Walking only public golf courses in the US?

[Tim Pitner]

Eric,

Is Bandon really a walking only PUBLIC course?  Query, if the only people who can afford to play there anymore are members of private clubs in other cities then doesn't Bandon just become a 2nd (or 3rd, or 4th) club for them that they visit once every 1, 2 or 3 years?

Bandon has rates below $100 in late Nov-Feb.  Even at peak rates for resort guests, the fees are $225 and $110 for replay, which will result in an average cost of about $170.  That's obviously expensive, but how many inferior courses are out there that charge about the same amount or more?  Lots.  Why pick on Bandon regarding price when it offers such a quality product?  

[Eric Smith]

Regarding carts -- when I think of the prospect of building cart paths on our farm, I not only think that they would be ugly on the landscape, but I think they would also cost a small fortune to build and maintain. So, absolutely I agree with you Gary (and Mike).  If there is a way to have the carts without the paths on a golf course built on a farm in Tennessee then I'm all for having them. The paths themselves are the problem in my mind - not the carts. We already have barns so we could simply convert one of them for the carts.

JC,

All of the examples so far are big time operations. Chambers spent tens of millions. It has a much larger focus I suspect.  Erin Hills also had other goals in mind. Their buildings alone cost who knows how many millions. None of these examples have Mike Young endorsed weenie machine shacks with a dozen or so rusted pull carts lined up outside. I would.  And slow roasted pulled pork everyday!

Tim,

I think with good gca it could work in Nashville if the owner already had the land.

Ideally, I'm referring to golf built and operated on a lean and mean budget. Mostly locals are going to play it. If its an easy walk its an easy walk, so sell the golf community on how easy the walk is! Maybe they'll be surprised.

My dad and I looked at buying a local golf course years ago and it was a profitable course. They were doing approx. 28K rounds in a 8-9 month season. I still look at the #'s they provided from time to time and my goodness the cost of their payroll was ghastly. Half of the revenue went to payroll!  At the time I was a GM at a new 9 hole course built by two smart business men with a passion for golf. They were frugal in that they had me there 65 hours a week in season and I did it all.  (Other than of course our super superintendent David Helton and his 2-3 man crew.) I had some hourly fill in helpers, school kids, and they pitched in and helped us a great deal. I would guess that payroll was 20% of revenue at the time. I enjoyed the job for the most part and I really got the itch to do it for myself one day -- along with David.  The clubhouse with a basement cart barn cost as much as the golf course construction did!  But they needed the clubhouse to satisfy the 45 owners who bought condos that lined the fairway. This was their community center. Most were retired and most rode in carts. The cart revenue was big to the bottom line.

This is all a pipe dream for now. I have always felt that we have what I think would be a terrific golf course sort of just waiting out there for some greens and tees and fairways. I wouldn't build condos around it, so I wouldn't need the big clubhouse.  I would build a cabin or two for overnight stays.  A few more if we won the bid for the 2017 Dixie Cup.

[Tim Bert]

Eric - Didn't mean to imply it couldn't work.  I literally meant that I don't think you can fill the tee sheet.  If the project is inexpensive by owning the land, moderate build costs, no paths, etc then filling the sheet and "working" might be two different things.  Add carts but no paths, and maybe you could even completely fill the tee sheet.

I just think that from a purely walking perspective, there isn't much pent up public demand in this city (and probably many others).

As you know, I am walking in almost every possible scenario except 1) I'm being hosted somewhere and the expectation is that I ride and 2) walking isn't allowed. 

I'm just calling it as I see it and from most of the conversations I have and people I observe, walking isn't a priority or even something that many people have interest in doing.

[David_Tepper]

Eric Smith -

Have you contacted the USGA regarding this topic? I would think they could provide you with much helpful info on the questions you have, both regarding "walking only" courses and the costs & benefits of deciding whether to build cart paths.

DT  

[Pete Lavallee]

I hear that Bandon utterly cryit doon the use of golf carts.
Bob

Bob,

Bandon does have carts for those who can produce a Doctor's certificate of need. Indeed on my first play at Bandon Dunes, on 9-11-2001 no less, we were accompaniied by a retired couple from the Cal Club who each had a cart. The cart must be driven by a caddy from the facility. They both walked quite often and showed no outright indication that either were disabled.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Eric,
If you built a course on your farm that wasn't miles long, had minimal walks from the parking lot to the clubhouse, clubhouse to the range, cluhouse to the 1st and 10th tees,  then you would probably have quite a few people walkiing it, more if you offer a 9 hole rate.

I think you can get away with little to no paths if you aren't looking to build a cart ballers type of golf course. There are many courses in my area that don't have them and our soils are not of the free draining type.

[Michael Huber]

Schenley park golf course in Pittsburgh is a walking only course.  Of course, there are quite a few caveats such as:

1.)  Its extremely compact.

2.)  Its owned by the city and its budget is minimal

3.)  The teeboxes are astroturf so it's not exacly a course with a conventional business model

4.)  With all that in mind...there are plenty of older guys/seniors that walk it on a regular basis. 

[Phil_the_Author]

Matt,

Sorry to correct you, something I so rarely do, but there is a major differnce between the Green and Black courses and why carts are allowed on the Green whereas they are not allowed on the Black.

