[JNC Lyon]

I think JNC may be trying to move us away from figure skating judging.  You know what I mean.  The judges take "reputation" into account before giving scores.  Actually, baseball umpires do too - a Cy Young winner or future HOF member will often get the iffy strike call.

Gary - I've had the pleasure to meet JNC, and he definitely gets GCA - we're lucky to have his quixotic attitude here.

Dan,
Really? I'm with Keith in that I think he is promoting "figure skating judging." He not only lumps all courses by certain architects together, but he also lumps architects together that have very little in common other than earthmoving.

JNC,
How many original designs have you played by each of Nicklaus, Fazio, Jones, and Hills? Your argument makes some fair points if true, but I don't get the sense you really have that much experience with their courses. I've played about 50 courses between the four and would have a hard time making the generalizations that you claim.  Fazio and Nicklaus are fairly different in style IMO.

When has Nicklaus or Fazio built a course for a small amount of money is relatively inexpensive to play?

[Bart Bradley]

The TN Golf Trail...The Bear Trace courses are generally less than $50.

You are a quality writer and I believe your heart is in the right place...but to generalize the way you do is not commendable.

Bart

[Dan Herrmann]

Melvyn,
The term "evangelist" has another meaning in the USA:  "an enthusiastic advocate".

JNC - Remember that "Niclklaus Designed" does not mean it was designed by Jack.  Only "Nicklaus Signature" represents Jack's involvement.  I'm betting that the firm designed a fair number of moderately priced courses.

[Tom_Doak]

JNC,

Neither Nicklaus nor Tom Fazio has built a lot of courses that have low green fees ... though there are a few exceptions (the Old Works in Montana, built with Superfund money, being one of them).  But, they have also not had many clients who wanted them to do anything of the sort; a good part of their business has been trying to build courses that looked posh enough to justify the enormous costs and fees associated with joining them.  The whole POINT was to be posh.  That may not gibe with your idea of what's right in the world, or certainly Melvyn's, or maybe even mine ... but it would be just as silly to lump all of those courses together as "unworthy" as it is for Melvyn to think golf should never have left the British Isles.  I think we owe it to any designer to judge his work one course at a time, even though I will admit that there are certain designers whose work I no longer seek out because I've been disappointed one too many times.   


Bart,

Isn't the Bear Trail pretty much bankrupt?

[JNC Lyon]

I disagree.

Golf architecture is not much different in use of money, land, and environment compared to regular building architecture. And when you look at the world of architecture, most of the most celebrated works of modern architectures are obscenely expensive, does not sit naturally with land surrounding it nor is it environmentally friendly. Fallingwater, the most celebrated private residential home would NEVER be approved today with its location and it was obscenly expensive to build and pretty impractical to live there because of its engineering deficiencies. Just look at any Gehry bulidings and let me know how positive its use of resources are.

But no fan of architecture would argue those examples are bad for the world of buildings, because they all advance and expand the what our understanding of architecture is and could be.

I certainly do not enough about building architecture to argue here, although your points make a lot of sense.

Just because something is too expensive does not mean it is automatically bad for the game. Heck, look how expensive it is to play Bandon now. Do you think it sets good example when it is so expensive?

No, I don't.  I am very eager to see the courses at Bandon, but the price always deters me a bit.  If one of Bandon's goals is to emulate seaside golf in Scotland, they could start by emulating the price of golf in Scotland.

You seem to have this very dogmatic point of view where everything is just so and no other views are allowed. You are too young to be set in your way. You really need to get out and experience everything world has to offer, both good and bad. Not everything has to be done just so. Variety is a beautiful thing, even if not all of them are to your taste.

Gosh, I hope I am not to set in my ways at this point.  I certainly have a strong opinion about things and try to articulate it to the best of my ability.  My problem comes when people see "there is no right answer, there are just opinions."  This sort of relativist, postmodernist rhetoric really bothers me, because I think leads to people to be apathetic and, ultimately, nihilistic.  There are right and wrong answers, and some opinions are worth more than others.  In reaction to such postmodernism, I am probably being overly dogmatic.  However, I think it is better to have a strong viewpoint, as long as it is informed, as opposed to no viewpoint at all.

However, I want to think I am willing to see and try new things (and golf courses).  After all, we cannot really make an objective analysis after we've taken in all viewpoints and beliefs.  As a very avid golfer, I have seen a good variety of golf courses and ways to play the game in my short life, so I do have some perspective.  I think you are correct though: variety is a beautiful thing, and it would not hurt for me to experience more of it.

