Donald Ross--"Climb Every Mountain?"

[Richard_Goodale]

I was struck playing Gulph Mills last Autumn how Ross seemed to route holes from hill to hill--most notably the 1st and 18th, but also some other notable holes in the middle of the course, some since "renovated."  I have vague recollections of similar routings at my parents' course, Winchester.  What was he getting at?  The "hill to hill" concept certainly does not evoke any bit of Scotland that I know Ross to have frequented, and I find it boring and unimaginative.  Comments?

[TEPaul]

Rich:

That was just Donald Ross and in my opinon he had that particular routing style which he used his entire career. If you've seen a lot of Ross courses it's not hard to see he basically used as many high tee and high green sites as he could find on any property and as many holes as he could find with both a high tee and high greens basically playing down into valleys and then up. If he didn't get up to a higher green on that particular hole he generally did on the next!

It's actually a fairly interesting style since it can make the course play quite a bit longer than the card length due to the constant uphill approaches. Ross was sort of the exact opposite of a ridge running router or a router like William Flynn who just sort of rolled his routings all over a sites topography. Ross frankly tended to just go perpindicular to a site's ridges unless they happened to be on the sides of the property like a Seminole and even then he got many of the holes coming perpendicularly off the ridges and back up to them.

I have my own theory on why that might have been his style. Being basically a high production architect I think he just fell into a habit of topo routing where he probably just identified tee and green sites by looking for all the high elevations he could find and then counting up and down the contour elevation lines and connecting them first that way with holes.

[TEPaul]

And as far as Ross ever trying to 'evoke a bit of Scotland' in what he did in America, I never heard anyone one say that--not even Ross.

I believe Ross was early enough in America that he was very much trying to build some good courses but very much trying to popularize a game in a land that didn't know much about it too.

His remark that; "It's easy to build an easy course and it's easy to build a hard course but it isn't easy to build a course to accomodate different levels of golfers. And that's what Ross did as well as any architect ever, in my opinon--accomodate ever level of golfer. He did it also by giving golfers of all levels a lot of rope off the tees and from there  ratcheted things up and became what we think of as basically a "second shot architect". That seems like a good perscription to popularize the game with his designs and probably make some respectable coin in the process. And that Ross did.

[Mike Hendren]

Perhaps the short hitter gets a turbo boost and the big hitter gets the anti-turbo boost off the tee?

[TEPaul]

Mike Hendren:

Nope, I've never seen that combo on a Ross course. The big hitter generally gets the turbo boost and the short hitter gets the anti-turbo boost.

The actual best example I've ever seen of the short hitter getting the turbo boost and the big hitter getting the anti-turbo boost happens to be Crump's Pine Valley's #11! It's fascinating! The big hitter could probably fly the ball 75yds past the short hitter and their drives might actually end up only about 10-15yds apart!

[Mike Hendren]

Tom Paul,

Two come to mind immediately:  the 16th at Holston Hills and the 13th at Beverly.  In both instances only the extremely short hitter gets a boost.  I suspect your topo map theory has more merit however,  given the large volume of his work.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Rich
I played a number of Ross courses in the past year and for me the most impressive aspect of his designs were his routings. That impression caused me to try to figure out what his secret might be. TE Paul was the first to suggest to me the theory about searching out the high points of the site and I believe that it is true. But is also true that he seemed to find the low spots too. You will find holes that go from high point to high point, but you will also find holes that go from high to low and from low to high and holes that go from high to high to low, and so on.  If there is any reaccuring practice it seemed to be Ross's ability to route holes that change elevation, which leads to designs that provide an interesting journey, designs that are unpredictable and causes one to wonder what might be on the other side of the next hill. Very appealing.

How would you characterize his routing at Peninsula?

[THuckaby2]

Tom M. - the subject of Peninsula has come up a few times before, but I've seen the plans for the Beresford Club (thanks, Tommy N!) and that resembles Peninsula like the current Sharp Park resembles what MacKenzie did there.  In other words, there's no Ross there.

Others can argue this I suppose but in my mind it's not even close.  Maybe 2-3 holes are even in the same place...

Sorry, no real Ross here in CA.

TH

[Richard_Goodale]

T3

Never played Peninsula.  I find routings that go up and down and up and down to be boring.  Much prefer the playing across and over ridges a la Muirfield.

R1

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Rich
Do you find your Ross theory of routing from hill to hill boring and unimaginative or do you actually find the Ross courses you have played boring and unimaginative?

[GeoffreyC]

My experience with Ross courses fits what Tom Paul said to a tea. Ross and Travis were the best I've seen at finding natural greensites and where possible many of them are located on high points on the property. Plainfield, Seminole, Metacomet and Siwanoy are great examples of this philosophy.  The false fronts created are a bonus in many cases I think this also creates more challenging approach shots and club selection.  Rather then boring, I find that the Ross courses i've been lucky enough to see are yard for yard more fun to play then any other.

