News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2010, 04:54:59 PM »
A couple of house cleaning items before we continue:

I would be out of line to consider myself being one who suffered a loss because of the death of a fine man and father who I hardly knew.  I was fortunate to have attended his funeral and thankful for the unusual series of events which gave me an opportunity to learn something about myself and the power of symbolism.  No one needs to defend how that relates to golf course architecture.

Backwards mind golfing is a form a meditation that I use to clear my mind of obstructions that may be preventing sleep, inducing boredom or in this case inflicting emotions that are socially unacceptable for any given situation.  note:  It is not acceptable for a casual acquaintance to cry more at a funeral than the widow or family.  Backwards mind golfing simply consists of starting at the cup of the 18th hole of a recent golf round and working backwards shot to shot evaluating your skill and strategies. It is possible to go into a degree of detail where nothing else is allowed to occupy your mind. I like sometimes to award shot of the day or club of the day as well as various razzies given the general mood of the day.  I know I am not alone in this practice as it was recently profiled in a Dilbert cartoon and I seem to recall Jim Franklin telling me once he is also a practitioner.

Thank you for your patience as I attempt to formulate answers to your other questions.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2010, 04:57:33 PM »
Greg Clark and I drove a couple of hours yesterday to play the highly-regarded Pine Dunes and a re-developed The Cascades in east Texas.  Among the many problems and paradoxes we discussed, solved, or disposed off was the reapperance of the enigmatic JK on this site.

And what a strange, but so in-character initial re-introduction by John!

As the famed instructor Hank Haney once remarked to a student "your swing is in so many planes I don't know which to look at", this one is so obtuse- maybe a Rorschach- that I don't know what to address.  But as is often the case, JK is provocative and irreverent if not entertaining.

I'll pass on the frivolous and address the serious from a personal perspective.

I pray for faith, clarity, and understanding each night.  I'd like to take solace from Mr. Hendren's sentiment, but my consistent struggles in this area betray the possibility of hope.  Unlike my friend Greg Clark who has received confirmation in his search,  HE hasn't deemed necessary or appropriate to respond in mine (does "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?" have any relevance here?).

Regarding dying and funerals, early in my youth I served a number of requiem masses.  Though I could tolerate the incense and liked the music and pagentry, they were often too long and somber.  I didn't sense much closure and amelioration of grief as a result.

By contrast, I found the Protestant funeral and the family gathering after internment a more satisfactory experience.  Perhaps the balloon release was symbolic of a life enhanced by the association with JD having been well-lived and now progressing to the next level in the spiritual realm.

My wife believes that funerals are for the benefit of the bereaved as opposed to the deceased.  She has told me that my wishes regarding my funeral and services are secondary to those of the family and friends.  I suppose that she is correct (and I'll be at a terrible disadvantage anyways).

So, what does all this have to do with GCA?  I don't possess the mental acuity to see things from JK's perspective, but perhaps he is intimating that an industry which mushroomed for a couple of decades is now in the throes of passing to the next dimension.  Maybe opportunities in China, India, Brazil, and other emerging markets will forestall its demise.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2010, 05:01:19 PM »
The most positive thing I can see from the return of JK is that Lou Duran has now posted for the first time in close to a year.

How are you, Lou?  I missed you this weekend at the Dixie Cup.  I had some world problems we needed to solve before the 2nd tee so I could get some clarity and move on.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2010, 05:08:59 PM »
John,

I see this is your first post.  Perhaps you are new here.  The moderator, Ran, just posted that those posting only off-topic will be deleted from the discussion group.  If this happens to you, you will still be free to read the discussion group (as all those with internet access are).  It would indeed be a shame if nobody gets a chance to know you better.  You seem like an interesting fellow.
Not sure if you are serious, but John has been around the block before. Did you not notice all of the Welcome Backs?
yeah, i was kidding about not knowing of John.  I thought it would be more interesting if I didn't put a wink at the end.  It'll be our little secret, ok?  Let's see how people react.   ;)

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2010, 05:12:51 PM »
Bart
I'm surprised that hanging around the treehouse hasn't lifted your belief in people
Even seeing Dave & Tom do, whatever it is they do, they sure do it with panache and brightness
I believe in people more and more every day

Lou
Sorry to hear you will be second fiddle at your own passing
I disagree

JK
I mind golf forwards - infrequently - obviously not as focus heavy or immersive
do you swing backwards too?