First of all it is ONLY an insurance liability issue. ALL carts used on the Green course go from the first to the second hole via the underground tunnel. All carts from the 17th of the green back to the 18th ALSO MUST use this same underground tunnel as the fencing wouldn't allow anyone to try to cross Round Swamp Road directly. The problem for the Black is not the crossover from 1 to 2 which is easily done through the same tunnel, but rather the crossover from 14 to 15. Even on the odd chance that someone would ride all the way back to the tunnel, they would have to do so ALONGSIDE Round Swamp Road or cross it directly. In either case the insurance liability is too large to permit it and that is why there is no cart usage on the Black.

Those who use the specialized handicapped ones amount to maybe once or twice a month (if that) and must sign their and their children's lives away before they can get them.

For many years even the Green course was a walking-only course and this was changed in the mid-1990's only after better fencing was put up so that the ONLY way to get from 17 to 18 was via the underground tunnel.

[JC Jones]

Eric,

Is Bandon really a walking only PUBLIC course?  Query, if the only people who can afford to play there anymore are members of private clubs in other cities then doesn't Bandon just become a 2nd (or 3rd, or 4th) club for them that they visit once every 1, 2 or 3 years?

Bandon has rates below $100 in late Nov-Feb.  Even at peak rates for resort guests, the fees are $225 and $110 for replay, which will result in an average cost of about $170.  That's obviously expensive, but how many inferior courses are out there that charge about the same amount or more?  Lots.  Why pick on Bandon regarding price when it offers such a quality product?  

Tim,

I "picked" on Bandon because Eric brought up Bandon, specifically.

If the only expensive cost associated with Bandon were the off-season green fees then I would see your point.  Couple that with a night's stay and a flight out there and your off-season round is more like $1000.

Nevertheless, you say "that's obviously expensive, but how many inferior courses are out there that charge ....."  I never made any remark as to the quality of the architecture of Bandon nor it's value relative to other high end resort courses.  My statement is limited in scope to the notion that Bandon is truly "public."  At it's present cost, though it provides a superior product and experience, Bandon is only affordable to the private club crowd and thus, it is not "public."

[Mike Wagner]

Based on my experience this year at Erin Hills, having a walking only course is definitely viable.

In fact, after talking to hundreds of players after their rounds this year, most concluded that going walking only as the best thing we ever did (other than getting the course in great shape.....and tweaked) - it makes the experience THAT much better.

I think there's a lot more walkers out there than we give credit.  I think it's a given that the course needs to be extremely good to pull it off.

[Tim Bert]

JC - I know you are just making some noise but public means John Doe can slap the money on the counter and play the course.  It doesnt mean he can afford it but that is a distinction of expensive vs affordable, not public vs private.

A lot of things are expensive in life - a trip to Disney World, a ski vacation, taking your family to a sporting event, etc.

Anyone can save up their pennies and go play at Bandon if they save long enough and that's how they choose to spend their money.  The same can't be said at Augusta without an invitation.  But you knew that already.

Edit: I probably shouldn't have gone this path as I truly don't want to detract from Eric's thread. If you want to debate this then let's take it to another thread or private messages - or I can delete my comments.

[Eric Smith]

Tim,

Don't worry about detracting from the thread - it took one post from Nuzzo to help me see more clearly what I couldn't get my head around on my own -- it wasn't golf carts per se but cart paths. I don't know how to proceed with a walking only thread when i'm probably not genuinely asking about that after all!  Please Tim, debate JC on this thread. Maybe we'll learn something. He's been a little crab apply (thank you Peter Palotta) anyway lately and could use a bit of perspective from a sensible fella like yourself.

[Tom_Doak]

Eric,

My focus with clients has always been mostly about trying to do without cart paths.  If we can do that, and I can come up with a layout that's very walkable, I hope I can convince many golfers to walk.  But it's awfully hard to ask a client to forego the business of all the golfers who would want to take a cart, especially in America.

All that said, I do believe that Bandon is all the more special because you don't have to put up with the distraction of carts in the landscape, and golfers rushing around in front of you and behind you.  Of course, in Scotland and Australia you generally don't have those distractions, either.

[Kris Shreiner]

Eric, It generally rests on: the quality of the course, smart, short transitions in the routing, and it's ease as a walking track. If the experience playing it is challenging and memorable, given the other elements are in order, I think you certainly could have a "Walking Preferred" facility. I would always hesitate to dictate the "only" part. There are folks who, for a vareity of health/age reasons, really couldn't enjoy their golf without the assistance of a powered  cart ...why would we want to deprive them of the chance to play your great track?!

Mike makes a good call on the no path idea. A possible compromise, to minimize excessive turf wear and poor asthetics around high traffic areas, might be the use of naturall products around transition /tee areas where limited cart play could be permitted. I've seen: crushed coquina, smaller, fine-mixed aggregate, larger base-rock material covered with medium sized stone and double ground wood chips, all used with good results as a path surface, depending on soil/drainage conditions. The key is to adapt materials to what the course/weather conditions will allow and keep the look consistent and compatable with the terrain.

Your dream is certainly doable! Keep investigating, compiling information and talking to folks...you might be surprised how quickly some financial support could develop if the ground is as good as you believe it is.

Cheers