[JNC Lyon]

The TN Golf Trail...The Bear Trace courses are generally less than $50.

You are a quality writer and I believe your heart is in the right place...but to generalize the way you do is not commendable.

Bart

I did not know that about the Bear Trace.  I guess I learn something new every day.  To quote one of my favorite movies, Finding Forrester, "I'll take poor assumptions for 200 please, Alex."

[Tom_Doak]

"No, I don't.  I am very eager to see the courses at Bandon, but the price always deters me a bit.  If one of Bandon's goals is to emulate seaside golf in Scotland, they could start by emulating the price of golf in Scotland."


JNC,

FYI, the courses in Bandon are no more expensive to visitors than most or all of the world top 100 courses which are in the UK and Ireland.  St Andrews cost $20 to play when I lived there in 1982, but it's $250 now.

[Bart Bradley]

Bart,

Isn't the Bear Trail pretty much bankrupt?

Tom:

The courses remain open to my knowledge.  Do the mismanagement of the state and the difficult economic times, mean that Nicklaus' group did not build some courses that are "relatively inexpensive" to play?  We all know that today's climate can lead to course closures, even well designed ones...right Tom?  

Bart

[JNC Lyon]

"No, I don't.  I am very eager to see the courses at Bandon, but the price always deters me a bit.  If one of Bandon's goals is to emulate seaside golf in Scotland, they could start by emulating the price of golf in Scotland."


JNC,

FYI, the courses in Bandon are no more expensive to visitors than most or all of the world top 100 courses which are in the UK and Ireland.  St Andrews cost $20 to play when I lived there in 1982, but it's $250 now.

Tom,

I played Sandwich (next year's British Open site) for 60 pounds (90 USD) in February and 80 pounds (120 USD) in March.  This is less than Bandon would charge for a golf-only guest at those times.  I played a few of the best London courses for much cheaper than that.  Royal Dornoch is 85 pounds in high season, much cheaper than Bandon in high season.  I think St. Andrews is an exception.

[Adam Lawrence]

JNC - that's true, but only because sterling is weak-ish against the dollar at the moment. A couple of years ago when it was near as dammit two bucks to the pound, Sandwich would have been more expensive than Bandon. My point is that the difference is marginal, and not really significant. And the London clubs vary wildly - Sunningdale, for example, will cost you GBP 115 for the Old, GBP 95 for the New, or GBP 155 for 36 this winter - that's a lot steeper than Bandon. Wentworth is more expensive still!

[David_Tepper]

JNC Lyon -

Here are the current summer season green fees (all stated in pounds) for a number of British golf clubs:

Royal Troon - 165
Turnberry - 155 for hotel guests, 175 for non-guests
Sunningdale Old - 190
Royal Birkdale - 165
Royal Lytham - 140
Royal Aberdeen - 150

Multiplied by the current exchange rate of $1.58 to the pound, all these British courses (and I could site many more) are at least as expensive as the courses at Bandon.

DT

[Andy Troeger]

JNC,
I'll actually add Cougar Canyon to the list of Nicklaus courses that are relatively inexpensive. It was done by Chris Cochran, but Nicklaus' name is on it as well. I actually think the course is really great too and definitely more natural looking than much of their other work. Its perhaps one of the best courses that doesn't get much mention here. I know Matt Ward would disagree, but I think its the second best public in Colorado (behind Lakota Canyon for me).

As others mentioned, the five Bear Trace courses are other examples, plus Old Works.
  
From Fazio, I would include Butterfield Trail but I think its a little more expensive than the ones from Nicklaus. I actually was pleasantly surprised as well by The Frog at the Georgian. I only played it because it was close the highway and I had the afternoon free while driving from Atlanta to Birmingham, but the course was actually quite enjoyable and perhaps about $70.

Unless I missed it while reading through recent posts, you still haven't answered my question about the number of courses played by those designers?  

[Chris Johnston]

"When has Nicklaus or Fazio built a course for a small amount of money is relatively inexpensive to play?"

JNC - the Dismal River course didn't cost a lot to build, nor does it cost a lot (relatively) to be a member.  We keep it moderate to meet our goal to attract a wide range of "purist" members - money isn't the main or only reason for us to exist.  For us, passion for the game trumps economic means.

And it is safe to say that, deserved or not, criticism of Dismal River has not been stifled.  

