Courses that don't overseed

[Tom Doak]

Thanks to the time difference, I'll beat all the Aussies to the punch of noting that NONE of the Sand Belt courses in Melbourne overseed in winter.  

Most of them are hybrid bermuda now, but Royal Melbourne still allows a mixture of Poa annua and common bermudagrass to alternate dominance in the winter and summer seasons.

The Texas Tech golf course will not overseed their course, which is one reason we're looking at a lot of evergreen vegetation to break up the winter doldrums.  It should play interesting in the wind and cold!

[A_Clay_Man]

All the courses I've played in the last two months here in the four corners DO NOT OVERSEED. Up until today evrey green and fairway have played like a tarmac. Wonderful fun accenuated by watching people re-evaluate what constitutes a good shot.

[Matt_Cohn]

Southern Hills and Oak Tree don't overseed.

Hardly anywhere in Oklahoma does though.

[jim__janosik]

Brad,  with respect WWWRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGG

There  is an agronomic reason.  If  a  course does  250 rounds a day in the winter  on a bermuda surface  the Tees would be dirt  by March,  especially the par threes.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Adam,
How are you? Hope your move has gone well.
Are the courses up there warm season turf like bermuda, I'd be suprised if they were.
Played Apache Stronghold in Jan. with my course owner. First thing he said, why don't they overseed. The rye and bent had actually gone dormant because of the cold and it looked like dormant bermuda. My guess is the same thing happens in your area.
All you anti-overseeders remember people don't come to AZ to play golf in the summer. Most rounds and a very high percentage of revenues come in the winter. We only overseed fwys and tees, but we will do 6,000 rds in Feb. If we didn't overseed our tees, you would be playing on dirt very soon. Areas of the country that grow bermuda but don't have as much winter pressure can get away without overseeding anything. But, if your a public course in AZ, it would be pretty tough not to at least overseed tees and probably fairways.
Concerning the comments about Desert Forest. They tried to grow bent grass fairways, that's one of the reasons they didn't overseed as the bent doesn't go dormant because it doesn't get that cold in Carefree. They don't try and grow bent fwys anymore and I doubt those bent fwys were to firm and fast in the warmer months.

[Brad Klein]

Jim, okay, overseed tees lightly. Which is what DF does. I hold to what I said with respect to fairways and rough, though.

[jim__janosik]

Yes I concur  with that approach.  I  get a bit puckered  at times Brad because  of the undertones that  overseeding is
a  national conspiracy  fueled by  evil forces  trying to  distrupt  daily play for  profit motives.  I can assure you that
most all operators  in CA  and AZ  would love to stop overseeding but  no one wants to be the First to do it.

Another  side of the equation  is  are you for denying a person from  Chicago  the  joy of coming to Palm Springs  for a  three day weekend  to play golf in February in short pants  on green grass?

At private clubs  in  Dallas  why  overseed?  Yet  400  people
paid  130K  to join  Bighorn because  they overseed.

All  the  arguments  against or for  anything on this forum need  to be adjusted for  regional application.  Have a  good
weekend.

By the way,  some of the best  conditions I have ever played on were at  the  Plantation  G.C. in  the Dallas  area in  January
on dormant hybrid

[Brad Klein]

A new motto: "Bermuda all the way."

I wouldn't even object to Tommy Naccarato in (Bermuda) short pants as long as it's on brown, dormant (Bermuda) grass.

One prominent Phoenix-area superintendent recently told me that to achieve overseeded fairways you need to spend about $25,000 on seed, $15,000 on fertilizer, hire 2 fulltimers during the season to handle the extra work (mowing) and deploy an extra 30-million gallons of water.

That's not a conspiracy. Most turfgrass managers would prefer not to, but they're forced by members/golfers expecting a certain "look."

By the way, I think this is one of the many useful areas on this Discussion Group where a discussion of turfgrasses and greenkeeping goes hand-in-hand with a certain style of classical course architecture.

[Chris Kane]

Tom Doak,

Is the hybrid bermuda you're referring to the stuff known here as Santa Ana?  Every sandbelt course now has them except Royal Melbourne and Commonwealth.

Commonwealth has native couch in the summer and winter grass at other times.  People won't stop whinging about the quality of the fairways, and many members are saying that we should install Santa Ana like everyone else has.  I hear many people describe Commonwealth as a poor course primarily becuase of the fairways.

Mike Clayton told me that Metro is playing way too short now becuase of the fairways: they play similar length in winter as they do summer.  The expectation for perfect fairways triggered by Metropolitan during the Accenture Matchplay last year has forced many clubs to make perfect turf their only priority.

[Shane Gurnett]

Chris

Santa anna is but one strain of couch, and in my view the least desirable one. Only Royal and Commonwealth have a native couch, alternating with Poa in the cooler months. I think this is the ideal combination and would be horrified if either went to pure santa anna.

Whats wrong with Commonwealths fairways? As of two days ago they were superb, as is Royal at this time of the year. Interesting also to hear so many complaints about Royals fairways during the Heineken. The pros and punters are so used to those Metro styled, manicured airport runways that anything less than pure carpet is frowned upon. Simply bizzare? Dont forget that in the scope of things, turf quality ranks way down the list of most important aspects at any course. Unfortuntaly because of the Accenture at Metro last year, everyone here now looks at the grass quality as being the single most important thing. I dont understand it and never probably never will.

[A_Clay_Man]

I know how unpopular this stuff is but once again the dreaded KK won't turn to dirt when its dormy and played excessivly. At least I have never seen it happen.

[Chris Kane]

Shane,

Don't get me wrong, I think the whole thing is stupid too.

I have no problem with Commonwealth's fairways: most of them are great (probably about 12/15).  A couple are overly patchy, but they will pick up - there isn't a problem.

