Claremont CC

[Noel Freeman]

Joel-- Happy Birthday- Can we make it public that we have watched Ran Morrissett the once high and mighty player hit nothing but 3 hybrids off tees as he has a bigger aversion to the driver than Tiger Woods?

I think the routing especially on the parcel of land that houses holes 2-7 and the land for 8 and 9 is the best part of Claremont. If Jim Urbina somehow sees this maybe he can confirm (and this is what I saw in the clubhouse) that Mackenzie did not route the course at all and just rebunkered.  There is a great meandering creek at Claremont which could have been used to wonderful strategic effect but instead is hemmed in with Redwood trees and has little strategic value.  Perhaps the steep valley the course resides in on the back 9 limited options.

The course certainly plays or feels a lot longer that 5600 yards or so and the bunker restoration is terrific.  I really thought this qualifies as one of the sportier courses in the US and it would be great to be a member and play.

We played in 2:55 walking and that is with Ran stopping on every hole to look for a wayward shot-- for those scoring on GCA, Ran was even par thru 6 before the wheels fell off.

Im very impressed with this course and given our visit last month to a club in the East Bay I will not mention, this is really a superior place for the game with an old historic feel to it.

[JLahrman]

I actually just had my first opportunity to play this course a week ago. There are lots of fun holes on the course. The course feels short but it does not feel like it's 5,500 yards.

The pictures posted are great but also don't show a few of the my favorite aspects of the course. The bunkering short of the hole on the par-3 3rd (which you can't see from the tee), and just how much the 11th green is wedged into a rock outcropping. Pinball definitely possible.

[Kyle Henderson]

I played with JLahrman last week (my second and thrid loops of the course, having played it in 2009). With the removel of a large tree blocking the right half of the green, I think the short and slightly uphill 17th is one of the best par 3s' in  Northern California. Really, all 6 (!) of the par 3's are pretty good, and no two seem too annoyingly similar.

The long approach coming in on the 18th (for those attempting to reach in 2), off a hanging lie and (hopefully) carrying the first bunker before passing between the greenside traps, is deliciously fun to pull off.

[Joel_Stewart]

Can we make it public that we have watched Ran Morrissett the once high and mighty player hit nothing but 3 hybrids off tees as he has a bigger aversion to the driver than Tiger Woods?

Im very impressed with this course and given our visit last month to a club in the East Bay I will not mention, this is really a superior place for the game with an old historic feel to it.

Yes Ran's lame excuse of playing the course the way Mackenzie wanted doesn't really fly.  His swing was better than I had seen previously and he had it going but mid way it fell apart.

Claremont is really the gem of the east bay and one of the better courses in the Bay Area.  IMHO, the only other course on that side of the bay is Stonebrae and that's a very different course and membership.

I hope Jim comments on the course and what he did here.  I didn't feel the bunkers where not very Mackenzie-ish until the 11th and those holes add a very different feel to the course.  It has some very different design variety through out the course. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

No mention of final result from you two leads one to conclude a post/thread/email is forthcoming in which GMBF details a cold-blooded West Coast double crushing.

[Patrick Kiser]

... one day.   

[Neil_Crafter]

As I understand it the course owes a lot more to Robert Hunter than it does to Mackenzie. Tully may chime in as he knows some more about it than I do.

[Noel Freeman]

No mention of final result from you two leads one to conclude a post/thread/email is forthcoming in which GMBF details a cold-blooded West Coast double crushing.

Unfortunately, GMBF is averse to matches versus me as he is 0-3 and 1 in his last 4. .In fact his only win against me was Cuscowilla in 2001 back when his odometer had a 3 handle to it..

Ran is officially off the fashion faux pas deep end as well.  Having split his pants at the Olympics Cliffs course the previous round, Golf's most beloved felt the need to run to a San Francisco haberdashery and ask for the sartorial splendor of Nantucket salmon coloured trousers which were cuffed under pressure from the North Carolina Nightmare in 20 minutes.  Coupled with his suddenly Germanic sense of eyeglass wear- (something like Vuarnet's from the 80s) with sharper edges, Ran truly looks outfitted for the elderly cruise set going up the Alaska coastline.  Maybe he's going to romance some 80 year old former heiress/debutante like that guy who married Martha Raye back in the 90s-- Polident anyone?

[Mark Bourgeois]

Purposely demanding woefully outdated cuffs elevates this from farce to tragedy.

[Joel_Stewart]

As I understand it the course owes a lot more to Robert Hunter than it does to Mackenzie. Tully may chime in as he knows some more about it than I do.

I assumed Hunter was involved since he was a member at Claremont and was probably the design associate?  The plaque on the grounds and other items in the clubhouse give all the credit to Jim Smith for the 1903 design and Mackenzie for the remodel in 1929.  As much as I have followed his chronology it wouldn't surprise me if he spent very few days there.

Rans pants didn't bother me as much as the stripped multi colored Cabot Links golf shirt that clashed with the outfit.  He is a walking endorsment for Cabot Links now days.