[JC Jones]

JNC Lyon -

Here are the current summer season green fees (all stated in pounds) for a number of British golf clubs:

Royal Troon - 165
Turnberry - 155 for hotel guests, 175 for non-guests
Sunningdale Old - 190
Royal Birkdale - 165
Royal Lytham - 140
Royal Aberdeen - 150

Multiplied by the current exchange rate of $1.58 to the pound, all these British courses (and I could site many more) are at least as expensive as the courses at Bandon.

DT

Why is it that we always quote the summer season rates for courses except when we quote the rates for Bandon?  Then, it is often the off-season or the replay rates.  AND, don't forget that those rates are for resort guests, only.

[Mike Sweeney]

JNC,

Neither Nicklaus nor Tom Fazio has built a lot of courses that have low green fees ... though there are a few exceptions (the Old Works in Montana, built with Superfund money, being one of them).

Tom

Tom Fazio did Town Oyster Bay GC NY with his uncle :

http://www.oysterbaytown.com/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={F5EDEC47-D633-40FB-BE56-1D0F60C3B0EC}&DE={0635B1C7-C377-4555-A9C0-5067BBC8C337}

They also did Ridgefield GC (CT)

http://ridgefieldgc.com/CourseInfo.aspx

Oyster Bay is a little tight due to the property and Ridgefield has one 9 that is very good and another that is good.

[A.G._Crockett]

JNC,

  
From Fazio, I would include Butterfield Trail but I think its a little more expensive than the ones from Nicklaus. I actually was pleasantly surprised as well by The Frog at the Georgian. I only played it because it was close the highway and I had the afternoon free while driving from Atlanta to Birmingham, but the course was actually quite enjoyable and perhaps about $70.

The Frog is one of the Fazio courses that I've played that I liked; I got skewered here many years ago for saying that I liked it, and that was probably 6 or 7 years ago, so I'm not sure that anything recent has stifled criticism any more than it ever has.

However, I don't think The Frog was built to be less expensive.  The developer misjudged the growth rate on the I-20 corridor, and built a conference center and golf course that just never really got off the ground.  The intent was for The Frog to be pretty exclusive, certainly far moreso than it is.

I would add Finley GC at the Univ. of NC course to a list of "affordable" Fazio courses, though it bugs me as an alum to do so; the price of playing there tripled after Fazio burned through $8 to obliterate rather than renovate Finley.  I actually date my interest in GCA from my first two plays of Finley after Fazio's work, wondering how the University could have spent so much and gotten so little for it.

[Carl Rogers]

Finnish Architect, Alvar Aalto, stated that no building should be evaluated until it is 50 years old.

Perhaps an evaluation of golf course architecture should be done with a significantly greater passage of time than what is typically done.  

Things do take time.

[Peter Pallotta]

"I would add Finley GC at the Univ. of NC course to a list of "affordable" Fazio courses, though it bugs me as an alum to do so; the price of playing there tripled after Fazio burned through $8 to obliterate rather than renovate Finley.  I actually date my interest in GCA from my first two plays of Finley after Fazio's work, wondering how the University could have spent so much and gotten so little for it."

AG - I think this whole discussion is right there, in a nutshell, i.e. my guess is that, in the University's view, it didnt get 'so little' for the $8 million it paid Fazio. Instead, it actually got quite a lot - it got to triple the green fees immediately, and not despite the fact that Fazio burned through all that money but precisely because he burned through all that money. IMO.

Peter

[A.G._Crockett]

"I would add Finley GC at the Univ. of NC course to a list of "affordable" Fazio courses, though it bugs me as an alum to do so; the price of playing there tripled after Fazio burned through $8 to obliterate rather than renovate Finley.  I actually date my interest in GCA from my first two plays of Finley after Fazio's work, wondering how the University could have spent so much and gotten so little for it."

AG - I think this whole discussion is right there, in a nutshell, i.e. my guess is that, in the University's view, it didnt get 'so little' for the $8 million it paid Fazio. Instead, it actually got quite a lot - it got to triple the green fees immediately, and not despite the fact that Fazio burned through all that money but precisely because he burned through all that money. IMO.

Peter

Peter,
You are, unfortunately, dead on here.  The $8 was privately raised, so I imagine the increase in greens fees has been pretty profitable.  Lost was a charming George Cobb design that was in need of TLC and updated turf, drainage, etc.   But UNC got the name it wanted on the scorecard, I suppose.

[David_Tepper]

"Why is it that we always quote the summer season rates for courses except when we quote the rates for Bandon?  Then, it is often the off-season or the replay rates.  AND, don't forget that those rates are for resort guests, only."

