the cheater line.......

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #422 on: November 05, 2010, 01:27:31 PM »
Just got an email from Links Mag, detailing Presidential golfers.  Our golfingest Prez was Woodrow Wilson, with over 1000 rounds in 8 years (during WWI no less, for which he would be crucified today) with Ike next at 800, supposedly played for health reasons, and largely at Augusta National.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tim Bert

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #423 on: November 05, 2010, 01:32:07 PM »
I just did a quick Google search of:  "Obama Pelosi totalitarian"

One Million Three Hundred Seventy Thousand (1,370,000) hits.

I ain't the only one....  :o

Had no idea you could type that fast!

Did you use the "AND" search modifier?  If not you are getting hits for Obama and Pelosi that don't include totalitarianism.

But I suspect you know that.   ;)

I'm still not gonna use the cheater line.......

fyi -

"McCain totalitarian" = 1,390,000 results

"republican totalitarian" = 3,410,000 results

"shivas totalitarian" = 355,000

"San Francisco Giants totalitarian" = 7,390  ;D

V. Kmetz

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Re: The White House will soon make golf/country clubs extinct if
« Reply #424 on: November 05, 2010, 01:32:39 PM »
All,

I always think of myself as a guest on this site and am grateful to have a place to discuss and hold forth on GCA.  And I'm mad at both topics and people that posit the ugly politics of the naked world into this haven.  And I'm mad at the absence of a moderating presence to instantly nip such threads in the bud, no matter the veneration of those who may have posted then.

That said, you electioneering, "Liberal Ideology has brought us down" morons, you have asked for it.

1.  Patrick Mucci Shivas et al - who the f*** are you, Marie Antoinette? – You with your foolish idle holdings about how the liberal president will end the economic viability of the country club set.  Where the hell have you been, certainly not the major clubs of the NE because there, not one less lobster dinner has been eaten, not one less Mercedes SUV has been leased, renovations and re-modelings are at a fever pitch – both at their clubs and their homes, caddie fees have gone UP.  Have clubs bitten the dust? Yes two, in this area...the worst two, least desirable clubs in the region Hampshire and Ridgeway.  Two, out of 250 and Donald Trump continues to build...and where the hell is the conservative. Laissez-faire Adam Smith bullshit you folks (yes, I’m painting with a large brush) have to say about everything else, that the "market will take care of it?"  The absolute 100% bottom line for those of you who belong to country clubs is this:  If you cannot afford to take the $10,000 - $50,000 it takes to fully enjoy a country club per year and throw it in the goddamn fire place for the next decade, then you should not be there - period.  It is the height of luxury and if you avert your eyes from yesterday's 1.6 trillion dollar war, and 400 Billion administrative price tag for the Patriot Act - both still running - and instead yell about a health care system you haven't paid a nickel for and one you likely will not use if you prefer not to, and will always afford private or workplace insurance - then go to hell, you and your sniffling luxury of silly f'n golf

2.  And it makes me laugh to hear such talk about all the out of work country club folks that might result - "oh heavens, they will add to the bleak situation."  Please.  To start with, most of the people that make posts like Mucci's are quite often the same ones saying we have got to do something about immigration and our borders.  If you spent any time at the employees’ quarters of the Country club, Mr. Mucci, you will find them to be populated by those of predominantly Latino descent.  I cannot give you accurate numbers but I have worked with these wonderful people for 30 years and if you promise not to tell ICE, I'll tell you that about 20% of them are or were illegal in the last year.  But even if you're not willing to do an ICE raid on Quaker Ridge or United Fruit or Del Monte foods fields, it doesn't matter because the odd fallen country club that Obama's incompetence will shutter will result in the loss of about 35-60 employees, of which 8 are management who have transferable skills and saved wealth enough for 3 years of job search, 4 are administrative and it is their second job, 15 are part-time seasonal and minimum wage, a few are on the cusp of coming retirement and the other 15-35 you didn't want in the country in the first place! And if they must come, why must they bring their families...?  So go haggle that point amongst the other broken-by government clubmen that seem to gravitate to your political opinion and sell your "Country Clubs Grow our Economy" jobs program to someone else, nobody with knowledge of the situation is buying.

3. Maybe the most annoying aspect of those who think the government is all over their economic ass is they never talk about themselves...it always some discrete number, some scale, some amorphous victim like "small business" owner and "future taxes' and "our children's future," never about a specific story, never about your own, just a self-approved analysis of mechanism that could possibly illustrate your point...Wanna know the reason?  there's not so many of em...the jobs that were lost from businesses big and small between Jan 2009 and three months ago were lost to credit squeeze, no rotating flow of borrowing capital to restore monthly debt to revenue flow, lost to both Wall street corruption and regulatory incompetence that is always, always the result of that tired ol' conservative mantra to politics, "good business environment."  So, while Bush's caricature of Attorney Generals were trying to explain how torture is justifiable and a Conservative congress was thumping the patriotism drums  with debates about the pledge of allegiance and crashing the morality cymbals with national debate and disgrace about Terry Schiavo's husband pulling the plug on his wastrel wife...while all this went on, under conservative aegis...Fannie and Freddie went wild, the SEC was blind to even the most false rackets like Madoff as well as the mortgage-backed security derivatives that collapsed Bear...and what was the goddamn result of that era? So there's a story for you, a real one, and it was authored by a six year period of conservative hysteria which controlled all three branches of national government, a majority of governor's mansions. So either you tell me how something Obama, Pelosi and Reid have authored has taken money out of YOUR pockets, YOUR dreams, prevented YOU from getting or keeping a job, prevented YOUR children from goign to school, caused YOU to take a second job, destroyed YOUR investments and prevented YOU from making future investments or shut the hell up with the boot-strapped platitudes because you got no beef.  You just don't want to pay at all do you, for the fat past or the trim future, you just want your country club retreat industry to be strong...  