Ben
great to hear from afar

My balloon would be a big fish
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #30 on: October 25, 2010, 05:16:30 PM »
Welcome John.

Surely an act of faith, Ran admitting you back?
Let's make GCA grate again!

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2010, 05:17:33 PM »
I think it was Stravinksy who, when asked where the great music of the world comes from, answered: "It might come from the unconscious, or the supra-conscious, I don't know. But one thing I'm sure of - it doesn't come from the self-conscious."  And I think it was Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a deeply religious and saintly man, who wrote: "We serve a God who forces us to live in a world without god".  And then there is an anonymous Buddhist monk who said: "All I've learned in 30 years of being a monk I can sum up like this: Everything that arises passes away".  But I think I'll add Adam's thoughts to the list, Adam Clayman that is: "It doesn't matter what we believe, we have to deal with what is.".  Oh, if only hitting a 3 iron was as easy as spinning these words; that's why architects needn't place water hard by the green on long Par 3s.

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2010, 05:21:36 PM »
There is no paradox.

The ballloons go skyward, and dissipate into the air, and your friend's life is no more, and his physical body is set to dissipate as well, and the person that he was has dissipated into the ether, etc. Knowing exactly why it makes you sad isn't the point, like knowing what happens after we die and all the need for knowing that for some replaces faith isn't the point either. There's some value for me in trusting the ineffable.

And if I take that kind of thinking into a direction that includes playing golf, and enjoying the design of a golf course, I'd say that keeping score is only one way of enjoying a round of golf, and that there are a lot of other, ineffable joys to be had playing this game.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2010, 05:48:11 PM »


Will I be mocked if I ask to be buried in my ASGCA Ross Tartan blazer?


Might as well be buried with you as in the nearest landfill soon after your death.  Knowing that my life can not be symbolized by something so simple troubles me deeply. 

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2010, 06:46:22 PM »
JK,
Ones faith can increase on a golf course - if you take time to witness God's greatness.  Quiet your spirit, listen to nature, your friends, your heart.

Look at the beauty that God has made.  Look at the beauty that man has made.  All good things come from God.

God is omnipresent, we just need to shut up and listen once in a while.

As far as faith dissipation goes - I've certainly been mad at God many times.  Letting my mother suffer with Parkinsons and passing from complications of that horrible disease example makes no sense.  Letting a dear friend's wife get AIDS (tainted blood transfusion), and leaving 4 kids without their mom.  I'm really mad at God right now because of the way my father is suffering in his old age.   These things just don't make sense and sure they shake my faith.  The loss of your friend can shake your faith, but it's in the questioning that we can sometime find strength.

I pray that you find peace in your time of loss.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 06:51:41 PM by Dan Herrmann »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #35 on: October 25, 2010, 07:10:04 PM »
 Knowing that my life can not be symbolized by something so simple troubles me deeply.  -JaKa

When your time comes have the cemetery pave your gravesite instead of turfing it. Paint a double yellow line down the middle and use a STOP sign for a headstone.  
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2010, 07:19:01 PM »
Every man or club is a brand and all great brands are instantly recognizable by the simplest of symbols.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2010, 07:20:55 PM »
 Knowing that my life can not be symbolized by something so simple troubles me deeply.  -JaKa

When your time comes have the cemetery pave your gravesite instead of turfing it. Paint a double yellow line down the middle and use a STOP sign for a headstone.  

Don't you think a yield sign would be more appropriate?
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2010, 07:24:17 PM »
I keep photos of my brand right on the wall behind my counter, and like any good grandparent I am not afraid to point them out.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2010, 07:25:14 PM »
JC,
I was thinking yield!, but I opted for stop.  ;D
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bart Bradley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2010, 07:45:55 PM »
Every man or club is a brand and all great brands are instantly recognizable by the simplest of symbols.

John:

Would you rather be a simple man who led a complex life or a complex man who led a simple life?

I would rather be a simple person who led a rich, complex life that couldn't be so easily summed up with symbols from a farm implement company.