[astavrides]

Claremont is really the gem of the east bay and one of the better courses in the Bay Area.  IMHO, the only other course on that side of the bay is Stonebrae and that's a very different course and membership.

I've played it and it's a nice course, but can a course of that length really be compared to a quality championship course like Stonebrae?   Maybe that says more about the lack of quality courses in the East Bay.    I haven't played any of the other private courses, but given equal conditioning and price, etc, I think I'd be at least equally likely to play Met, Monarch Bay, or Calippe on a regular basis as Claremont.  Maybe even Poppy Ridge or Wente.

[Padraig Dooley]

Claremont is really the gem of the east bay and one of the better courses in the Bay Area.  IMHO, the only other course on that side of the bay is Stonebrae and that's a very different course and membership.

I've played it and it's a nice course, but can a course of that length really be compared to a quality championship course like Stonebrae?   Maybe that says more about the lack of quality courses in the East Bay.    I haven't played any of the other private courses, but given equal conditioning and price, etc, I think I'd be at least equally likely to play Met, Monarch Bay, or Calippe on a regular basis as Claremont.  Maybe even Poppy Ridge or Wente.

I'd play Claremont over Wente at every opportunity.

[Joel_Stewart]

I meant in terms of private clubs.  I still feel it's a real gem of a course.  I haven't played Ruby Hill but again like Stonebrae you are talking about a big modern tournament course.

In terms of public courses, the only course in the East Bay that I would consider is Metro over Claremont. 

[Kyle Henderson]

Joel,

I agree that Stonebrae and Claremont are the best private courses I've seen on this side of the bay.

In the right hands, I think Castlewood CC (Hill) and Diablo CC could become old-school charmers that rival Claremont for local quality.

Ruby Hill has wide fairways and large flat (!!!) greens, so length and bunkers are the primary challenges. Handicaps for RH members do not travel well, I'll reckon. I know several members and have had some very enjoyable days out there (including a 100-hoel charity shindig), but judging from your posts, I do not believe it it would fit your tastes.

I'm keen to see Orinda CC, Sequoyia and Mira Vista at some point but beyond that the private scene is pretty thin east of SF, by my reckoning.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Joel,

I agree that Stonebrae and Claremont are the best private courses I've seen on this side of the bay.

In the right hands, I think Castlewood CC (Hill) and Diablo CC could become old-school charmers that rival Claremont for local quality.

Ruby Hill has wide fairways and large flat (!!!) greens, so length and bunkers and the primary challenges. Handicaps for RH members do not travel well, I'll reckon. I know several members and have had some very enjoyable days out there (including a 100-hoel charity shindig), but judging from your posts, I do not believe it it would fit your tastes.

I'm keen to see Orinda CC, Sequoyia and Mira Vista at some point but beyond that the private scene is pretty thin east of SF, by my reckoning.

Have only played Stonebrae and Mira Vista in the East Bay, and can easily recommend the latter.  The Richardson/Fine work at MV is top notch, which is a 180 degrees from a nothing-of-a-course to a very good, very fun, appropriately challenging round of golf.  If Ran et. al. are touring the Bay Area, someone should steer them tout de suite to the Berkeley hills.

[Neil_Crafter]

Joel
Sean Tully and I have written an article on the activities of the American Golf Course Construction Company which was originally headed by Charles Mackenzie and Robert Hunter Jr, until Hunter Jr took over after Charles returned to Britain. it will appear in the next issue of the SAGCA's "Golf Architecture' magazine, due out next month.

Here is what Sean wrote about Claremont from the article:

Claremont Country Club
This Oakland course was renovated in 1920-21 by William Watson and is one with close ties to Robert Hunter as he was a member. In 1926 remodelling again occurred under the direction of William Fries the club professional, however, the work was not well received and his services were dispensed with – both as architect and professional. Given Hunter’s knowledge of the course the club turned to him and he brought in Mackenzie for advice, although it is likely Hunter directed the work. The bunkering scheme was updated, and changes to greens implemented, in particular the 2nd, 3rd, 9th, 12th, 13th, 17th and 18th greens. The AGCCCo undertook the construction work in a number of stages, beginning in 1927 – company advertisements in November 1927 listed Claremont as a remodelling project – and continued  through to at least the middle of 1929.

[David_Tepper]

Has anyone ever played Contra Costa CC in Pleasant Hill? The club promotes their Vernon Macan heritage on their website:

http://www.contracostacc.org/viewCustomPage.aspx?id=51

[Jed Peters]

Has anyone ever played Contra Costa CC in Pleasant Hill? The club promotes their Vernon Macan heritage on their website:

http://www.contracostacc.org/viewCustomPage.aspx?id=51

Before Joel comes on here to insult the course, I grew up playing this course and Orinda, where my family is members still.

They are both fun tracks to chase the little round white ball.

Orinda is actually full of charm and goofy shots, I quite like it.

[Joel_Stewart]

Joel
Sean Tully and I have written an article on the activities of the American Golf Course Construction Company which was originally headed by Charles Mackenzie and Robert Hunter Jr, until Hunter Jr took over after Charles returned to Britain. it will appear in the next issue of the SAGCA's "Golf Architecture' magazine, due out next month.