4.  This is specifically addressed to the news articles Patrick H posted...the first story...69.8M in gambling, booze, drugs and luxury vacations on the part of CA welfare recipients...I read it and I have a few numbers of my own.  One of the key evaluation numbers that this and any story like it fail to contextualize is...how many people are on this regimen of welfare in CA?  The number is hard to find, but it is 1.3 million/37 million total Californians.  That comes to $53.70 of terribly frivolous spending per CA welfare recipient, who represent 3.5% of the total population.  But of course we know from some of the individual price tags of the frivolous items in the news story that some were spending much more than that $53.70 share of the total number.  And we also know that not every single welfare recipient is corrupt so many are not even taking their $53.70 in corrupt spending while some are indeed spending exactly $53.70 on lottery tickets and beer per year. So how many are corrupt of the 1.3 million collecting welfare? It can't be all of them, what...? 100,000? 200,000? 300,000?...you tell me...but remember the closer you come to saying all 1.3 million, you are saying that these people, the poorest people in their state are bilking the 26 million taxpayers of California who paid 313 Billion in Federal taxes to the tune of $2.65 cents per year.  And this is what irritates you, about a state I'm not sure you live in and about a class of the poorest that rob you of a Starbucks coffee - what's your story?  I agree that the welfare system is in decline from restorative care to that of a palliative care, but what are you going to do...not give the many who convalesce or sustain with the help because of a pittance the most desperate of the poor steal from you?  How can you square that with any morality or ethics scheme you can otherwise devise?  It is part of the progressive liberalism that I believe in, that acknowledged long before you started haggling over the check. That said there is a certain segment of any natural order will wither and fade perversely, there but for the grace of God go I, and as an enlightened human being I pay the pittance alms to see some reverse their course, but knowing that desperate segment will always fall and it is humane to cushion their fall too.  For all the hair-pulling about the issue - it comes down to that. Oh yeah a few scoundrels have really made the system a slick con and live larger than the people they bilk, but at trivial expense compared to that of the same small sample of the corrupt at the top of the individual, business and corporate income bracket – they will be in Washington to lobby the Tea-party too – bank on it.

5.  Please tell me...when has conservative-libertarian-small government values ever been validated by the course of history? American history, for starters.  At every turn I can recall - please refresh me - the conservative-small government path has been repudiated as being on the wrong side of history.  To be conservative and anti-government interference has been to oppose abolition of slavery, civil rights, women's suffrage, trust and baron reform, child-labor, food and drug regulation, the TVA and the entirety of the New Deal and the income tax - which caused the early 20th century barons to put it to work for the benefit of the public in donations that founded libraries, museums and most of the fine cultural items that truly share the wealth of human experience with all and not hoard it for personal amusement - which is what the world's aristocracies and royalties did for a thousand years before.  And of what of the great NY liberal Al Smith whose pragmatic visionary agent Robert Moses literally stole Long Island prime shores from the Vanderbilts and the Whitneys and envisoned all its bridges, tunnels, roads, thousand public parks, public pools and parkways to get there. That was a liberal vision, that gave the very aesthetic  country clubs prosper by and the one which conservatives wish the world would return, only Eisenhower would be President instead of FDR or Wilson. There are so many more – but please give me an instance where when we look back at the true gigantum of history where the progressive, liberal movement hasn’t been validated, where calamity bought by conservatives and hoarders wasn’t rescued by a liberal ideology to save the nation from collapse, division or ruin.  If it was up to you morons, Jefferson would have been blocked by parliamentary maneuvers from making the Louisiana Purchase.  Yeah, isn’t that great – the first massive liberal stimulus spending which brought ZERO dollars in revenues for nearly 15 years and was just a huge massive debt that represented a healthy chunk of the entire nation’s wealth.  Don’t think it can happen today?…bullshit…if the US were offered South America for 10 trillion dollars today, the conservative, anti-government forces would block it.  Save our children’s future!

I am so sorry that I made this disgraceful post, disgraceful in that I should be provoked to share such opinions which don’t matter outside of my home, made more disgraceful by the fact that it was insinuated to a Golf and GCA forum to make the provocation, and disgraceful in that I used vulgarities and name-calling to make the rhetorical points.  Disgraceful in that I addressed people as if I know them from how they post on a GCA board. I am sorry but this thread made me do it.

If I’m kicked off the board for making such a post, all I ask is that Ran please put up my Siwanoy profile with the pictures that I last gave him for its posting. I’d much rather that be my last post than this.

Again, I’m sorry to the offended and the furthered angered and the fatigued. I will try to limp back to the WF discussions and do better there.

Cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

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