Bart

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2010, 08:23:26 PM »
for some reason this popped into my mind:  "Treat others the way you want them to treat you"

Paul,

Why would you paraphrase The Golden Rule when it has been the bane of modern architecture?  Be it John Daly with 8000 yard courses or Doak with three to four putt greens, an architect who designs to the strength of their own game creates more folly than fun.  Even outside of golf, I seriously doubt that anyone, besides us, would be happy in a world wrapped up all tight and nice in either of our personal wants or needs.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2010, 08:29:59 PM »
Maybe the golf architecture lesson to be learned from funerals is the need for simplicity, perspective and avoidance of pretense and over-absorbtion in our selves.
We are all thankful for the wonderful game of golf in our lives, but let's remember that it is a game--the greatest game ever, and capable of giving us immense joy, but a game nonetheless.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2010, 08:43:35 PM »
Perhaps a struggling faith is the best kind.

Mike

And I always thought that big ole orange and white T stood for Tennessee.  While the creation of doubt in architecture is a noble practice the practice of doubt is a sucker play.

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2010, 09:07:23 PM »

I usually play forward golf and create a new round.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2010, 09:31:10 PM »
The problem with "backwards mind golfing" is that the game is over and the outcome determined before you even play it.  Hardly sounds like a game to me.  In "forwards real golfing" you may still end up in the hole in the ground, but between first tee and final hole is a real adventure.

As for your former farmer friend, I was never one for the "John Deere Man" mentality myself, but I guess Implement Idolatry makes about as much sense as most religious devotion.  Who am I to judge?

Was the casket John Deere green?  Don't laugh, it has been done, and worse.  A distant relative of mine was recently buried with his saddle.   As for caskets, this one looks nice, but it is just crying out for the carry-bar and trim to be in Agriculture Yellow.    



Like I said I am not even a "John Deere Man" but add the yellow trim and even I might go for that.   I'd probably have them rig a swamp cooler on top, just in case.

I almost forgot, John Deere weddings are probably even more common than John Deere funerals . . .
 
One July in the midnight hour
He climbed up on the water tower
Stood on the rail and painted a 10ft heart
In John Deere green

On a hot summer night
He wrote
BILLY BOB LOVES CHARLENE
In letters 3 foot high
And the whole town said that he should have used red
But it looked good to Charlene
In John Deere green

--- From "John Deere Green," lyrics by Dennis Linde

« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 09:59:06 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2010, 09:41:55 PM »
Wouldn't it be at least a little funny to do one of those Ancestry.com searches (the one that turns up Obama and Palin as 14th cousins) on DMoriarty and TEPaul...

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2010, 09:53:42 PM »
David,

Very nice!  So it takes death to bring out your sense of humor? ;D

I get the idea that Mike Young might have seen the most John Deere (and Waffle House) weddings, being part of the Jeff Foxworthy/Ron White crowd!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Charlie Goerges

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2010, 01:59:24 AM »
I had an interesting conversation a year ago last summer with a wealthy, older, golf course owner. He commented that it's such a waste that we have to die because so much knowledge and experience evaporates from the world. I suggested that maybe he should try to pass it on (meaning the knowledge and experience). He said he tried that, he gave one of his best companies to his son and the guy drove it into the ground.

I breathe easier knowing that we don't live forever.
Severally on the occasion of everything that thou doest, pause and ask thyself, if death is a dreadful thing because it deprives thee of this. - Marcus Aurelius

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Paradox of Faith Dissipation
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2010, 09:08:09 AM »
A couple of house cleaning items before we continue:

I would be out of line to consider myself being one who suffered a loss because of the death of a fine man and father who I hardly knew.  I was fortunate to have attended his funeral and thankful for the unusual series of events which gave me an opportunity to learn something about myself and the power of symbolism.  No one needs to defend how that relates to golf course architecture.

Backwards mind golfing is a form a meditation that I use to clear my mind of obstructions that may be preventing sleep, inducing boredom or in this case inflicting emotions that are socially unacceptable for any given situation.  note:  It is not acceptable for a casual acquaintance to cry more at a funeral than the widow or family.  Backwards mind golfing simply consists of starting at the cup of the 18th hole of a recent golf round and working backwards shot to shot evaluating your skill and strategies. It is possible to go into a degree of detail where nothing else is allowed to occupy your mind. I like sometimes to award shot of the day or club of the day as well as various razzies given the general mood of the day.  I know I am not alone in this practice as it was recently profiled in a Dilbert cartoon and I seem to recall Jim Franklin telling me once he is also a practitioner.

Thank you for your patience as I attempt to formulate answers to your other questions.

JK - Good memory. I do the backward mind thing for the same reasons. I was at my Uncle's funeral last week and had to do 36 to keep my emotions in control. But good memory big fella. I am glad you are back.
Mr Hurricane

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back