Why do people place turf as their priority.  Because its easier to the average punter to admire perfect fairways than it is great design.  Many people are now telling me that Metro is a better course than Royal becuase "Metro has better fairways".  They are even saying that Moonah Links is great because of the fairways.

Conditioning is beginning to replace great design as the thing people are looking for.  It's sad, and a blight on golf.

[Mike Clayton]

Shane
Metro's fairways are 'perfect'. RM has fairways that are not 'perfect' but as far as I can see they are perfect to play golf from.
  Legend couch -Ranfurlie,Ocean/National and Peninsula North is much like the commons at RM and Commonwealth and may prove to be better than santa ana.

[Chris Kane]

Mike,

As you said, Royal's fairways are perfect to play golf from.  They also don't run like the Santa Ana does.

Santa Ana has that carpet-like feel to it - the Legend Couch is better from a design standpoint, but I unfortunately I can't see the sandbelt clubs changing when they're on a winning formula.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

Pine Tree doesn't overseed, and I don't believe The Medalist does either.

The success or failure of overseeding is directly related to the abilities of the green superintendent to correctly guess the weather patterns for the winter.

Vegas has yet to create a line on that endeavor !

More golf clubs are seeding their tees with Tiff Eagle and other new green grasses, eliminating the need for overseeding, even though they may continue overseeding their fairways.

[Mike Salinetti]

Brad,

There is a great little 9 hole course on Hilton Called Spanish Wells that does not overseed. In the winter the greens roll about a 15.

[mike salinetti]

I mean Hilton Head

[Jeremiah_Daly]

I just got back from a trip to Shoal Creek which did not overseed so that their bermuda would be better in their peak seasons in the spring and fall.  They also burned the bermuda rough because (they told me) it grows back very lush.  They have a great set of par 5's there...

[nandoal]

Bel-Air CC doesn't overseed anymore.  They did one year because the greens comitteee wanted it. I think It set the course pack ten years.  The fairways are 8 different shades of green.  Beautiful and great course to have that blemish.  The super does a great job.  It tough to grow grass on small mountain.  The soil is awful. As hard as it is having the demanding membership down his throat.  Sometimes I wish the mebers at Bel-Air would do what they are good at, like go make another movie, or make another million.  Don't try to grow grass that you know nothing about.

[Don_Mahaffey]

I've worked in Palm Springs, Orange County, CA, and AZ.
Let me say this about overseeding. In most cases, overseeding bermuda with perennial ryegrass is to the agronomic detriment of the bermuda. Thus, I understand Brad's stance against overseeding. But, as Jim Janosik writes, (an experienced desert Superintendent) there is exceptions to the rule. PUBLIC courses that do large volumes of rounds in areas where the bermuda goes totally dormant do have agronomic reasons TO overseed. The problem is, modern overseeding methods have gone overboard resulting in negative consequences for the year round golfer. Overseed is not a bad practice when it is properly executed. When it is used to mask problems with bermuda coverage, when the ryegrass becomes the primary turfgrass, or when it is done in temperate coastal climates, the negatives out weigh the positive benefits. But, when done properly, overseeding does have its applications. Brad, please don't blindly dismiss it as folly without fully researching the subject.  

[Brad Klein]

Don, thanks, which is why I undertook this post. As one means to do research.

I gather there's an important difference we need to make. I suspect my concerns about lush, green ryegrass fairways pertains to courses that do this primarily for color and to create an alternative, disposable surface.

But it sounds like a light overseed program to strengthen the turfgrass - not necessarily to provide a lush green surface, merely a serviceable one - is an agronomically proper way to proceed, especially when traffic is heavy.

[GolfingAT6]

i live in and work in the pinehurst area and the only course here i can think of that isnt overseeded is The National.  All 8 Pinehurst courses are overseeded wall to wall.  With 8 courses i feel that you could pick one a year and not overseed to give it a rest. Ive heard that pinehurst overseeds mainly for march april and may. If i had 2 courses i would alternate them that way during the cold months one would be great and the other would be great in the summer months. I think agusta national has the best overseeding procedure.....use bermuda to keep the soil from washing away and make it a rye grass course.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I played the Wilmington Muni on my way back from FLA and they overseed greens and tees only. One had better hit small ball - big ball when playing from dormant fwys/roughs.

Many of the FLA courses, from Stuart in the south to Eustis in the north, lost their seed to heavy rains. It was most noticeable on the greens rather than the fwys. Cold weather was another factor contributing to the sparse conditions of the greens.

[Joe Andriole]

There are many variations on overseeding: only greens,greens and tees, wall to wall, etc.  My preference is for rough only or maybe rough and tees.  Dormant bermuda is a wonderful surface and contrasted with rye rough is visually striking.  Overseeded fairways and bermuda rough often create flyer lies in the fairways which are actually longer than the "rough"

[Jim_Bick]

To confirm what Scott said, Governors Club in Chapel Hill has not overseeded for the last several years. Our fairways have improved every year since. This winter for the first time the tees, other than the par-3s, have also not been overseeded. The thought is that they will also perform better without the transition competition.

To me, overseeding implies trying to "improve" offseason conditions and the legitimate questions are about the nature of the improvement and its cost, both direct and indirect. If winter and early spring are part of your prime seasons (Florida, Arizona, etc.), it's a different issue and mixing the two is more confusing that enlightening.

Here in NC, as an anti, I'd argue that our prime time is spring and fall. If overseeding delays the bermuda by a month, that's a third of spring on substandard fairways. That's a high cost. In fact, my experience is that it takes longer than that. There are also a lot more people noticing problems in May than complaining about dormant Bermuda in January.