JC Jones -

My post regarding greens fees at notable British courses was in response to JNC Lyon's statement that the Bandon green fee were higher those of comparable British courses. I was simply stating facts that illustrate his comments were mistaken.

Regarding Bandon, its green fees and its relevance as a "public" golf venue, I have offered my thoughts on the thread you started on that topic. I do not believe a specifically cited the green fees at Bandon (either on- or off-season) in any of my comments on your thread.

DT      

[SL_Solow]

JC;  Two topics on the front page and on each you attack the fee structure at Bandon.  Is there some unspoken motive at work.  Mike Keiser et al risked his own money, not public land a la Saint Andrews or Dornoch or long ago paid for property like the older privates in England you cited, and bought acreage far off the beaten path because he wanted to build good golf courses.  He then ignored the current model and hired what were then less commercial architects who would build courses in line with his view of great golf. Now, because his success  has created a demand which allows an opportunity to get a return on his money you seem to resent the fact that he charges a healthy fee but one that is  less than other destination courses such as Pebble Beach.  Seems to me that as long as the capitalist system is at work, we should be happy that a project like this can make money; it might encourage others to build more like it.  I am assuming they are doing fine although I haven't seen the books.  But there appears to be some unspoken suggestion that the owner owes the golfing public an opportunity to play at a fee which someone (you?) has decided is reasonable.  Bandon is difficult to get to for most of us.  If the fee gets too high, a lack of rounds will alert the ownership.  There are lots better targets to complain about if we want to look for problems in american golf than the Bandon model

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

I am not sorry that golf was exported worldwide, in fact I am well pleased. The game I know and the one that was called Golf which was exported worldwide was a Walking & Thinking Game

Play this game anywhere in the world and no one will be happier than me. The feathery, gutty and Haskell ball periods honoured this tradition, with all walking and thinking their next shot.

To build a course in an unsuitable environment, one that requires carts because it’s too hot to walk means that the whole game from players through to the grass on the course and Greens are subject to artificial aids just the keep them alive. Let the player ride then you have changed the basic concepts.

So the attitude is “I have so I can” is to prevails, money still  being the answer to all thinks, yet its failed and failed badly in Iraq and Afghanistan thanks to corruption.

If you want to play Golf and design Golf Course why not do just that and we would not be having this discussion

Melvyn.       

[David_Tepper]

"So the attitude is “I have so I can” is to prevails, money still  being the answer to all thinks, yet its failed and failed badly in Iraq and Afghanistan thanks to corruption."

Melvyn -

This statement is appalling and beyond contempt. You really should be ashamed.

I might add that your ignorance is rather profound as well, especially given that it was the British who introduced golf to tropical and sub-tropical climates in countries like India, Singapore, South Africa, Egypt and Hong Kong.

DT

[Jim Nugent]

And Arthur Hills did a pretty fine job with renovating the University of Michigan course.

University of Michigan or Michigan State?

[Melvyn Morrow]

David

I was watching a news report some weeks ago, it was one of SKY News programs which had a report from America in which it was clearly stated that much of the billions set aside for the rebuilding of Iraq has ‘disappeared’  which was apparently Bush’s administration concern pre-war, Nevertheless a large amount has gone.

Not my report but that of an American News channel, so please do complain, please shout out loud how appalling it is but do not have the impertinence to attack someone who had nothing to do with it but report the facts from a news programme.

This is so typical of you to attack before checking your facts. In future please check the facts before deciding to release a broadside, to many are being caught these days in so called ‘Friendly Fire’ incidents.

As for ignorance are we not seeing that nearly every day. Being British, American or whatever Golf can be played worldwide, and yes while we had an Empire golf went with the Scottish Troops around the world. Yet here again ignorance is being shown, the courses we all walking courses based upon the Scottish model, no carts, no super lawns, they used sand greens, crushed termite mounds Oh yes and they all walked in all temperatures, keeping faith and the spirit of the game intact, they did not go seeking how to make the game easy. I have played in India Brazil and Nigeria, I have seen and plain earth courses and Teed off 3M high from a termite mounds, played on red sandy greens all in the heat and humidity on courses that worked with the local environment.  Yes David I am proud that throughout all the heat and humidity we Brits still honoured the game and its traditions, but that David takes balls and commitment.

After Ran’s recent comments and guys leaving I thought you might have checked the facts before launching an attack against me, yes please talk about ignorance, but look to your mirror when you do.

In the spirit of this site and golf I would be happy to hold out a hand of friendship as we have not met, but that is totally down to you.

Melvyn

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