Here is what Sean wrote about Claremont from the article:

Claremont Country Club
This Oakland course was renovated in 1920-21 by William Watson and is one with close ties to Robert Hunter as he was a member. In 1926 remodelling again occurred under the direction of William Fries the club professional, however, the work was not well received and his services were dispensed with – both as architect and professional. Given Hunter’s knowledge of the course the club turned to him and he brought in Mackenzie for advice, although it is likely Hunter directed the work. The bunkering scheme was updated, and changes to greens implemented, in particular the 2nd, 3rd, 9th, 12th, 13th, 17th and 18th greens. The AGCCCo undertook the construction work in a number of stages, beginning in 1927 – company advertisements in November 1927 listed Claremont as a remodelling project – and continued  through to at least the middle of 1929.

Neil:  I know you did and appreciate the work.  The only part of Tullys writing is that Hunter "brought in Mackenzie for advice" which could be broad or narrow in interpretation?  The club hosted the Mackenzie Cup last year so I'm only guessing Mackenzie was a little more involved than giving advice? 

Jed:  I'm not going to insult CCC?  LOL.  It's a 1990's Graves remodel of a 1920's course.  Nuff said.

Orinda is a decent course.  They had hired Harbottle to do some work.  I'm not sure what the plan is now, hopefully they pick someone with some classic restoration experience.

The club with the most potential for a great golf course (if they did a complete renovation) would be Richmond CC. 

[Keith Doleshel]

Claremont is indeed a really fun, neat golf course.  A great blend of quirk, charm, great bunkering, challenging greens.  Does play longer than the yardage on the card, at least it feels like it.  Similar in feel to Claremont is Sequoyah, which I also found to be an enjoyable, sporty test of golf.  Like Claremont, it is short, with tough greens and some elevation change.  It too is well worth seeking out if in the Oakland area.

Mira Vista is indeed a very good golf course.  I didn't know anything about it until playing it earlier in the year, but was a great surprise it turned out to be.  It has quality hole after quality hole, great views, and was in very good shape when I played it.  It gets my vote for top course that I've played in the East Bay, but have not played some of the older clubs, such as Contra Costa, Orinda, or Richmond.

I would have a tough time comparing Stonebrae or Ruby Hill to Claremont.  They are such different golf courses.  Not that there is anything wrong with a modern, tournament style golf course, it just is pretty much impossible to compare them to one another.

[Tim Leahy]

Joel,

I agree that Stonebrae and Claremont are the best private courses I've seen on this side of the bay.

In the right hands, I think Castlewood CC (Hill) and Diablo CC could become old-school charmers that rival Claremont for local quality.

Ruby Hill has wide fairways and large flat (!!!) greens, so length and bunkers and the primary challenges. Handicaps for RH members do not travel well, I'll reckon. I know several members and have had some very enjoyable days out there (including a 100-hoel charity shindig), but judging from your posts, I do not believe it it would fit your tastes.

I'm keen to see Orinda CC, Sequoyia and Mira Vista at some point but beyond that the private scene is pretty thin east of SF, by my reckoning.

Have only played Stonebrae and Mira Vista in the East Bay, and can easily recommend the latter.  The Richardson/Fine work at MV is top notch, which is a 180 degrees from a nothing-of-a-course to a very good, very fun, appropriately challenging round of golf.  If Ran et. al. are touring the Bay Area, someone should steer them tout de suite to the Berkeley hills.

+1 on Mira Vista, great redo by Richardson.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Has anyone ever played Contra Costa CC in Pleasant Hill? The club promotes their Vernon Macan heritage on their website:

http://www.contracostacc.org/viewCustomPage.aspx?id=51

David, I played Contra Costa two weeks ago.  It is hard to evaluate the course architecturally due to its conditioning...it plays VERY soft and needs a lot of work to improve drainage and turf firmness.  I had two drives that plugged in the fairway despite the fact that the round was played this time of the year.  It is a good "walk" (tees close to greens and not hilly), and would be a good option as a family club if one lives in the area, but on a GCA basis the course is not very interesting.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Orinda is a decent course.  They had hired Harbottle to do some work.  I'm not sure what the plan is now, hopefully they pick someone with some classic restoration experience.

The course superintendent and Green Committee are currently working on a tree management program on a hole-by-hole basis, with great results so far.  Like Claremont, Orinda has some redwoods and other trees that dominate the landscape in places that are bad for golf, shading greens.  These trees, like many on the course, are not native and were introduced over the last 50 years.  

[Patrick Kiser]

How does Claremont CC compare in terms of MacKenzie in the overall Bay Area?  

From pics alone, it seems somewhat like a cross between Meadow Club and Green Hills CC.  A lot of up and down like Green Hills CC at least.  I could be off of course, but that's the initial impression.

[Joel_Stewart]

I would rate it about even with Meadow Club (maybe just a tiny notch below) and better than Green Hills.