[Tyler Kearns]

TEPaul,
       i can't quite remember where, but i recall reading that Ross located as many potential green and tee sites on high points in the initial design stage. he then tried to incorporate as many of these "ideal" sites as possible into a coherent and rythmical routing. amongst the few Ross courses i've played, Elmhurst G & CC and Riverside CC seem to follow that strategy to a certain extent, with a number of holes than ran perpendicular to rather than parallel with the contours of the property.

[TEPaul]

TKearns:

I think if I built as many golf courses as did Donald Ross, probably depending to a large degree on topos I might fall into somewhat of a routing style too unless otherwise instructed by a particular club.

Analyzing routings via a topo or even analyzing topos period is not the easiest thing to do particularly to try to pick up background and get an overall sense of the way things will look. Really good topo routing obviously really took (takes) a knack to do well and I can certainly understand a designer of Ross production falling into a basic style. Sometimes just analyzing odd contour lines and such on a topo can half drive you crazy and if your not real good at it things can look a lot different when you get out there than you think they do by just analyzing the topo.

Ross seemed to like to route by putting the clubhouse in the corner of the property if possible and routing in a sort of fan shape off of it. He didn't always have that opportunity but he sure did it that way at the Philly courses he did--Gulph Mills, Torresdale, Aronomink, Kennett and Riverton. LuLu was different but it was really early--his first in Pa. Seminole was the same with the clubhouse in the corner. The place I'm going Gulfstream is a very long narrow property--probably not more than about 500-550yds wide from waterway to AIA and is a different type Ross routing but he did  catch all the high tees and green sites on the property though.

[Richard Mandell]

Rich:

As you already know, I used to work for Dan Maples.  Dan learned directly from Ellis Maples who learned directly from Donald Ross.  Now here is my link:  I learned from working for Dan that we route golf courses high point to high point to high point (of course there are exceptions).  He said that is a concept that was handed down to him from Ellis and Ross.  That is also the way I primarily route golf holes.  The great thing about doing it this way has to do with drainage, drainage, drainage.  The concept is routing your "playing areas" at high points will not interfere with the natural swales and in turn promote positive drainage throughout the golf course.  Back in the day there was no such thing as a catch basin, so you always had to make things drain on the surface.  Ross and his predecessors were great at that.  

Although Dan and Ellis have many different design ideas than Ross, as do I, they still have general design foundations learned from the best.  I use these concepts throughout my design process as well.  It helps to understand the process of teh great architects more than specific details in some cases.

[Richard_Goodale]

Thanks Richard.  Why do the answers to these questions of us idiots have to be so simple!?  Makes me understand, finally, why there are so few good examples of "punchbowl" greens out there too!  Also makes me understand why so many of the paradigms of links golf cannot be easily replicated on land that is not blessed with natural sand based drainage.

I do, however, still personally prefer holes which use slopes on a diagonal (e.g. Olympic, the ocean holes at Pebble, much of the front 9 of Merion) rather than just up and down.  I've only played 5 or so Ross courses, so maybe I've just not seen what the old geezer could do with gravity........

Cheers

Rich

[Peter Galea]

While I was really impressed with Siwanoy, playing for the most part from top to top, Ross did an outstanding job on a totally flat site-Rip Van Winkle Country Club (a nine holer) in Palenville, NY. Hard against the Catskill Mountains it features some greens which lie flat on the ground while several are elevated a few feet. Drainage was taken care of by gentle slope to a stream running through the property as well as swales. Not to be missed if in the area.

[BCrosby]

Rich -

You need to get out to more Ross courses.  

While he did routings that pivot around high spots, he also loved (and often used) the diagonals that have caught your fancy.  

Three of the best holes at the Athens CC (11, 12 and 16) are built diagonally into a hill on the south side of the property.  

Nos. 5, 7, 8, 9, 15 and 17 at East Lake are all built on diagonal slopes.  To hold No. 5 fairway off the tee, your aim spot is the right rough.  On No. 7, comming back the other way, you aim spot is left edge of the fairway.

I could go on.

Come to ATL and I'll give you a tour of local Ross courses based on the theme of "sloped-diagonals."

Bob  

[GeoffreyC]

Rich-

If you go back a bit to the aerial of Siwanoy you can see that Ross really featured hazards, a stream in this case on a diagonal to the line of play. He uses this feature on at least three holes (par 5 5th, par 5 18th and par 4 15th).  I find use of diagonal hazards to be much more interesting then landforms because they give more options to play.  Ross was REALLY good at that.

[Tim_Weiman]

Manakiki, a well regarded Ross muni in Cleveland supports Tom Paul's theory.  About half the holes go from high point to high point.

Whatever other architectural merits this approach might have, it does provide real good exercise!

[GeoffreyC]

Tim

As I said above, I think the the false fronts created at many greensites are one architectural feature of this routing approach.

Another possible good reason to put greens on high sites is to emphasize the second shots on a course.  You tee the ball from a high site to a generous fairway right in front of you.  The choices off the tee are visible.  However, the raised greens combined with well thought out bunkering just raises the challenge a notch for the approach shot.